Gen 1 VEC 2/3 question...

Donuts4me9

Enthusiast
Joined
May 31, 2005
Posts
449
Reaction score
0
Location
Chicago, IL
I was reading up on a posibably getting a Vec 2/3 and I read this:

"Viper Gen 1 and 2 customers have experienced gains in excess of 60 HP and 115 FT/LBS torque!"

Has anyone actually gotten this out of a stock 94' gen 1 viper? If so, how long does it take to istall and tune the Vec? For bang for the buck, this seams to good to be true. If anyone can shead some light on this, it would be great.

thanks for the help

Scott :usa:
 
D

DAMN YANKEE

Guest
I own a 2000 GTS, Roe blown (5 lbs) with rollers, smooth tubes and exhaust work. I am not going to be able to tell you what you can get with a stock 1994 Gen1, but I can answer some of your questions.

I have watched with some degree of curiosity as this Viper community has seemed to seperate itself into four distinctly different pieces. All of it goodness.

Those that keep their cars purposefully stock, as in no mods.

Those that do the light mods, smooth tubes, filters, maybe an airbox, cat-back, wheels, etc. Pretty much folks that want to do small mods themselves for the fun of it, or they don't trust anybody else to work on their car. Some have their shop do these mods.

Those that do the heavy mods, blowers, NOS, turbos, heads, full exhaust, rear-ends, VECS, etc. Whether or not they did the work themselves, they will not tune their own Vipers.

Those that do the heavy mods AND master their VECS, EASE, etc., etc. The last group appears to be the guys/gals turning in the lowest numbers and answering the majority of the tech threads.

I was in the third group having done everything but the rockers myself and looking now to master the VEC and the art of the super tune. So with that in mind.

1. Your last question first. If one is really anal about their work, the VEC3 unit goes on in about two hours. The operations required are simply and straight forward. The directions are good. Your conversations with Roe when you order the unit provides you with the right card to "set it up" from the get go. The assembly and installation is clean, logical and easily accomplished by a reasonably hands-on person. You will crimp, and potentially add and remove pins from connectors, you might solder. All work is in the engine bay. The end result looks clean.

2. How much horsepower increase? Well, now it gets more intersting. Simply put (very simply put so people in group 4 please don't get **********)one can see the VEC as allowing for complete control over how much each individual injector injects into the cylinder and how the engine will go about firing that cylinder off. Now there is something else you need to know about the VEC, when you know it,you'll know more than most and be well on your way to mastering your own Viper. With all the control that the VEC can provide, one of the most important things it can do is to take a heavily moded engine and workin with the stock PCM "cut-back" on those mods so that for 99.5% of the time those mods are running at near stock values. In other words, up to WOT your car idles, drives and performs as if it was stock. When the stock PCM (being manipulated by the VEC) manages the car for everything up to WOT, this is called Closed-Loop. When you enter into Open-Loop the VEC takes more control and manages most effectively all the mods to their max potential while looking after the integrity of your motor. That is the simplest explanation. You know your tune, your car runs "normally" in Closed-Loop, and in Open-Loop you get safe maximazation.

So why use a VEC on a stock motor? If you master the VEC you can absolutely maximize your engines performance. You can (with WB) get absolute readings. The best tune that can be had. For a mostly stock car, get the best out of your mods. And then....well then you can get your car in Open-Loop to run as hot as is safely recommended. Maximazation of WOT for the stocker.

Hope this helps. Let the flaming begin!
 

Joseph Dell

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 2, 2000
Posts
3,463
Reaction score
0
Location
Atlanta, GA 30338
On a bone-stock 97 GTS, I tuned a car to add 50hp and 75tq from baseline that morning on a dyno. this stock GTS was making ~480 tq and ~450 (just under) hp on the dyno when i was done with it.

To Damn Yankee's comment: The VEC2/3 is a piggy-back computer. It does NOT give you absolute control. it gives you modified control. If you want absolute control, you need an AEM or MOTEC.

good luck!

JD
 
OP
OP
D

Donuts4me9

Enthusiast
Joined
May 31, 2005
Posts
449
Reaction score
0
Location
Chicago, IL
damn yankee, thanks so much for all that info.

Does anyone have any solid numbers on what it can do ? even with light mods? the discription reads "in excess" so how good can the numbers get with the right tune?
 

dansauto

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 30, 2001
Posts
939
Reaction score
0
Location
gillett, pa, usa
I own a 2000 GTS, Roe blown (5 lbs) with rollers, smooth tubes and exhaust work. I am not going to be able to tell you what you can get with a stock 1994 Gen1, but I can answer some of your questions.

