CATS or no CATS?
- Thread starter Acatala7
- Start date
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Acatala7:
if you're into polution , move to LA
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Actually he's closer to Houston. Didn't they get the smog honor this year?
if you're into polution , move to LA
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Actually he's closer to Houston. Didn't they get the smog honor this year?
Makara
Viper Owner
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BillViper:
I am considering an exhaust upgrade for my 94 RT/10
Wanted to know your thoughts on Cats or no Cats.
I live in Texas.. am I going to have issues getting this thing inspected with no Cats?
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Get some high flow cats and don't worry about getting your car inspected. Plus you can sleep easy at night knowing that your 8 mpg are less poisonous than if you had ripped your cats off completley for an extra horsepower or two.
I am considering an exhaust upgrade for my 94 RT/10
Wanted to know your thoughts on Cats or no Cats.
I live in Texas.. am I going to have issues getting this thing inspected with no Cats?
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Get some high flow cats and don't worry about getting your car inspected. Plus you can sleep easy at night knowing that your 8 mpg are less poisonous than if you had ripped your cats off completley for an extra horsepower or two.
BlackACR
Enthusiast
I have no cats on my car. No, it does no stink. No, it does not have fumes. Also, passed emissions, don't listen to what everybody says unless they have experience. There was a heated debate over this a few days ago. The cars run better, less heat in the side sills and, most will still passes emissions.By far the best mod I have done on my car to date. You will need a set of 02 simms, or a different PCM to keep it from running rich or, sticking. Once they are tuned you will be glad you cut them.
Talk about smog go to any local airport, one jet liner puts out more emissions taking off then my car with no cats will ever produce. The new cars burn very, very clean. Even with out cats.
Talk about smog go to any local airport, one jet liner puts out more emissions taking off then my car with no cats will ever produce. The new cars burn very, very clean. Even with out cats.
Dante'00ACR
Enthusiast
Hey Tony,
Did it pick up the power throughout the power band or just at higher rpm's? Also how did it change the sound...does it sound more deep and throaty or a bit raspier?
Thanks in advance
Dante
Did it pick up the power throughout the power band or just at higher rpm's? Also how did it change the sound...does it sound more deep and throaty or a bit raspier?
Thanks in advance
Dante
Janni
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackACR:
Talk about smog go to any local airport, one jet liner puts out more emissions taking off then my car with no cats will ever produce. The new cars burn very, very clean. Even with out cats.
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Great comparison, when's the last time YOU took 350 people for a 1000 mile ride at 500 MPH?
The real test is your emissions before the cat removal and after.
Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD.....
Talk about smog go to any local airport, one jet liner puts out more emissions taking off then my car with no cats will ever produce. The new cars burn very, very clean. Even with out cats.
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Great comparison, when's the last time YOU took 350 people for a 1000 mile ride at 500 MPH?
The real test is your emissions before the cat removal and after.
Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD.....
BlackACR
Enthusiast
Dyno stayed the same till about 4,000rpms then the car picks up power quickly.Not to much louder just deeper. I gained 10.5rwh and 10rwt. And, for Janni a better comparison. Go to any top fuel event. One dragster produce more emissions than my car with no cats in one run compared to a couple of months of driving.
BlackACR
Enthusiast
The whole point is that my car passed the federal mandated emissions test. If it is good enough for the tree huggers, it is good enough for me
Janni
Enthusiast
The lowest common denominator has never been good enough for me....
BlackACR
Enthusiast
I knew I should have a bought an old Shelby Mustang that way I could not be criticized for not having any cats on the car. Even thought my Viper still burn much cleaner. Go figure...
Makara
Viper Owner
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackACR:
Go to any top fuel event. One dragster produce more emissions than my car with no cats in one run compared to a couple of months of driving.
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A top fuel car burns about 6 gallons on a single pass plus about 6 during the burnout and waiting for the lights. Unless you fill up your tank once every few months, you are putting more pollutants into the air than the dragster on a single pass. You can not deny the air quality improvement, despite added traffic, in major cities that now require pollution controls. Lets say your viper has 15,000 miles at a generous 10 mpg. I can't remember what gas weighs per gallon but lets say it is 8 lbs per gallon. You have put over 12,000 lbs. of pollution into the air with that one car alone. A cat won't change that number but it will help reduce how bad that 12,000 lbs. of pollution is for us. I'm not a tree hugger. I love big engines and motorsports as much as anyone here. It just seems that putting a high flow cat on is a minor inconvenience for having cleaner air.
