Gen-2+. Interference fit liners. They normally won't move short of cutting the block in half, lol.
Found 2 Metal Shavings in oil. What now?
- Thread starter jmillsUT28
- Start date
Gen-2+. Interference fit liners. They normally won't move short of cutting the block in half, lol.
I've been reading this thread since it started... Thanks for all the photos, sorry this happened to your car J. So nice of everyone to jump into help.
If one of you guys get a chance could you answer a couple of questions? I really want to understand what went wrong as this thread evolves.
If I understand Dave correctly, sending out a dirty oil sample to blackstone after every change would tell a story about abnormal engine wear before problems begin... Correct?
How many samples until you get a number that tells you how the engine is actually wearing? If buying a car would one sample be a good diagnostic practice?
This is the first time I have heard about oil samples being sent out. IF you can get that much information out of these tests why aren't more people doing this? We should try for a club discount...
Was the filter ever opened to see if that chunk is trapped in the filter? IF the chunk made it to the bottom of the pan wouldn't it have been stuck to the plug like the smaller pieces rather than flowing out with the old oil?
What is a dog bone in an engine?
Last one...
What is that rusty looking goo and what is it doing in J's engine?
If one of you guys get a chance could you answer a couple of questions? I really want to understand what went wrong as this thread evolves.
If I understand Dave correctly, sending out a dirty oil sample to blackstone after every change would tell a story about abnormal engine wear before problems begin... Correct?
How many samples until you get a number that tells you how the engine is actually wearing? If buying a car would one sample be a good diagnostic practice?
This is the first time I have heard about oil samples being sent out. IF you can get that much information out of these tests why aren't more people doing this? We should try for a club discount...
Was the filter ever opened to see if that chunk is trapped in the filter? IF the chunk made it to the bottom of the pan wouldn't it have been stuck to the plug like the smaller pieces rather than flowing out with the old oil?
What is a dog bone in an engine?
Last one...
What is that rusty looking goo and what is it doing in J's engine?
I thought the same, but, Tatar has a very different view. He sure scared me into always using the stops.
Russ M
Enthusiast
Is it possible that his pistons are a seperate incident? Im thinking it expanded to much in the cylinder (too tight tolerances) could be wrong though.
I've been reading this thread since it started... Thanks for all the photos, sorry this happened to your car J. So nice of everyone to jump into help.
If one of you guys get a chance could you answer a couple of questions? I really want to understand what went wrong as this thread evolves.
If I understand Dave correctly, sending out a dirty oil sample to blackstone after every change would tell a story about abnormal engine wear before problems begin... Correct?
How many samples until you get a number that tells you how the engine is actually wearing? If buying a car would one sample be a good diagnostic practice?
This is the first time I have heard about oil samples being sent out. IF you can get that much information out of these tests why aren't more people doing this? We should try for a club discount... the analysis can tell you what type of material is being worn in the engine. tells if its could be bearing material etc.. a sample analysis is here: Gas Engine Sample Report 1
Was the filter ever opened to see if that chunk is trapped in the filter? IF the chunk made it to the bottom of the pan wouldn't it have been stuck to the plug like the smaller pieces rather than flowing out with the old oil? if it was small enough it might get stuck to the bolt but could easily pass it and float thru the engine
What is a dog bone in an engine? rod
Last one...
What is that rusty looking goo and what is it doing in J's engine? GUNK, its in a lot of engines.
see above in red unless someone smarter corrects me..lol
jmillsUT28
Enthusiast
Top of Pistons:
jmillsUT28
Enthusiast
Ok this is the best picture I could get from the crank. I can not feel any scratches at all in it.
I wouldn't normally disagree with Chuck on much of anything, but he may be mistaken here, or was thinking Gen-1. Gen-2 and newer are thermally interference fit liners. They will not EVER move unless they are defective. Flat out- if they move- your engine needs to be re-sleeved and there is no way around it. I have rebuilt many of these engines and re-sleeved dozens of these cylinders- they don't even come apart when you want them to, lol.
EDIT: The good news is that the journals look fine!
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dave6666
Enthusiast
When I bought my '01 in '06 I shortly thereafter put in a new water pump to avoid spinning impeller syndrome. Bought a NIB Mopar unit. Found one of these turnings in the box floating around. The other inside the pump after deciding I should look.
Yup, machining needs an anal post machining cleanup.
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Dave......... those shavings are fuzzy. Did you get the rag out of the engine they left in there too?
Or do you keep them in your pocket for good luck or something?
dave6666
Enthusiast
Dave......... those shavings are fuzzy. Did you get the rag out of the engine they left in there too?
Or do you keep them in your pocket for good luck or something?
Dust Dan. Good ol' Texas dust. Been setting on the desk for about 4 years at the office. I told the cleaning staff not to mess with them and they fear me now. Plus, the 70 year old fat one that mops wants a ride in the car nooooOOOOOOOooooooooooo...
I told him Gen2 and he siad it was still an issue, He convinced me enough that I bought the dog bones from him. For those that don't know what dog bones are, they are a set of ten plates that bolt on top of the block so that when you turn the crank you do not lift the cylinder sleeves.
Dan:
where do you think the culprit went to? There has to be something fairly large hidden somewhere, plus, the piston skirt has not been found?
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1TONY1
Enthusiast
I believe they are talking about a piece that you would bolt under a head bolt to keep the sleeve down in the cylinder. I've never used them on a gen2.What is a dog bone in an engine?