I have watched with some degree of curiosity as this Viper community has seemed to seperate itself into four distinctly different pieces. All of it goodness.

Those that keep their cars purposefully stock, as in no mods.

Those that do the light mods, smooth tubes, filters, maybe an airbox, cat-back, wheels, etc. Pretty much folks that want to do small mods themselves for the fun of it, or they don't trust anybody else to work on their car. Some have their shop do these mods.

Those that do the heavy mods, blowers, NOS, turbos, heads, full exhaust, rear-ends, VECS, etc. Whether or not they did the work themselves, they will not tune their own Vipers.

Those that do the heavy mods AND master their VECS, EASE, etc., etc. The last group appears to be the guys/gals turning in the lowest numbers and answering the majority of the tech threads.

I was in the third group having done everything but the rockers myself and looking now to master the VEC and the art of the super tune. So with that in mind.

1. Your last question first. If one is really anal about their work, the VEC3 unit goes on in about two hours. The operations required are simply and straight forward. The directions are good. Your conversations with Roe when you order the unit provides you with the right card to "set it up" from the get go. The assembly and installation is clean, logical and easily accomplished by a reasonably hands-on person. You will crimp, and potentially add and remove pins from connectors, you might solder. All work is in the engine bay. The end result looks clean.

2. How much horsepower increase? Well, now it gets more intersting. Simply put (very simply put so people in group 4 please don't get **********)one can see the VEC as allowing for complete control over how much each individual injector injects into the cylinder and how the engine will go about firing that cylinder off. Now there is something else you need to know about the VEC, when you know it,you'll know more than most and be well on your way to mastering your own Viper. With all the control that the VEC can provide, one of the most important things it can do is to take a heavily moded engine and workin with the stock PCM "cut-back" on those mods so that for 99.5% of the time those mods are running at near stock values. In other words, up to WOT your car idles, drives and performs as if it was stock. When the stock PCM (being manipulated by the VEC) manages the car for everything up to WOT, this is called Closed-Loop. When you enter into Open-Loop the VEC takes more control and manages most effectively all the mods to their max potential while looking after the integrity of your motor. That is the simplest explanation. You know your tune, your car runs "normally" in Closed-Loop, and in Open-Loop you get safe maximazation.

So why use a VEC on a stock motor? If you master the VEC you can absolutely maximize your engines performance. You can (with WB) get absolute readings. The best tune that can be had. For a mostly stock car, get the best out of your mods. And then....well then you can get your car in Open-Loop to run as hot as is safely recommended. Maximazation of WOT for the stocker.

Hope this helps. Let the flaming begin!

ok, I'll start...

This is not true. The VEC 2-3 will work under closed or open loop. How do you think you trim the injectors at idle? Whn you are running injectors 2x the oem size how can you say the car is running under factory parameters? :rolleyes:
 
D

DAMN YANKEE

Guest
Joseph, that would be a negatory red rider.

Was concerned that we would end up there, the VEC is not a piggyback computer. That is a common misunderstanding and holds back alot of folks from grasping the actual the power of the VEC system and why one can use it so effectively. Without trying to get into a food fight.

As a better person than me put it...

In typical piggback system control over the engine is accomplished by manipulating inputs into stock PCM to make the PCM change its load calibration. Reducing MAP sensor voltage has the effect of reducing injector pulse width to make the PCM think it is under greater vacuum than actual. At the same time ignition timing is advanced due to the PCM believing the engine is under a lower load. Conversly increasing voltage has the opposite effect of increasing fuel and reducing timing advance. When tuning with "piggy-back" systems of this type you can find yourself in a situation where you can have proper PARTIAL throttle tuning, or proper FULL throttle tuning, but rarely both if the engine heavily modified or has forced induction. The VEC is an "in line" process, it is a very different and very effective approach allowing for the simplicity of a piggy-back system with the control of a stand-alone system as mentioned by you.

For more reasons than we need to go into now, the VEC does not require one to reprogram every element of driving conditions like say a stand alone system. In a true stand alone system you must program for every operation condition will experience such as load, throttle position, rpm, engine temp, air temp, etc. They are complex to tune and why do it as the Viper's stock PCM is well done for Closed-Loop and more importantly your STOCK PCM also controls radiator fan function, ac operation , ignition operation and diagnostic functions. Stand alone are generally not compatible with OBD that they replace the factory PCM and will not link with state run emmisions equipment. These stand alone systems are best suited for race track use where engine can fine tune the program to the environment of of race track optimum performance.

