My Ultimate Kill Story

lleone

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For most of you out there who do not know me in person, I'm about as average "looks"-wise as they come. I have a short beard and long hair that is always pulled back which doesn't help get me the "GQ" look or anything. Besides, my idea of business formal is "no holes". Business casual is "yea, whatever". Needless to say, I am not a "snappy dapper dan" by any stretch of imagination, which makes the following story all the more funny.

Anyway, here's my "ulimate" kill story:

Last night I gave a friend a ride home after work. After leaving his house, I turn onto this 2 lane road. In front
of me is this car that has these 4 girls in it. They are all turning around and waving at me. I wave back and flash my lights. Life is good.

Anyway, up from behind comes this BMW M5 roaring along. He closes until he's about an angstrom off my rear. We come to an intersection, the girls turn right as do I and the M5. Shortly there is a stoplight which is red and the girls get in the left turn lane, I pull along side of them to go straight and they roll their windows down, lean out and start talking with me. They love the car - go figure. Anyway, I look in my mirror and the guy in the M5 is now parked less than an angstrom off my bumper and he is FUMING. The light turns green, the girls and I wave bye, they go left, I go straight. The road I'm on immediately becomes 4 lanes. The M5 pulls right and roars past me. No point in racing him as I've already won. Life IS good.

Viper: 4 -- M5: 0

And the moral: The 96-02 GTS body style is one of the sexiest design ever. It will be interesting to see the evolution of the Gen IIIs. Gen II is a hard act to follow.

(With sincere respect to BMWs everywhere. M5's are one of my favorite sedans.)



Viper: 4 -- M5: 0

Lou
 

Bwright

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Very nice!
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The Gen II is indeed a tough act to follow but I think the SRT/10 is a better looking vehicle than the RT/10 and will really look the part when it is seen with stripes. The GTS/R concept is so terrifying to behold that when I first saw it at the NY Auto Show I thought I would want someone to hold my hand just to go near it.

M5s are awesome sedans. They will have their hands full when the Audi RS6 (450hp + all-wheel drive!) arrives in a few months.

Nice kill!
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bwright:

I think the SRT/10 is a better looking vehicle than the RT/10 and will really look the part when it is seen with stripes.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bwright you Bwrong. You are hither for banned from posting in this section until further notice. Everyone be gentle, he knows not what he post.

smile.gif
 

Gerald

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bwright:
Very nice!
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The Gen II is indeed a tough act to follow but I think the SRT/10 is a better looking vehicle than the RT/10 and will really look the part when it is seen with stripes.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


bwhahahahah
 

Birvini

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This past weekend the SRT was at Chicagoland Speedway. My 94 RT/10 was parked behind it. It was funny because alot of people casually looked at the SRT. No one seemed to get really excited until they walked by my car. I heard alot of "DUDE,do you see THAT??" They were referring to my car and the Carroll Shelby autograph on my glove box. It was really funny.
 

Bwright

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Am I on crack? Cute, juvenile but cute.

Chuck, thanks for the kind words (nice site BTW). Actually, with 15 years of automotive industry experience I use to write automotive articles for The New York Times and Details magazine. I have had pieces published in Automobile Magazine and Car & Driver and personally know editors from other automotive magazines of note. In sum, when it comes to cars I always know what I am talking about.

Alex, let's see, where shall I start...The readers of Automobile magazine were asked to vote for best sports sedan over $40K. Guess who won and guess which one the editors, with all their experience, picked? Maybe they are all on crack. Take a look at the issue I believe it was a month or two ago. I wrote the commentary in the magazine. Other magazine editors with whom I am familiar found your opinion humorous, to put it politely. You are apparently aware of another 4-door sedan currently for sale in the US which is more capable than the M5. Please enlighten us all. I have never spoken to an M5 owner who was "truly upset" about the level of attention his/her car received. In fact, they delight in the fact that the clueless do not know what they have disturbed and the cognoscenti, those that count, are immediately aware. Weight? It's a 4-door sedan in full compliance with US crash laws. Precisely what were you expecting?

Your opinion, to which you are fully entitled, on the looks of the Gen III Viper are subjective. As an auto enthusiast and automotive writer I tend to see cars in two dimensions: what they look like and what they are about. When I look at the SRT/10 the first thing I think about is 500HP in bright flashing lights in my head. I note that your post makes approximately five references to looks/style but none directly about performance. I was under the impression that performance was what Vipers are about. The next thing that strikes me is that this is the nameplate that in its short history has already become a performance icon by making a significant worldwide name for itself in racing. This includes crushing class wins at LeMans, possibly the toughest automotive race there is. The tradition will doubtless continue.