Greg Good Cylinder Heads
Enthusiast
I'll tell you what, far be it from me to dispute something Tator says. He's a sharp guy. If he says he's seen Gen 2 liners move, then he has. I personally haven't seen Gen 2 or 3 liners move, but I haven't seen the number of engines he has. It's something I will keep an eye out for it in the future.
Jack-
Trust me, you don't need "dogbones" on G2/G3/G4 unless they are wetsleeved in the aftermarket. Hell, I think that dogbones even on Gen-1's are overrated I have yet to see one that actually lifted its sleeves by turning them over- the older engines end up with the sleeves pretty much cemented in place by the coolant silicates anyway by now. On the Gen-1 engines that I have had to pull sleeves on, they DO NOT want to come out. Gen-2 engines require that the sleeves be CUT out. as you can guess, if you can lift a sleeve that should normally have to be cut out- something is severely wrong. You have no solid contact between the liner and the block, no cooling jacket that is working correctly, and impending cylinder damage and detonation for starters.
So far as where the pieces went, the most likely explanation is that they made it out during an oil change. This would be easy considering the pickup where they would likely end up is right next to the oil drain plug.
And I am telling you that in a properly built thermally interference fit/press fit sleeved engine, they CANT move. If they move- they need to be replaced anyway. Simply bolting them back down isn't going to solve the problem of lack of adequate press between the block and sleeve- which will lead to sleeve shift, hot spotting, and reduced engine life/leakage/damage overall.
I have no doubt that Tator has seen Gen-2 sleeves move. I know for a fact that there were some engines with defective sleeves from the factory- and no, NOT the PM 2000 Sleeve issue that everyone knows about- they had incorrect counterbores or sleeve lips or weren't pressed in correctly, and the sleeves would "drop" into the block over time, and would wiggle loose from stress and head gasket forces. However, that doesn't change the fact that an affected engine MUST be resleeved. A proper sleeve fit it pressed TIGHT, with the lip pressed down against the counterbore so that it cannot drop. Then the deck/sleeves are decked to the same height.
Hence, holding them down is pointless at best. If they do actually move- the block is defective and needs to be yanked and sleeved anyway.
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It is still strange that there wasn't more debris found. In addition, you would not think the skirt debris could have made it through the drain hole. If all the particle matter is gone, what luck. You sort of wonder if the motor was put back together with the broken skirt.
Jack-
I don't know enough about what was found to even suggest that possiblity. That would imply negligence at best and fraud at worst. I have seen it before from another tuner, but NEVER from UGR. I have never heard of anything in the past about UGR that would cause me to imply that against them.
Personally, I doubt that is the case. If there was a damaged skirt with NO other damage, it would be a little more likely. However, the fact that the counterweight and both pistons in the same group have damage, and there were some shavings found, indicates that something DID actually happen there, in that engine. If the engine was assembled with damages parts or cleaned out, there would be nothing left, and/or no damage on the counterweight.
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jmillsUT28
Enthusiast
Was going to work on the car last night but got in to late. Going to check the other bearings tonight and see what condition they are in.
Dan, what could have been the problem that caused all of this? Could I miss shift cause this? About a month ago I was on the highway and opened her up. Was in 3rd and went to 4th but I went into 2nd. I had a fast reaction and popped it out of 2nd quickly but maybe it causes this damage then. Could that be possible?
Dan, what could have been the problem that caused all of this? Could I miss shift cause this? About a month ago I was on the highway and opened her up. Was in 3rd and went to 4th but I went into 2nd. I had a fast reaction and popped it out of 2nd quickly but maybe it causes this damage then. Could that be possible?
dave6666
Enthusiast
I think you may have figured it out
Russ M
Enthusiast
Very possible, what RPM did the motor spike to?
dave6666
Enthusiast
Let's say you went to 7000 rpm instantaneously. Guessing your reaction is if world class, 1/2 of a second, during that 1/2 second the pistons went up and down about 50 times.
You are not fast enough. None of us are.
You are not fast enough. None of us are.
Martin
Enthusiast
Not to hijack the thread, but I could never figure out why automakers don't implement 'mis shift disable' solenoids... They love to give us skip-shift solenoids to drive us crazy when we want to shift into second gear at low RPMs, so it shouldn't be that hard to add the logic to lock out second gear at certain engine and vehicle speeds... Just sayin...
dave6666
Enthusiast
^^^ Nanny crap
Martin
Enthusiast
vancouver-gts
Viper Owner
Where's the missing skirt,that's what I'd worry about.I'd tear down that engine completely. Something is amiss
Not only the skirt, but, whatever caused the interference. Then, only two small shavings?Where's the missing skirt,that's what I'd worry about.I'd tear down that engine completely. Something is amiss
Where's the missing skirt,that's what I'd worry about.I'd tear down that engine completely. Something is amiss
I think this is where some of the confusion is coming from- where is this missing skirt you guys are seeing? I am looking at the pictures, and the skirts are in tact as they should be, just worn. There is a chunk missing from the pin boss, and dimples in the piston bottom... but thats all?
I stand corrected. I thought Page 3 showed part of the skirt missing, a closer look does not support that. Page 3 also makes the damage look far less severe than the pics of the pin boss on Page 1.
Do you know what the normal clearance between the boss and the counterweight is?
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