Fell short of new Viper today

[Diablo Joe]

Today I drove 2 hours to West Palm Beach to pick up a 98 Viper GTS.I was so excited I couldnt sleep last night.I had already negotiated a price and Palm Beach Motorcars assured me this car was a jewel that I couldnt pass up.Heres an excerpt from an email I recieved.

[You will not find one nicer than this one. Not
accidents, no paintwork, NO EXCUSES! Plus it only has 3400 one-owner miles.
Being a '98 it could have a little factory warranty left, depending upon
it's in-service date. We can offer avariety of extended warranties if you
wish to purchase one. We are open Saturday from 8:30 until 5:00pm. This is
a Jaguar, Aston Martin, Land Rover franchise and, like most, highline
dealerships we close on Sunday. I'm sure that you have lots of questions]


I was so excited I went to the bank yesterday and had a check drawn up.Anyway,when I arrived everything seemed in order.The salesman,insisted on driving the car over to me and consequently drove over a curb.No biggy ,I was pumped.The first thing I noticed was the lower front of the bumper had been scraped.When I pointed this out the salesman stood there quietly.Then I noticed the hood had been painted.When it was sprayed it must have trapped air underneath the paint as there was an air bubble the size of a nickel that would move as I pushed it.Then on the right rear quarter I noticed more paintwork.A 12 inch run.This is something no one could miss.12 inches!Hardly no paint work.This car had been hit in the rear.The salesman says"Man,you must do this for a living" I told him no but that I do pay attention to what I buy when its 60k DOLLARS!This car was supposed to be stock but was missing a muffler.I didnt know that was a special edition.I was so pissed I at least wanted to drive it so we went out on I95 where this guy could show me what a big piece of crap he's selling.It pulled hard to the left.Obviously from the accident.He said it needed a toe adjustment,I just agreed.The exhaust rattled badly almost as if it were detonating but tripped no lights.It was also slow.I went out of my way to floor the car in first because Ive heard Vipers are tail happy and I wanted to see first hand how it compared to my Supra.Well,it didnt even break the tires loose.Anyway,I took it back,gave them the keys and politely declined the purchase.He gave me back my deposit and I left.Im so upset but after spending so much time on here and hearing everyone say to be patient,thats all that was going through my head.Im sure Ill find the right car soon enough and I wanted to thank everyone
here for all the advice.Fortunately,SOCRATES gave me a ride in his yellow 2001 a few days ago and I had a real Viper to compare this one to.I feel sorry for whoever buys that car as the owner will surely have a bad taste in their mouth about Vipers.Sorry so long but I had to get this off my chest.

Joe

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Sad that there are so many liars and cheats out there. But good for you that you didn't let your enthusiasm of getting a Viper override your common sense. Keep looking. The classifieds on this board is where I found my mint condition RT/10.

I just met Justin today and saw that beautiful 01 bumblebee Viper of his.

 

[HogWhisperer]

You did good though! Kudos to you for not letting the shyster get the better of you. Keep looking, you'll find what you're looking for.

Good luck!

 

[Diablo Joe]

Im going to look at a clean 97 GTS w/Borla and 7k on Monday.Whats it worth?

Joe

 

[Ron Hickey]

Prices today on the 97's range widely. If the 97 is blue/white, and perfect, I would guess $53-55K would represent the absolute top end of what you should pay. And only if the car has a transferable Chrysler warranty. A red car of the same vintage, in my opinion, would be worth a couple K less. You might even find a good car in the high $40's. Condition and color choice should dictate what you eventually pay; get a car you like. There are plenty of excellent preowned Vipers for sale out there. You don't even have to look at a rat like the one you saw, much less settle for one. After that last experience, I wouldn't buy a Viper until I saw the underside while it's up on a rack. And don't buy a car without a Chrysler warranty.

Be patient. You will find what you are looking for.

 

[Jeff Torrey]

Congrats.- Best thing that never happened to you. There are others. This story is bound to have a good ending. Best wishes.

 

[Diablo Joe]

Im just glad Ive spent so much time here. It seemed I knew more about the car than the dealer did. Unless he was playing Columbo... Oh well,I've found two more cars within 200 miles that interest me. I'm sure this has been hashed out before but what do you guys think about buying a car sight unseen from a VCA member? There were a few good deals in the classifieds but to far from me to check out.

Joe

 

[TurboSnake]

Try www.autotrader.com

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

If your Looking for a GTS. Deery Dodge has a Silver with blue stripes, and with the ACR mags It only has a few miles on her
2001 Their in Burlington Iowa phone 1-888 754- 8484 ask for the Viper guy Donny Hansen. Tell them you heard about the car from Wayne Kielkopf asking price 63000.

 

[Qualitywires.com]

hey Joe...Good for you for picking out the flaws.

Those guys are scammers. I talked to them about a gts before and I told them that I would sue if they sold me a wreck car. They changed their tune about selling me the red GTS.