I understand that you passed your emissions without cats. I personally would (and did) go the route of high flow cats to assure a cleaner burn.
Go to any top fuel event. One dragster produce more emissions than my car with no cats in one run compared to a couple of months of driving.
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A top fuel car burns about 6 gallons on a single pass plus about 6 during the burnout and waiting for the lights. Unless you fill up your tank once every few months, you are putting more pollutants into the air than the dragster on a single pass. You can not deny the air quality improvement, despite added traffic, in major cities that now require pollution controls. Lets say your viper has 15,000 miles at a generous 10 mpg. I can't remember what gas weighs per gallon but lets say it is 8 lbs per gallon. You have put over 12,000 lbs. of pollution into the air with that one car alone. A cat won't change that number but it will help reduce how bad that 12,000 lbs. of pollution is for us. I'm not a tree hugger. I love big engines and motorsports as much as anyone here. It just seems that putting a high flow cat on is a minor inconvenience for having cleaner air.
I understand that you passed your emissions without cats. I personally would (and did) go the route of high flow cats to assure a cleaner burn.
BlackACR
Enthusiast
The burn out puts out 10 times the emissions as the run when you add them together then you get what I am trying to explain to you. More emissions then my viper. DUHHH!!!!
Makara
Viper Owner
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackACR:
The burn out puts out 10 times the emissions as the run when you add them together then you get what I am trying to explain to you. More emissions then my viper. DUHHH!!!!
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Whatever polluter
At least you pass emissions rather than assuming that having a viper makes you immune. In the grand scheme of things, a few vipers going catless doesn't make a big difference but I just think that people should think along the lines of, "what if everybody did what I did?"
The burn out puts out 10 times the emissions as the run when you add them together then you get what I am trying to explain to you. More emissions then my viper. DUHHH!!!!
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Whatever polluter
At least you pass emissions rather than assuming that having a viper makes you immune. In the grand scheme of things, a few vipers going catless doesn't make a big difference but I just think that people should think along the lines of, "what if everybody did what I did?"
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Sorry to disagree with my good friend Janni and some of the rest of you, but I just can’t believe that cars today, with or without cats are doing enough polluting to worry about. Thirty years ago yes, today no. That’s progress and if air pollution is still a concern then it looks to me like the trucks, buses, airplanes and boats (do they have cats?) are at the top of the list.
genXgts
Enthusiast
I have a V-8 powered Formula sportboat, and the garbage that is tossed out the back is hideous, and I keep the motor in great trim, synthetics, fresh everything, yada, yada.....
While this is truly an assumption, I'll guess that a boat dumps many times the crud into our air, and cracks about .5 mile to the gallon at full whallop which is quite often when I'm at the helm.
When I get my GTS the decision to go with or without cats will be a hard one, I am leaning to some Random's to feel a little less guilty when on the water, whatever works I guess..... and maybe get on Janni's good side!
Incidentally, this post was interrupted by a phone call from my possible Viper purchase, (could this be meant to be??)and I made an offer for the car, flat out, owner said he would think about it, to say I am hoping for a return call is an understatement of the new millieum.....
till next time,
Ryan
While this is truly an assumption, I'll guess that a boat dumps many times the crud into our air, and cracks about .5 mile to the gallon at full whallop which is quite often when I'm at the helm.
When I get my GTS the decision to go with or without cats will be a hard one, I am leaning to some Random's to feel a little less guilty when on the water, whatever works I guess..... and maybe get on Janni's good side!
Incidentally, this post was interrupted by a phone call from my possible Viper purchase, (could this be meant to be??)and I made an offer for the car, flat out, owner said he would think about it, to say I am hoping for a return call is an understatement of the new millieum.....
till next time,
Ryan
Elite1
Enthusiast
For all of you that forgot or never took a chemistry class in your life, burning 12,000 lbs of fuel doesn't mean you put 12,000 lbs of pollution into the air, unless of course you consider water and carbon dioxide to be pollution. Fuel that is combusted is simply turned into different compounds. Some, good, some not so good. This is why they invented those computer thingies in our cars. To regulate the combustion process. That's why there are all those O2 sensors over the air intakes and exhaust, to maximize the burn. And before anyone jumps up and says CO2 is a pollutant, just remember trees need CO2 not O2, they would die without CO2.
