Help!!!! Emissions Issue?

[Coloviper]

Okay guys;

Got up this morning and felt the snow and ice had subsided enough to drive my 06' Viper Coupe the four miles to the Emissions Testing Station here in Colorado as my plates are due here in January. Never had a care in the world as the last time I tested the car in January of 2010, it passed with flying colors. As you are aware, the only different in drivetrain on my car is Full Bellanger exhaust (Headers, Hi-Flo Cats and Cat-back, Fidanza Lightweight Flywheel and 3.55 rear gears), all of which were present on my 2010 Emissions test. I have done absolutely nothing with the car since then. It is exactly the same. Anyway in January 2010 here is what I had:

HC Tested: 0.4506, Limit is 1.2000 (Pass)
CO Tested: 4.5271, Limit is 15.0000 (Pass)
CO2 Tested: 479.6283, No State Limit (Pass)
NOx Tested: 0.4057, Limit is 1.5000 (Pass)
Evap Test: Pass as Satte is just Pass of Fail (Pass)

Today, January 2012 I get the car warmed up real good then fill up the rest of thegas tank, which now all of a sudden my gas guage seems to just show 1/2 tank when full. NEVER noticed this before today. The results come back as:

HC Tested: 2.5819, Limit is 1.2000 (Fail)
CO Tested: 12.5480, Limit is 15.0000 (Pass but number is 3 times what it was 2 years ago)
CO2 Tested: 743.5807, No State Limit (Pass but number is over 70% higher than 2 years ago)
NOx Tested: 2.1485, Limit is 1.5000 (Fail)
Evap Test: Pass as Satte is just Pass of Fail (Pass)

I have no clue what is going on. Bad gas could contribute, but something else is going on. Check Engine light has never come on. It has always had the stock tune as nothing has ever been dumped into the computer. It had sat for almost 2 months up to today. Tank was only at 1/2 tank before I filled it up according to gauge.

I am baffled and not sure where to even begin. The higher readings would dictate:

High HC means I have too much unburned or partially burned fuel coming out. (I have noticed the mileage on my Viper was getting worse, but still getting around 14 mpg average.)
High NOx means high Combustion temperatures and or high Combustion pressures.
If I had high CO that means it is running too rich. But it is definitely running much richer than two years ago according to today's readings.

Anyone have an idea where to start or what to do? I mean the CO Viper Tech Glenn is no longer at Brandon Dodge on Broadway which means there is not a seriously good and trustworthy Viper tech at a Dodge dealership in the Colorado Front Range. I am somewhat very discouraged by this. I just am not sure where to start on this and my job and travel schedule is not leaving me with much if any time to deal with it at the moment.


Is it a problem with Cats, is it a problem with O2, is there some other problem there? I mean I have noticed that it seems almost like it has slight hesitation and some roughness when you first step on the gas after taking your foot off of it. It seems to run a little rougher between 1000 rpm up to about 3,000 rpm, then it smooths out. Then again I am anal on how it feels to me.

I don't want to seem like I am freaking out but I had never expected this type of a result to the test based upon the fact I have done nothing to the car since the last one and and only put 4,200 miles on the car between tests.

Help! Help! Help!

Thanks
Rick

 

[bluesrt]

old gas will give you a fit on high emmisions, additives will also do this if not the correct ones- fill it up with fresh gas and put 2 bottles of heat in it- drive the car around and get the engine really heat soaked, then go try again.

 

[Coloviper]

Thanks BlueSRT;

Here is some more detailed information on the situation. BTW the State of Colorado upgraded all their software, etc. as of 01/01/2012. Looks like this is going to be a problem for all.

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

Anyone else have an idea what is going on looking at this?