Beyond that I see the host of technical improvements to the car. These includes higher Hz ratings for the structure (critical to performance) and lower Cd ratings for the body, also mission critical. I also note how the mission priorities logically influenced the design. Some examples: For better aerodynamics the car uses staggered tires which help put the nose closer to the ground. Also improves mileage. More power means larger tires to put same to the pavement. Once again Dodge leads all comers. That they are run flats means that a Viper driver will not be stranded by the side of the road with a can of fix-a-flat while his/her $80K car beckons all criminals. Larger brakes require more air to cool and ventilate hence the wheel spoke pass-through design and the larger side scoop. Increased horsepower and torque mandate larger air openings at the front hence the crosshair grill is wider and the small duct on the hood of the older cars becomes a larger hood length tunnel.

The clamshell hood was a large part of the following comment from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS), "the Dodge Viper, a small sports car, has the worst overall collision coverage loss experience among 1997-99 model passenger vehicles. The Viper's average loss payment per insured vehicle year, which reflects both the frequency and size of collision claims, is more than seven times the average for all cars. Average loss payments per claim exceed $26,000." It comes as no suprise to me therefore that the clamshell hood, a large part of the repair costs on the Viper, was eliminated on the SRT/10. It was only a matter of time before the insurance companies refused to insure the car, effectively ending its production. Interestingly, the Viper's designer used cutlines to make it seem as if the feature is still there.

The interior is a vast improvement over the older cars. The top mechanism on the older RT/10's was both an embarrasment on a car of any price and a leaky inconvenience at best. I understand why it had to go. I like the fact that the new top can be dropped from within the car. To accomodate the monstrous engine the sheer width of the SRT/10 is such that the crowds around the car at the NY Auto Show were shocked into silence. Only Lamborghini's Murcielago came close to the same lane-filling visual width impact. With quite possibly the most powerful HID lights ever fitted to a series production car I would hate to be the driver one of these things slithers up behind at night.

From a heritage standpoint the return to sidepipes is long overdue and Vipers without this feature are, in my opinion, less true to the original and the car that inspired it. Perhaps you will get this feature on your RT/10.

The new Viper "Looks Japanese"? Ah yes, another thinly veiled slight to the heritage of the vehicle's designer. Now that's disgusting. I can barely dignify that part of your post with a response but I do note that the SRT/10's designer was part of the team which designed the bestselling car in the land for the last few years running. Clearly he knows something.

"Everyone" loves the looks of the old Viper? Be careful. Tell me that you have never heard the expression "clown shoe" before. I personally disliked the RT/10 but loved the GTS. This is something I have heard noted by GTS owners on this board who say their preference stems from the fact that they dislike convertibles. I did not buy a GTS because other things about its construction bothered me. I will say that you are largely correct on the point of looks on the GTS' appearance. From a looks standpoint the GTS pegs the meter for MOST, myself included and is a very difficult act to follow. Time, however, marches on and so too must the GTS' design.

You are entitled to your subjective opinion of the SRT/10 but I note, factually, that the entire first year run has been sold out and the second year run is rapidly being spoken for. That sales are being made first to existing owners, of which there are thousands, while first time prospects (much like myself) are still anxiously waiting for their turn bodes well for the longevity of this limited production marque.

Sales of the older car, however, have apparently fallen off a cliff.
 
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lleone

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To Bwright: Nicely written.

To everyone else. I was just tickled that some girls paid me the attention instead of some pretentious fob.

Everywhere I go in the Viper I get compliments. Other expensive cars that I have produce mixed results, some compliments, some really nasty negatives. Is it because it's American? Is it because of the looks? I don't know, but as far as owning a performance vehicle of this caliber, it is the most pleasant experience I've had to date. My wife thinks I'm funny because I used to hate the attention that I'd get in the cars. The Viper has changed that. I can't tell you how many people and kids I've let sit in it and look under hood. Even when they've made me late at my deistination. For me, there is more value in the experience than the raw perfomance capabilities of the car.

Thank you Dodge for bringing this car and experience to life.
 
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lleone

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ViperJim:
I was only defensive to the guy who didnt like my "clown shoe".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Jim. lol

By the way, that was my first reaction, when I saw the RT/10. Of course, that could have been tempered by the fact I couldn't afford any nice cars at all in '92.
 

commoditybroker

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ViperJim:
Sean,,,,,

If the M5 ran a 3 sec 1/4 at 400 MPH, it could not compete with a Viper. It is just a plain old Sedan, nothing more. Power and speed will not turn it into an exotic car.