Rich Detert
Viper Owner
For the most part, just about every emissions testing program I've seen is more about $$$$$$$$$$$ money than really cleaning the air up. In Missouri if your car doesn't pass and you go to a "Recommended service repair garage" after you spend the required amount of money,if it still doesn't pass you get a waiver (meaning that it doesn't have to pass).
One woman that I was talking to at the Gateway Clean Air testing station told me her horror story.
She took her truck in and it failed, so she took it to the recommended service garage. They charged her $325 for what was supposed to be what sounds like a basic tune up (air filter, spark plugs, distributor cap & rotor), which is rediculiously high even for that. She took it back to the testing station and it failed again. She took it home and her husband looked at the truck. The service garage had put absolutely no new parts on it, they had just charged for them. She went back to the garage to question them about this and demand her money back. They told her that it didn't matter if it passed because she had spent the required amount and the only way they would give her her money back was for her to give them back her receipt showing she had spent the money in an attempt to cure it's failing the emmisions test. No receipt, no waiver. The only thing they didn't know is that she had made a copy of the receipt.
The sad thing is this isn't the only story like this, it happens all the time.
The only reason there are any emmissions testing programs is that it's easier to go after John Q. Public than a major Corporation. The public will whine a little and live with it, corporations will move to a third world country and do their pulluting there.
If any of you really knew about the pollution the D.C. actually puts out you'd be shocked. If the EPA knew there would be major fines, but no one is going to risk their job to turn them in.
To answer the original question:
I took the cats off my 94 Viper (which BTW only has one oxygen sensor on each side so you don't need the sims) and there weren't any problems with it passing emmissions.
For that matter, they didn't even test it for one of the things they had failed another of my cars for weeks earlier (I think it Co2, but I'm not sure without digging for the paperwork).
As far a HP and torque gains it added about 10 to each of them.
There is no bad smell from the exhaust.
The only thing possibly bad is that at certain rpm ranges it does drone in the interior with the hardtop on.
And if you're only getting 10 mpg out of your's, there's something wrong with it. Driving mine hard the worst I've ever gotten is 15 mpg out it, but I usually average 22 mpg (a mix of hard and easy driving).
One woman that I was talking to at the Gateway Clean Air testing station told me her horror story.
She took her truck in and it failed, so she took it to the recommended service garage. They charged her $325 for what was supposed to be what sounds like a basic tune up (air filter, spark plugs, distributor cap & rotor), which is rediculiously high even for that. She took it back to the testing station and it failed again. She took it home and her husband looked at the truck. The service garage had put absolutely no new parts on it, they had just charged for them. She went back to the garage to question them about this and demand her money back. They told her that it didn't matter if it passed because she had spent the required amount and the only way they would give her her money back was for her to give them back her receipt showing she had spent the money in an attempt to cure it's failing the emmisions test. No receipt, no waiver. The only thing they didn't know is that she had made a copy of the receipt.
The sad thing is this isn't the only story like this, it happens all the time.
The only reason there are any emmissions testing programs is that it's easier to go after John Q. Public than a major Corporation. The public will whine a little and live with it, corporations will move to a third world country and do their pulluting there.
If any of you really knew about the pollution the D.C. actually puts out you'd be shocked. If the EPA knew there would be major fines, but no one is going to risk their job to turn them in.
To answer the original question:
I took the cats off my 94 Viper (which BTW only has one oxygen sensor on each side so you don't need the sims) and there weren't any problems with it passing emmissions.
For that matter, they didn't even test it for one of the things they had failed another of my cars for weeks earlier (I think it Co2, but I'm not sure without digging for the paperwork).
As far a HP and torque gains it added about 10 to each of them.
There is no bad smell from the exhaust.
The only thing possibly bad is that at certain rpm ranges it does drone in the interior with the hardtop on.
And if you're only getting 10 mpg out of your's, there's something wrong with it. Driving mine hard the worst I've ever gotten is 15 mpg out it, but I usually average 22 mpg (a mix of hard and easy driving).
jcaspar1
Enthusiast
15 mpg is the worst!?!? Either the Gen I's only came with a 6 cylinder or your idea of hard driving is shifting from 1st to 3rd rather than using the skip shifter. I get 22 with freeway only driving, 8-10 to and from work and probably 4-5 with hard (dragstrip/racetrack driving) driving. Maybe one of your throttle bodies is stuck closed!