Looks like I have to spend an afternoon sucking everything out of my friggin' Gas tank, then waiting for the next break in Snowstorms to try again. I will have to try this Heat or whatever that is. Get the car real good and hot with a heated drive instead of just getting it hot and then going the 4 miles straight to the testing station. Come to think of it, I can't even remember the last time I filled it up with gas, hell it could be 4 or longer months ago before I topped it of today. If the Dodge dealership here had decent and trustworthy techs and I didn't have the Bellanger exhaust set up in, I would just take it there, no questions asked as I still have 2 years on the 7 yr Maxcare warranty. Maybe they would help me with getting it right with the Bellanger set-up anyway as it was the same Viper tech they had who installed it prior but he is now no longer there and when he did it was at the dealership Dodge shut down, that saint of a dealership.

Snow storm is blowing over the mountains right now as we speak so it is going to have to wait for the next break. Plates are due January but get one month grace period so I have some time in the calendar. Time with work is not so forgiving. Started a new job in April last year, brought on to start a new division of engineering, have added 19 technical people thus far to my group and with back log of current work I have brought in, we are still 23 people short as of right now and expect to have close to 60 people in my division by the end of 2012. The reward from our lovely government for my contribution to our economy is this BS EPA crap. Where is Ron Paul when you need him.

There my rant is done, now I will fix the damn thing somehow, sometime in my spare time?????? Starting to side with Chuck on all this stuff and that is scary!

Rick

 

[Camfab]

It's not the government BS that's causing your problem, it's the BS aftermarket Hi-flow cats you put on your car. I did a thread on this exact subject and showed test results. Hi flow cats don't work very good to begin with, and secondly have a very short lifespan. I'll look the thread up for you. In the mean time, put the factory cats back on it and go get re-tested.

 

[Coloviper]

Thanks Camfab;

I know the govenment is not causing the problems with my car, it is just causing the hassle to do everything else. If the Bellanger high flow cats have a short lifespan, then I guess that is one thing and I need to be aware of that. I ran this Bellanger set-up for four years already and emissions tested it two years ago, that test was extremely clean with a two year high flow cat set-up on, hence if it is a short span, then it is short.

One question, if I have to change out the cats, can the stock cats just bolt on directly to the Bellanger headers and Bellanger cat back with no other modificaitons. Are those two sections just interchangeable? I would like to keep the Bellanger Headers and Bellanger Cat-Back system on. I did not install it myself, which is why I am asking?

Right now, I am not convinced in any one direction, so I am going to look for real easy stuff first before I move to bigger stuff. What a PITA though! Like my 7,800 miles in 5+ years is affecting anything!

Thanks
Rick

 

[swexlin]

I was going to guess the cats as well. Here in PA, you would have passed, as they only do an OBD test now - they did away with tailpipe dyno tests a few years back. As long as you have no codes - you pass! Of course, if you're under 5000 miles per year, you're expempt anyway...lucky for me...as I only put about 3000 anually on the Viper.

 

[Camfab]

Ok here we go.....................

As far as your exhaust situation, I have no idea what someone else has done. I have a Gen II so I can't make any comments anyway. I believe your just the tip of the iceberg as standards from CA trickle across the nation many more guys are going to find themselves in your situation. It's an easy yet costly fix.

This is the car 100% stock, notice the measured HC


Here is the car 100% stock with the exception of high flow cats. Notice what happened to HC @ 25mph. Look at the NO as well as the CO


Here is the same car with Stiker heads and a very large cam and STOCK cats.....

 

[Coloviper]

Oh Swelin;

Your killing me.

Anyway, we are going to do the following at my friend's shop to pin point the issue:

1. Drain all the gas out of the tank.
2. Refuel with the the highest octane we can get, 91 Octane here in Colorado which this time of year is Winterized fuel (all our fuel is oxygenated here in the winter as it is suppose to help with emissions)
3. Throw in some good fuel system cleaner.
4. Change the Oil while we are at it as even though I have only put on 1,100 miles since VOI11, I changed the oil the Winter of 2010 when we got back from VOI11, just before storage. That could also be contributing in a small way. I had planned on a full service in the Spring 2012 anyway.
5. Pull a few spark plugs to see how they look. Check the spark plug wires and coils visually to see if there is an issue.