Go find an M5 board somewhere.......

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<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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That is freaking hillarious! Good job Jim....

Clown Shoe????
confused.gif
. What an idiot. Come on DC spin guy, a clown shoe?

Zach
 

KenH

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The M5 guy was probably pissed that the Viper got all the attention from the chicks. I personally can't tell I'm looking at an M5 until I see the M5 logo.

I ran my own little test this last weekend when I followed a very nice fixed up '70's style vette convertible for a while through town - usually, I just pass them
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I'm sure the driver was use to getting a lot of attention in his car, but with me behind him, everyone was turning to look at the Viper as though the vette didn't even exist and it was quite obvious to the vette owner I'm sure. After all, it's pretty hard to miss people hanging out of their car windows pointing and hollering.
 

Janni

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bwright:
More power means larger tires to put same to the pavement. Once again Dodge leads all comers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not a big deal - they went from 335 rears to 345s....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>That they are run flats means that a Viper driver will not be stranded by the side of the road with a can of fix-a-flat while his/her $80K car beckons all criminals. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um... my car has a spare tire...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Larger brakes require more air to cool and ventilate hence the wheel spoke pass-through design and the larger side scoop. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The side scoop does not ventilate the brakes.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The interior is a vast improvement over the older cars. The top mechanism on the older RT/10's was both an embarrasment on a car of any price and a leaky inconvenience at best. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Roadster =! Convertible

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"Everyone" loves the looks of the old Viper? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe a better statement would be Everyone KNOWS the looks of the old Viper. Not sure this can be said of the new car.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...but I note, factually, that the entire first year run has been sold out and the second year run is rapidly being spoken for. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who's buying / selling 2004s???

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Sales of the older car, however, have apparently fallen off a cliff. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps the ECONOMY might have something to do with this???


Nothing like diving in head first, BWright, huh?
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Jeff Torrey

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OH, the Old Clown Shoe!

Wait a minute, Markus lives in BMW country, but drives a Viper?

Just got back from a ride in my shoe. From my point of view; I was a 1/4 mile (5 cars) in back of a 525 BMW (white too, my favorite color) on the highway. The passenger (woman) in the BMW was turned around watching me until I passed them at 75 MPH on there left.

"If the shoe fits, drive it."
 

Stephen Yap

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Bwright,
Great patient reasonable response. I am not blown away by the SRT-10 design and in general convertibles but I like the technical improvements. And I don't think you are on crack
smile.gif


This thread was supposed to be a unique kill story
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CitySnake

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Torrey:
"If the shoe fits, drive it."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<FONT size="4">"Word!"</FONT s>
 

Bwright

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Let me first start by sincerely apologizing to Ileone. As I said in my original post that was a great story and a good kill. I am genuinely sorry that your thread has been turned into something else. It was not my intent so I will try to get right to the points.

It seems I am in the surreal position of defending a Viper to Viper owners. It is a bit bizarre to me and I am not actually certain how to do this. It would be like trying to convince someone that a family member of theirs that they thought was not particularly attractive should still not be referred to cruelly. If Viper owners cannot find something good to say about an upcoming Viper then maybe their wishes will come true and the car will go away. I do, however, believe they really should be careful what they ask for.

Flexx91, “Used to write” is actually not a key phrase. I stopped doing that because writing automotive articles, like many other things that are a labor of love, does not generally pay that well. If you ever decide to do it may I suggest that you go for magazines and not newspapers. Magazines pay more. I left that field some time ago and am now a senior officer at an investment firm. It is nice to be able to buy any car I want as opposed to merely testing cars I could not previously afford. Though I can afford any car I have a preference for American cars and products. Though Chrysler is now owned by Daimler, the Viper is still the closest thing to an “American” series production performance car (I don’t yet trust Saleen’s products) with more performance than my C5.

ViperJim, “Paid spin doctor from DC”? Have you ever said something good about your car? If so, does that make you a paid spin doctor for Dodge? I merely said I liked the SRT/10 and gave several reasons why. I did not call your car a clown shoe. Perhaps you should read my second post more carefully. In response to Alex’s post I noted that he should not be so quick to say that “Everyone” liked the Viper’s look as the term “clown shoe” is not a new one. It is a common pejorative used to put down the look of the GTS. I noted the term’s existence, I did not say I invented it. In fact, I go on to say that I “loved the GTS” and that “From a looks standpoint the GTS pegs the meter for MOST, myself included and is a very difficult act to follow.” I do not see how this could be any more clear. I am curious though how you came to the logical conclusion that a proposed “paid spin doctor” for DC would spend the company’s money putting down its cars. Fifteen years in the business has taught me quite a bit. I regret that you work with people who “have many years experience and they still do not have a clue what they are doing.”