I know a way to cut down on pollution...no more drive thru windows for food!!
ok from my general knowledge of smog laws(california)all cars 74 and later have to have cats no matter how clean your car runs.Black acr how do they do the test in texas is it a idle test or a dyno test like in california because to my understanding there are five main gas's that come out of your pipe's under normal driving co,co2,02,hc,nox co2&o2 the only good one's.Now nox only come's out about 2500 degree's or above and hc&co come into major play if you have a missfire or about a million other problems with your engine now here is the thing i can't seem to understand but hopfully someone can help me with on most cars there are at least two o2 sensors one before the cat and one after the cat the one before reads the raw data and the one after the cat reads what is coming out of the pipe so they basically work together for engine management but they do not even send a signal to the computer until the car is warmed up and the cat is lite so did you dyno it cold because even new cars run really rich until the cat is working but mabey they are a little less stringent in texas.
BlackACR
Enthusiast
The car passed at idle, and at 3000rpms. I have the Mopar ECU which manages the rear O2's with no cats. It calibrates the PCM to run correctly with no cats. That way the car does not run super rich but, instead it runs almost perfect on the air/fuel ratio.
Geoff Green
Enthusiast
I don't want to get into this debate. However, I would think that if you want to do something illegal, no matter what it is, you would not want people to know where you live. There are a lot of people that have nothing better to do than to contact the authorities.
If you mention that you are self employed and feel that you should not have to pay income tax because you create the work for many people, be prepared to have the IRS contacted. Fortunately for the self employed the IRS agrees that those with there own business should not have to pay as much tax. That is why there are so many tax breaks for business. Not as many as in the past, but the government still very much appreciates the self employed. I don't feel the IRS responds to many of these calls, but they do.
I am getting sidetracked here. My point is that there are a lot of bitter people in this world and even on this board. So just be careful on what you say.
I have already been audited twice by the IRS in my office for 40 hours each time over the past 28 years. They came away with nothing. I always start my conversation with them that I try to pay as little tax as possible and possibly going into grey areas, but never do anything illegal or commit fraud. Also, never try to hide income. If you are audited they are going to wonder how you afford the things you have without the necessary funds going through your account. That is a no-no.
If you mention that you are self employed and feel that you should not have to pay income tax because you create the work for many people, be prepared to have the IRS contacted. Fortunately for the self employed the IRS agrees that those with there own business should not have to pay as much tax. That is why there are so many tax breaks for business. Not as many as in the past, but the government still very much appreciates the self employed. I don't feel the IRS responds to many of these calls, but they do.
I am getting sidetracked here. My point is that there are a lot of bitter people in this world and even on this board. So just be careful on what you say.
I have already been audited twice by the IRS in my office for 40 hours each time over the past 28 years. They came away with nothing. I always start my conversation with them that I try to pay as little tax as possible and possibly going into grey areas, but never do anything illegal or commit fraud. Also, never try to hide income. If you are audited they are going to wonder how you afford the things you have without the necessary funds going through your account. That is a no-no.
BlackACR
Enthusiast
Who said anything about being illegal. We are talking about for off road and track use for no cats. I'am confused now.. How does the IRS have anything to do with this anyway. I could post my address if you like to report my track car. HE HE.
Janni
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackACR:
I could post my address if you like to report my track car. HE HE.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If it's only used on the track why are you having it emissions checked? Most folks only do that to register their cars for on the road use.
You've been pretty adamant before that this is NO BIG DEAL - so why now say your car is not driven on the street?
I could post my address if you like to report my track car. HE HE.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If it's only used on the track why are you having it emissions checked? Most folks only do that to register their cars for on the road use.
You've been pretty adamant before that this is NO BIG DEAL - so why now say your car is not driven on the street?
BlackACR
Enthusiast
I made a point about emissions to show that if a car is tuned it will run cleaner than most cars with cats. And, I made my point. Most people tune by Air/Fuel ratio's. Which is what we did. So, for the hell of it we decide to test it for emissions. To our suprise we passed very well. I drive the car very rarely on the street. On occasion I drive it to the track. So whats your beef. I break the law more in my Yukon speeding than in my Viper with no cats. Oh no, you know what city I live in I better not speed anymore.
KenH
Enthusiast
I am assuming the gain of about 10RWHP/TQ is comparing catless to stock cats? Has anyone dyno'd the high flow cats compared to catless? Also curious about the difference in sound between catless and high flow cats.