Vec is the best of both worlds, allowing the stock PCM to do its job in the real world of driving in closed loop. You can use an AEM or MOTEC effectively as well. But the VEC is not a piggy-back system and unless one can find a really excellent reason to reprogram ones engine temp and air temp curves, etc., etc....why bother?

So, as Joseph has stated, 50hp with a great tune, on a stocker is possible.
And you get to do real world pulls on asphalt, real world mapping where-ever you drive and you get to know WHY and HOW to do this whenever you want. Having said that, if you do live next to a dyno shop and want somebody else to do your tuning, that is definately the right way to go.
 
D

DAMN YANKEE

Guest
Dan,

I tried to make the explanation as simple as possible.

You are of course correct, the VEC is ALWAYS working. I just didn't want to get into Long Term Fuel Trim Adaptives, etc. etc. here. I hinted at it by mentioning the rquirement to display the OBD through a secondary product (example given was EASE).

It would be obvious that, as I said, to get say...larger injectors to provide essentially stock delivery within closed loop the VEC system WOULD HAVE to be constantly at work. But, having said that Dan, I hope that you too grasp that the VEC is effectively reducing injector modulation in CLOSED LOOP so that ones car is running much closer to factory parameters. I see you are twin turbo, do you use a VEC?

Dan, is correct, Folks, just trying to bring a few more people out of darkness.
 

Joseph Dell

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 2, 2000
Posts
3,463
Reaction score
0
Location
Atlanta, GA 30338
There is a reason we call them Damn Yankees down here (in GA). :)

We can agree to disagree. The VEC2 acts MORE LIKE a piggyback than it does a replacement computer. Like the split second, it manipulated the STOCK computer program by changing/augmenting its signals. It tricks the stock computer into thinking that everything is fine and then it modifies the parameters on the out-bound.

that's a piggy-back to me.

but it might just be semantics.

there isn't that much magic behind it... it sits in-line with the fuel injectors AND it listens to crank position. it retards timing via the CPS and modifies the fuel parameters via the injectors that are in-line.

let's make up a new name for it. Let's call it an in-line-signal-modifier?

:)

JD
 
D

DAMN YANKEE

Guest
Glad to hear it, the VECs, especially the new VEC3 is no Split Second unit, not at all.

In fact, the new VEC3 has some serious enhanced parameters now. The unit now provides a sensor internal to the VEC that is not part of the stock PCM's bag of tricks. This goes beyond being able to add 3rd party sensors (Wideband for instance), the VEC3 has an internal Bar Pressure Sensor that can read 30” Hg vacuum to 22 PSI boost pressure within the manifold. That is big news for induction engines. Viper's stock PCM has no such sensor. Very cool.

Dan, what did you use to read the OBD info? When you finished your LTFTAs, do you remember approx what % your injectors were executing in Closed-Loop?
 
G

grcforce327

Guest
Finally got a nice day to start doing some 3rd gear pulls.Interesting making incremental changes and feeling the car respond :D !The logging software with the LC-1's on both banks is working great :D !!Rain tommorrow :mad: ....That ***** :mad: !!!
 

dansauto

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 30, 2001
Posts
939
Reaction score
0
Location
gillett, pa, usa
I have a MT2500 Snap on scan tool. I used it to to trim Long term and double checked on a wide band with duel widebands on eachbank. I am running 55 lb injectors and have them trimmed at 52% left bank and 51% right bank. I also use the vec2 to activate a **** injection pump at 10# of boost. What is the differance between Vec2 and 3? Is it just the logging? The split second would be fine if you did the Dug Leven way and added an extra injector. That way you keep the orginal parameters and only initate the extra injector under boost. Much easier to tune, but I was never sure the fuel would travel evenly in the manifold, so I opted for larger injectors.
 
G

grcforce327

Guest
I have a MT2500 Snap on scan tool. I used it to to trim Long term and double checked on a wide band with duel widebands on eachbank. I am running 55 lb injectors and have them trimmed at 52% left bank and 51% right bank. I also use the vec2 to activate a **** injection pump at 10# of boost. What is the differance between Vec2 and 3? Is it just the logging? Much easier to tune, but I was never sure the fuel would travel evenly in the manifold, so I opted for larger injectors.

I haven't used the Vec2 so I'm not sure.Like you ,I did have to trim alittle more fuel from the right bank, though not a full percent.Wonder if this is common to the viper?
 

Joseph Dell

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 2, 2000
Posts
3,463
Reaction score
0
Location
Atlanta, GA 30338
I used the DLM method for years... Over 1000hp with no issues at all. Much easier to tune as well.