Run the car around for a few hours, to put maybe a 1/4 to 1/3 tank through.

6. Fill it back up to full.
7. Add some good HEAT or other Fuel Additive to treat the gas.
8. Then get it good and hot on the road for a bit, run it back to the emissions testing station to see how it does.

If there are still issues in test results, then I will look deeper into the actual cats and other areas. I will let you know how it goes. Anyone else with ideas, let me know as I greatly appreciate it.

Again PITA.

 

[Coloviper]

Thanks Camfab;

From the looks of it and those charts, this rolling dyno emissions test here in Colorado where they run the road course fully is quite a bit more complicated, tough and thorough than what you showed there from California, no? Looks like the cats do have an effect. The problem here is I have the emissions test from new with stock system and the test of the full Bellanger set-up with high flow cats on right after it was installed. It ran cleaner than stock with the Bellanger set up when new as opposed to 2 year old stock. Again, if the hi flows wear out quicker than I guess they do.

I will try the easy way first and do the above. If that doesn't work, than the stock cats go back on to see if that will help. If it does, I will just leave them on there.

No matter what, it is just a PITA do have to do this at this time of the year.

 

[Camfab]

If this is even possible, it seems CO uses a much more complex system of measurement than CA. I can't seem to figure out how they are measuring grams/mile from ppm. Good Luck

 

[Camfab]

Be careful what fuel system cleaner you use, as it may cause more emission issues................oxygenated fuel will help. If you have Chevron fuel, that's what you should use. Make sure your fueling up at a high volume station as well.

 

[bluegrassvet1]

I'm not familiar with emission testing. Do they check all registered vehicles, or just modified/high performance ones? Seems like a way to charge a $25 fee to me.

 

[swexlin]

Oh Swelin;

Your killing me.

1. Drain all the gas out of the tank.
2. Refuel with the the highest octane we can get, 91 Octane here in Colorado which this time of year is Winterized fuel (all our fuel is oxygenated here in the winter as it is suppose to help with emissions)
3. Throw in some good fuel system cleaner.
4. Change the Oil while we are at it as even though I have only put on 1,100 miles since VOI11, I changed the oil the Winter of 2010 when we got back from VOI11, just before storage. That could also be contributing in a small way. I had planned on a full service in the Spring 2012 anyway.
5. Pull a few spark plugs to see how they look. Check the spark plug wires and coils visually to see if there is an issue.

Run the car around for a few hours, to put maybe a 1/4 to 1/3 tank through.

6. Fill it back up to full.
7. Add some good HEAT or other Fuel Additive to treat the gas.
8. Then get it good and hot on the road for a bit, run it back to the emissions testing station to see how it does.

If there are still issues in test results, then I will look deeper into the actual cats and other areas. I will let you know how it goes. Anyone else with ideas, let me know as I greatly appreciate it.

Again PITA.

Sorry, didn't mean to. I feel your pain. My car is slightly modded, enough that if I were in CO, I might nervous! PA has the right idea with low mileage vehicles, I don't understand why other states don't follow suit. I hope you get it sorted, and keep us posted.

Scott

 

[Coloviper]

Colorado emissions testing is on all vehicles. We all share in this nonsense in certain areas of Colorado. The whole state is not ridiculous like this. The mountain counties don't bother with this crap. You will see on the test that they try to help out the hipo vehicles with an Enhanced category but it is still insane. I will make sure to find the right cleaner and additive. My friends speed shop helps deal with this issue from time to time, though they register all their vehicles up in the mountains to get around most of it. Who knows maybe I am moving in the end, on paper anyway.

The tester today said they have had a ton of issues since the state put this new software in a few days ago. In the end, maybe my numbers were worse than they should and maybe I would have just passed, but it is good to know if I am haveing an issue somewhere. Anyway, we will try to fix it up.