My rule # 1. Don't buy from a "specialty car dealer". Always buy from known names and there's tons of good stuff on this board. I got mine off this board and very happy with it except running in circles with my warranty stuff...but that's another issue.

When I first bought my 1994 Rt/10 from this specialty dealer...he told me that the car was never wrecked and so on. Kind of like what you went through. I bought off excitement, which I'm a lot more wiser to now, but I should of done what you did. I got scammed! I took this guy to court and he settled for $10,000.00. (I paid $42K) and had the car for a year. I sold the car with 46k miles on it (orig 22K miles when I bought it). I disclosed everything about the car to the owner and had him sign that the car was in a previous accident and he knew about it. I sold the car for $34,900.00 and he's been happy with it ever since. I went and bought my silver GTS from this board. Car is perfect, except a minor oil leak in the sensor.

Glad you were smart about it. I wish I was, but in all..I came out ahead and didn't really lose anything.

 

[MES]

This is why you should never buy a car without first looking at it. South Florida has a lot of those type of dealers, anyone looking for a car from down here better be careful. TTBADBOY check out Motorcars of South Florida it's where I bought mine. All their cars were perfect condition but they also want a bit more than the other dealers. Good Luck!

 

[Toby]

holly underwear! I was talking to this dealership too. The guy told me this car was brand new. He also told me about you coming down to look at the car. He was trying to get me to put a deposit on the car before you came to look at it. What got me a little weary is that they bought the car at auction. I would think most 98 Vipers with 3k miles in "cherry" condition would not go to auction. This looks like one big scam and come Monday the owner of that place is going to hear about it. By the way I got him down to 55K, and extended warranty and maybe even delivery. He was bending you over! sorry. Thanks for the information. I am glad I chose not to buy it anyway. Does anybody ever do business honestly anymore?

 

[Qualitywires.com]

I guess this joker is still at it. Buyers beware of this dealer. This is the dealer that scammed me.
http://www.jtownspecialtycars.com/id113.htm

You must be registered for see images

 

[genXgts]

All right gang, this thread has me nervous.

Booked my flight today to go check out a GTS, I'll leave all info nameless until I seal this thing up as I lost my previous deal on Friday, not a good day, but maybe for a good reason...

My new deal (today) is private, VCA member, original owner, 100% stock car, how can I verify this?

My plan is to run the car up on boards, then jack it up to get under the car and check the rails from front to back. All TSB's are up to date, new rear seal gasket, and intake gaskets, etc. Anything else I should look for?? I know the obvious from months of research on here, bolster wear, yellowing caliper logo's etc, wheelwell clips in original locations, overspray, etc., but any tips would be appreciated.....

Lastly, is 20,000 miles not a long time to go on original Michelins? And the car is still running them, owner admitting they are nearing the end of their usefull life, but man...... 20,000 miles on one set????
I have burned through a set of XGTZ's in 3 months of "spirited" driving (non-Viper) and I don't feel I drive very hard, honestly?
Issue has me somewhat spooked as I don't feel a set of soft compound tires with a treadwear of 180 can last 6 years and 20,000 miles, please correct me if I am wrong!!!!

thanks for any input, I need it now if ever!
Ryan

 

[Qualitywires.com]

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by ab on 01-07-2003 at 08:01 PM</font>

 

[Ron Hickey]

GenX --

Take the car out for a drive (10-15 miles, enough to heat it up). Then put it up on a lift -- that's the best way to check out the frame and any underside damage. A car with 20K miles is bound to have a few underside scrapes; a Viper owner who has never once scraped his front fascia or underside of the side sills probably doesn't drive the car. Scrapes are not the issue here, you're looking for indications of off-road excursions and contact with foreign objects. Not to mention oil leaks, frame damage, etc. Check the level and condition of the fluids. If they're not perfect (ie, dirty or low), I would assume the car did not receive the best maintenance and lubrication.

If the car is a 6 year old GTS, and the seller is the original owner, the best you can hope for is to transfer the original extended warranty which will probably expire in 2003. If the seller is not the original owner, make sure the warranty is transferable. Unless you've got an in with a local dealer, buying any kind of Chrysler additional warranty is unlikely. This is not to deter you, but you need to be aware of all this when you purchase the car. I'm personally aware of 3-5 cars of that vintage which have developed oil leaks, requiring replacement of the timing chain cover and/or gasket, oil pan gasket, and sometimes front and rear main seals. (The latter is a good time to install an aluminum flywheel.) And intake manifold gaskets often need replaced after 5-6 years. This can all be done under warranty. Generally, this vintage GTS does not suffer from the antifreeze-headgasket problems of the Gen-I; the oil leaks I describe are easily fixed. But without an existing warranty, the repair will come out of your wallet.

As far as the tires go, I put 32,000 miles on my 97's Michelin MXX3's in less than three years. But I agree with your assessment that 6-year old MXX3's with 20K miles are due for replacement. So you're looking at paying $1300-1500 for a new set of rubber.