While I will probably always run cats, you do have to wonder about the government at times. There is an uproar here in Oregon because the state is talking about putting a special tax on hybrid vehicles to make up for the lost revenue in gasoline taxes due to the vehicles efficiency. That's a great way to encourage environmental friendliness!
-- Ken
While I will probably always run cats, you do have to wonder about the government at times. There is an uproar here in Oregon because the state is talking about putting a special tax on hybrid vehicles to make up for the lost revenue in gasoline taxes due to the vehicles efficiency. That's a great way to encourage environmental friendliness!
-- Ken
Makara
Viper Owner
You don't have to be a tree hugger to, given the choice, take an alternative that is less environmentally destructive. I enjoy motorsports as much as the next guy. I take my Jeep offroading, have a blast in my viper a couple times a week, and tomorrow I'll be at the track in a brand new 400 hp wrx (freshly painted viper red of course). Pulling the cats off of any one of my cars might give me a few horsepower more than high flow cats. Do I feel that just a few hp (what is it 2-3?) gained from going catless is worth it? No. Would I even feel it? Doubt it. My home theater also ***** power like there is no tomorrow. Every time I turn the amps on all the lights dim for a few seconds. Am I going to stop watching movies? No. Do I turn the amps off when I leave? Yes. Why do I live this life of contradiction? Because I want to enjoy my life to the fullest while trying to be somewhat environmentally conscious. I'm not going to sell my viper because it gets crappy mileage but I'm not going to pull emissions controls off of it to see only minimal gains as long as I have other options.
Do we really pay thousands for emissions equipment on every car we buy? If that is true, how could it be that a Kia can sell for under 9,000 brand new?
I am certainly not trying to give anyone crap for having fun in their vipers. Janni brought up a point that I happened to agree with. I am not particularly emotionally attached to this thread and feel no hostility towards the catless drivers. I merely am taking place in a discussion, not an argument.
Do we really pay thousands for emissions equipment on every car we buy? If that is true, how could it be that a Kia can sell for under 9,000 brand new?
I am certainly not trying to give anyone crap for having fun in their vipers. Janni brought up a point that I happened to agree with. I am not particularly emotionally attached to this thread and feel no hostility towards the catless drivers. I merely am taking place in a discussion, not an argument.
HogWhisperer
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul Bilberry:
LOL! Janni, you are too much! Always playing the devil's advicate aren't you. In the market for an electric car? LOL!
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Cool! I see you already own one...
BTW, how's that 1-ton diesel powered pickup doing? They don't pollute much...
j/k, don't get bent....
LOL! Janni, you are too much! Always playing the devil's advicate aren't you. In the market for an electric car? LOL!
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Cool! I see you already own one...
BTW, how's that 1-ton diesel powered pickup doing? They don't pollute much...
j/k, don't get bent....
BlackACR
Enthusiast
Can some one say overkill. Janni, a few guys that are running without cats are not going to end the world. I can not count how many cars I see running down the road burning loads of oil. I guess we should just impound there cars. These whole global warming thing has never had any solid proof. Just people like you that are brain washed by the media on a daily basis to believe it. New vehicles burn 10 times cleaner than just 20 years ago. Yet there are more and more fees and, regulations every year towards cars and trucks. In my opinion the whole emissions problem is a cash flow for the government.
Makara
Viper Owner
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackACR:
Can some one say overkill. Janni, a few guys that are running without cats are not going to end the world. I can not count how many cars I see running down the road burning loads of oil. I guess we should just impound there cars. These whole global warming thing has never had any solid proof. Just people like you that are brain washed by the media on a daily basis to believe it. New vehicles burn 10 times cleaner than just 20 years ago. Yet there are more and more fees and, regulations every year towards cars and trucks. In my opinion the whole emissions problem is a cash flow for the government.
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The cars burn cleaner because of these fees and regulations. Come to LA during the summer if you don't believe that cars pollute.
Can some one say overkill. Janni, a few guys that are running without cats are not going to end the world. I can not count how many cars I see running down the road burning loads of oil. I guess we should just impound there cars. These whole global warming thing has never had any solid proof. Just people like you that are brain washed by the media on a daily basis to believe it. New vehicles burn 10 times cleaner than just 20 years ago. Yet there are more and more fees and, regulations every year towards cars and trucks. In my opinion the whole emissions problem is a cash flow for the government.
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The cars burn cleaner because of these fees and regulations. Come to LA during the summer if you don't believe that cars pollute.
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