I am kind of over my initial frustration even though I don't have it solved, at least I have a plan of attack and the stress levels are down. After a stiff *** and coke late this afternoon at home, in the end it is like my old boss use to say, if you are going to be screwed anyway, sometimes it is better to just lay there and enjoy it.

I will let you guys know what I find out later this next week.

 

[Coloviper]

And to show you the frustrating factor of trying to deal with this, a picture from 3 hours after getting back from the testing station.

You must be registered for see images attach

Here we go again! Snow today and tomorrow. Colorado inches can change to feet in the same broadcast. Snow again on Wed and Thurs. Hopefully I get another chance to make a run out to deal with this in a week or so. Way too much snow here this winter. I know other places could really use it (like Alberta Canada) and well........ you can have it. Ah, maybe another *** and coke will make the outlook a little better.

 

[VYPR BYT 94]

No matter what, it is just a PITA do have to do this at this time of the year.

Hey Coloviper, I know this doesn't help right now but it will help next time...
I have a January b-day and live in Ohio so I had to figure something out.
I got my e-check done on the viper late summer/early fall. The guy at the e-check told me it's good for like 6-9 months before your b-day. Then I just go online a couple weeks before my b-day an renew the stickers. It works because your car is in the database as approved e-check. I kept the papers from the e-check but never used them. The stickers or plates, whichever you get, come in the mail 7-10 days later and no line to stand in. Very convenient.
As far as my other cars, I wait till the last minute to get e-checked.
The online renewal literally takes like 3-4 minutes.
Most importantly, you don't need to worry about watching the weather and being up against a deadline and stuff trying to get e-checked!
Here is what I used...
https://www.oplates.com/
I think this is what you'd use next time after you get the e-check done in nice weather;
https://www.colorado.gov/apps/dor/dmv/vehicle/registration/renewal/welcome.jsf
Sorry about your troubles.

 

[Garron]

I have one question! Did you use the cheap paper header gaskets that came with your Belanger headers?? Because if you did and they have cracked. When this happens you really don't hear a leak because the headers are so efficient they will **** oxygen in. This will screw up the oxygen sensor readings and the car will run rich.

If this has happened use the oem metal gaskets with your headers and you will never have a problem again.

Garrett

 

[LifeIsGood]

Rick...see this post I made earlier today...

Got A 2004 Viper and need help all ready - post#14

 

[johniew398]

And to show you the frustrating factor of trying to deal with this, a picture from 3 hours after getting back from the testing station.

You must be registered for see images attach

Here we go again! Snow today and tomorrow. Colorado inches can change to feet in the same broadcast. Snow again on Wed and Thurs. Hopefully I get another chance to make a run out to deal with this in a week or so. Way too much snow here this winter. I know other places could really use it (like Alberta Canada) and well........ you can have it. Ah, maybe another *** and coke will make the outlook a little better.

If I didn't know better the house across the street looks like my former neighbors house. We lived on Tabor.

 

[johniew398]

We miss Colorado; however, I sure don't miss the smog inspections.

I had a restored 1967 Vette Coupe that wouldn't pass in Denver and I called the state agency that runs the inspections. He asked me what kind of engine and I told him,
a 327 with 350 HP and only about 3k miles on it. He said that engine wouldn't pass brand new. I got an inspection sticker thanks to some guys who ran a Vette racing shop.

Again, in Denver, my wife had a 76 Monte Carlo that I had over time removed everything to do with smog (air pump, catalytic converter, etc). It always passed with no trouble; but, then Colorado said it had to have all the factory smog equipment on it (it was a California car) so I replaced everything and we tested it. It teted dirtier with all
the factory smog equipment than with nothing on it.

 

[Coloviper]

Thanks Garron, we had used the metal ones and they are on there pretty good. I am hoping it is just bad/old gas and an oil change. I will try it and see, if it ever stop frickin snowing. I have until the end of February so hopefully I have it figured out then. I see almost 4 inches on the driveway so I am off to shovel, yet again this winter. It was just two weeks ago that we got 28 inches dumped on us at the house.