Factoring in all of the above, you may want to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of paying a little more for a car of 98-99 vintage which won't need immediate tire replacment and has more than a year left on the warranty. There is no right or wrong here -- it's your decision. If warranty is not important to you, and you like the car, its color, its condition and the price, then go for it. If you're compromising on one or more of these issues, then maybe looking a little longer is a better choice.

Good luck!

 

[Diablo Joe]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TobyT:
holly underwear! I was talking to this dealership too. The guy told me this car was brand new. He also told me about you coming down to look at the car. He was trying to get me to put a deposit on the car before you came to look at it. What got me a little weary is that they bought the car at auction. I would think most 98 Vipers with 3k miles in "cherry" condition would not go to auction. This looks like one big scam and come Monday the owner of that place is going to hear about it. By the way I got him down to 55K, and extended warranty and maybe even delivery. He was bending you over! sorry. Thanks for the information. I am glad I chose not to buy it anyway. Does anybody ever do business honestly anymore?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh man Toby you should have heard them.They told me they got the car from the auction but it was a trade in at the local Porsche dealer and they have a deal that they get first dibs on high exotics due to the fact that they only sell used Porsches at the Porsche dealer.I had the car for 55k and 1250 for a 2 year powertrain warranty.We should start a list on shady dealers,like a hall of shame,and put Palm Beach Motorcars at the top of the list.

Joe

 

[jcaspar1]

I can't see why people buy used cars from dealers anyways. You will pay more and most of the used Viper horror stories I hear involve dealers, almost always exotic car dealers. I bought mine from a private seller on autotrader. In a private sale you can size up the person, how he cares for the car, maintance records etc. If his garage is a mess you know how he cares for his cars.
The clear exceptions are the dealers you see posting on this site (Woodhouse, Tator, etc). I would sooner buy a car site unseen from them than one from an exotic dealer after only a short test drive.

 

[Toby]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TTBADBOY:
Oh man Toby you should have heard them.They told me they got the car from the auction but it was a trade in at the local Porsche dealer and they have a deal that they get first dibs on high exotics due to the fact that they only sell used Porsches at the Porsche dealer.I had the car for 55k and 1250 for a 2 year powertrain warranty.We should start a list on shady dealers,like a hall of shame,and put Palm Beach Motorcars at the top of the list.

Joe

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He told me (before I found out they got it from a auction) is that some guy traded it in on a new Austin Martin. I cant wait until Monday. I will post my findings then.

 

[genXgts]

Thanks for the tips Ron, have them all down on paper.

This particular car has the TSB's performed, new intake gasket fix, as well as rear main seal, two biggies that seem to crop up on the board. These were done under warranty, and the owner is stating there is no existing warranty, it came with 3 year/60K standard, and he didn't purchase any extra. I will verify with the dodge dealer on Monday on a VIN run.
Good to know that tires can last that long, was feeling I was getting feed some lines to make the sale, maybe in my foolish youth I like the smell of rubber in the morning!!

thanks again,
Ryan
I think a post area for dealership experiences, good or bad, is a great idea, giving a chance for the dealer to debate their version of events for open disucssion after the heat has died down a bit, and would **** out the trouble dealers. Bottom line for me, any dealer car other than Tator, Pemberton, and perhaps Eric Lee at Latham, is outta the question. These guys know the cars and the issues associated with them (as do 90% of private owners), all others are looking to flip the car for max buck and hope to never see you or the car again. My .02......

 

[Ray W]

TT & Toby T, I am at your service if need be. In FLA I do believe
in buying from original owner only. Dealers of Exotics buy low
and sell high. Only if you need special financing would you
ever consider them. Much easier to look at an unretouched one
owner who has kept records.

 

[Diablo Joe]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TobyT:
He told me (before I found out they got it from a auction) is that some guy traded it in on a new Austin Martin. I cant wait until Monday. I will post my findings then.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man Toby,I was thinking today that its bad enough I drove 2 hours to see this piece ,but what if you would have flown down here and saw that? Or worse if you had that car shipped all the way to Cincy.D@mn .These people dont give a d@mn.

Joe

 

[Toby]

I called this dealer back today and wanted to see if he would come clean. I acted like I didn't know about Saturday's visit. He sort of did but also threw in a few lies. He told me the car was not sold and the car was looked at last Sat. and the guy still wants the car badly but is torn between this one and a 97. He did come clean about the exhaust, he did tell me about the bubbles on the hood and blamed Dodge on faulty workmanship. He failed to tell me about all the other paint work, how poorly the car drove, and the scraped up front end. He told me this car is 100% ready to go, drives great, looks great...just like a new car..etc. I would guess the car was either raced or crashed and the thing is worn out. They stuck the factory wheels and tires back on it and "****" its a new car again.(a guess) I bet if you check the production date of the tires... would they match up? Scam all the way. I offered him 50K just to see if he would bite and he said no as they had to pay extra at auction to get such a nice vehicle so 55k was his best offer. I said no thank you but I am looking at many others.