As for the heavy promotion of the 'new VEC3', the old vec2 had an internal map sensor. The only real differences between the 2 and the 3 are : ability to modify IAT signal (required due to a bug in the vec2) and usb supprt (connect via usb to built-in serial converter). Aint much else!

JD
 

Steve 00RT/10

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 18, 2000
Posts
1,751
Reaction score
0
Location
Michigan
As for the heavy promotion of the 'new VEC3', the old vec2 had an internal map sensor. The only real differences between the 2 and the 3 are : ability to modify IAT signal (required due to a bug in the vec2) and usb supprt (connect via usb to built-in serial converter). Aint much else!

Joe,

I don't have the upgrade yet, but I believe the HP/TQ features are now enabled as well. As everything is relative based on the starting point, why would one ever need a dyno if these features now work?

As for our car, the Roe base set on the injectors was 65%. to adjust the LTFT to zero (or close to it), the modified base set is now 70% with a little individual cylinder trim as well. I did not change the relative cylinder trim from the factory. You can further tune the individual cylinders by pulling the plugs every now and again and having a look.

I likely would not have monkeyed with the FT if I hadn't set a lean code a few hundred miles in. A scan tool showed +28-32% on LTFT with the 96 PCM I bought along with the SC kit.

Steve
 
D

DAMN YANKEE

Guest
If by "heavy promotion" you mean my comment, I'm attempting to answer the man's question. I'm not promoting VEC, I am promoting the idea that one can learn to tune well using ANY of the tools described above. Not everybody lives next to a Dyno Shop, or wants to use one if they did, and those same people might like to tune their own Vipers well. I am just a guy, who having bought and installed a Supercharger got a VEC3. As I said WAY up top here, having gotten the VEC3 I was taken by how powerful it is. Its been a pleasure finally squaring away alot of the mystery of my Viper, and its been a blast to be able to tune it myself. It was powerful in VEC2 configuration, it is more so in VEC3.

Now on to the IAT issue. IAT = Intake Air Temperature, one of the many parameters required to properly derive the correct air to fuel ratio. I actually sat here and wrote out another long one on the difference between either the VEC2 or VEC3's IAT and the later Vipers stock PCM IAT why the VEC actually has a secondary IAT, why most use the stock PCM's curves. And then went on to explain Bar Pressure, the updated version software, the correction to the "bug" (software related ICFT for #10 , not IAT), the importance in a forced induction engine, Lamda, duty cycle, adaptives, etc. etc. and then....all of the sudden, I realized. Hey, that isn't going to answer this guy's original question.

You bet, Donuts, you can tune your car and get those extra horses. Either take it a dynoshop and give the man your keys or learn to do it yourself with ANY of the fine products listed above.

Oh yea, I did want to be sure and mention, being able to change it all with a credit card on my way to the Emissions Station is pretty cool too, try that with the old DLM method.
 
G

grcforce327

Guest
I did experience a glitch this morning when making changes to the ignition rpm table.When I wrote the changes to the card,I programmed 36@3500rpm, and when I wrote to the card,all the changes were correct except it read 96@3500rpm(went back and corrected it to 36).May want to pay attention to the #'s you program after the write!
 
G

grcforce327

Guest
GRC, Was the data correct and the card title wrong?

I plugged in the figures and clicked write to card,then I clicked read card and all the changes were correct except I watch 36 change to 96 @3500!Went back and changed it again to 36!
 
D

DAMN YANKEE

Guest
I take it it took the second time? If you call it in, would you please post here what the upshot was? Thanks.
 
G

grcforce327

Guest
Vec2/3 does that sometimes. Slight parameter changed aren't always recognized. Always good to double-check...

I don't think this was the case.It was 42 and I changed it to 36.I wrote to card,then click read card,and actually saw it change from 36 to 96.
 
D

DAMN YANKEE

Guest
GRC, I would think you would want to call Sean about that. Something just doesn't sound right. Would you please consider posting in this thread if you do make that call. Thanks.
 

Joseph Dell

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 2, 2000
Posts
3,463
Reaction score
0
Location
Atlanta, GA 30338
I'm tellin' y'all... i've tuned dozens of cars w/ the VEC2 and sometimes, i'll set a parameter and then hit WRITE and then i'll hit READ and the parameter won't be what i'd set it for.
 
D

DAMN YANKEE

Guest
Sean "I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever had this happen in all the programs I've worked on in VEC2 and VEC3. Anybody that has a problem like this should call me as I would want to see what and how they are working with the VEC."
 

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
153,215
Posts
1,682,041
Members
17,708
Latest member
xeng yang
Top