 

[bluesrt]

fuel system cleaner will hurt the chances of it passing!!!!! use only heat in the tank!!!!

 

[cfiiman]

Run the car around for a few hours, to put maybe a 1/4 to 1/3 tank through.

Wow I wish I got that kind of mileage, I can do a 1/4 tank in a few minutes lol.

 

[Detlef]

I just did mine last month and barely passed. I too have the Belanger full setup on my 2001 GTS. I don't the NOx measurement on mine. Also, they could not put me on the rollers because the wheels are too wide.

Keep us updated on what you find.

 

[ViperGeorge]

I would vote for the hi flow cats or a sluggish O2 as the cause of the problem. If your friend has a real time data acquisition tool have him check the voltages on the O2s with the engine running to see if one is sluggish or not reading somewhat similar to the other. One other solution, set up an LLC in Montana and register the car through it as a "company car". No state inspections in Montana.

 

[Coloviper]

Thanks George;

After speaking with Glenn, our resident Viper Tech expert for Colorado (who is now doing it out of his own garage), he recommended that I drain the tank, fill it up 1/2 way with 91 premium, through in a bottle of HEET, drive it around to almost empty, then through in 3 gallons of E-85, another bottle of HEET and go test it. He did say there is some problems at times (ambient temp, gasoline delivered at certain times of year, etc.) with the hi-flo cats here at our altitude. Anyway, he did feel the car would pass as it did two yea ago before with the high flow cats with this set-up. He then cautioned me that I need to immediately fill it with 91 preminum and run it through if I am going to get spirited.

So we are going to check it out as that. He also advised not to put in any fuel system cleaner so I am bypassing that step. Eddie does have the ability to check out the codes and voltages so we will see if there is another issue there.

The big problem and I hope someone at Dodge is listening is that the State of Colorado does not have a trustworthy, factory train and certified Viper Tech at any of the Dodge dealerships here. Glenn was the last one and he is independant now. I can assure you that I am not buying a new Viper in the future with warranty, etc. if there are no qualified techs to implement it. Something to think about Dodge as we have been screaming this in Colorado for a few years now. I still have two years left on my Maxcare but no dealerships with qualified techs to implement it. Saleens, Viper, I seem to pick all the brands with the same issues on this area.

Thanks guys and I will let you know how it goes.

 

[ViperGeorge]

Jim Johnson told me that Brandon still has a Viper tech although not of the same quality as Glenn. Is that not true? I do have to get both my cars in for a warranty recharge of the A/C system. I suppose any tech could handle this but a good Viper tech also knows how to treat the car (with respect!!).

 

[Detlef]

Hhhmm, I always thought the Viper tech up here in Fort Collins was certified.
He's done all my work for years and is very meticulous.
How did you find out that info on no one being certified?

 

[bluesrt]

as long as he is good- toss out the certified,who cares, right?

 

[ViperGeorge]

According to the excellent Viper Tech I had in Massachusetts the real differences between a Viper Tech and regular Tech are:
1) Viper Techs tend to be the most experienced Techs. They went for Viper training only after they were already good mechanics.
2) The dealership had to buy Viper specific tools. Not sure what these are but I've heard they were as much as $30K. Viper techs had to know how to use them.
3) Vipers, being hand built, require more TLC when changing parts out. New parts don't always fit exactly and some tweaking is needed.
4) Suspension on the Viper requires extra work to set up. An alignment job is supposed to be done with the suspension both unloaded and loaded. After you align it, you must check it at all points in the travel of the suspension. My guy in Massachusetts took like 6+ hours to align my 06.
5) Vipers needed to be well cared for given how picky the owers are. I.e. keep Viper inside, don't let anyone else drive it, etc.

A good, non-Viper tech can certainly handle many items but not suspension and some part exchanges.