Janni, Yes the tire width only went to a 345 but that difference is for both rear tires and when added to the corresponding increase in tire width at the fronts the total new available surface area is now great enough to make for a noticeable improvement in available grip. In addition, the change in tire height is beneficial to performance while being visually impressive. That your car has a spare is certainly a good thing but you would be surprised at the level of danger you are exposed to when changing a tire on the street. This is especially true if you are driving an expensive car. You may remember Bill Cosby had the misfortune to discover this when his only son stopped to change a tire on his expensive Mercedes SL roadster. The side scoop can allow heat from the brakes to pass out of the wheel well area. I am not sure I follow the comment on the roadster/convertible. I agree that your other comment would indeed be a better statement. I am not certain who is buying/selling 2004s as I am also unsure who bought all those 2003s. I would love to get my hands on a certificate though as Dodge is not yet letting non-owners get one. Any help you can provide in getting a second year (I would rather not get the first year) SRT/10 in the New York area would be greatly appreciated as Dodge dealers here have told me that it won’t happen. The sales figures are a good question. The economy is certainly on the ropes yet Dodge was able to pre-sell a year’s worth of a car that cost even more that the GEN I & II cars going for fire sale prices now. Expensive cars like Ferrari continue to sell at laughable prices above sticker. Same goes for expensive trucks like the G500 and new Range Rover. Diving in head first does not even come close to describing it. I still have to say it slowly to myself…I am defending a Viper to Viper owners. Surreal.

Stephen, thanks.

This might have been a more interesting experience but the vitriol on this thread is far too personal, unbecoming and unnecessary.

Once again, Ileone I really do apologize. To everyone else, thank you all for your time.
 

joe117

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I think the average C3 Vette, in stock, used car shape, is generally cheaper than an 84 C4. The 84 C4 had the, odd ball, cross fire injection and an often troublesome LCD dash board. The fact that there are lots of newer C4s around is more likely the reason the 84s are undesirable than the model change in that year.
As for the "fire sale" Vipers, the prices haven't changed much in the last year or so. If he can't give some figures to demonstrate his point, I would say he's just blowing his anti Viper horn. He says he can have any car he wants but he can't figure out a way to get a 2003 Viper and he wouldn't have a 2002 even at the "fire sale". What a load.
I don't think he's a shill for DC. I just think he's a typical automotive industry writer, ex or not, spouting the hype for the latest "hot item that you must have". "Dump your old one quick, nobody want's that old junk".
By the way, have any of you ever run into anyone in person who is a thrilled by BMWs as much as an automotive magazine writer?
 

Black SRT

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<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Rick Martino on 07-26-2002 at 08:39 PM</font>
 

garolittle

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Ummmmmmm .... I thought we were supposed to be talking about cute teenage girls! Let's get back on the subject here.
 

GaryA

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bwright:
Actually, with 15 years of automotive industry experience I use to write automotive articles for The New York Times and Details magazine. I have had pieces published in Automobile Magazine and Car & Driver and personally know editors from other automotive magazines of note. In sum, when it comes to cars I always know what I am talking about.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but do you know Evan Smith? That's the real question!

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lleone

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To all, especially Dave aka FenderJazz. Yup that was me sucking at Sunday's Valeo auto-x. I just kept missing that dang gate at the end of the long slalom. I wasn't the one who spun out, that was my dear friend whom I let drive my snake. He happened to have his Mom along on that run! Beside the spin out, trust me all, as a driver, he's worthy of a snake.
 
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lleone

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PS: The girls were out that pretentious HS/teenage period. I would say they were 19-21 year old college kids from their mannerisms. Hmm, that would legal in NY if it weren't for the Mrs...

Good night all,
Lou
 

Gavin

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BWRIGHT you are formally invited to visit my home in California where I will introduce you to the wonders of the Dodge Viper and an extra ordinary fine group of Viper owners here on the Central Coast of California all of whom are of similar opinion regarding said subject as I am.
We would love to have you come to one of our regular monthly meetings and debate us.

You see, we simply believe you lack......yes...education on the subject.
 

mjguflaw

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I have had pieces published in Automobile Magazine and Car & Driver and personally know editors from other automotive magazines of note. In sum, when it comes to cars I always know what I am talking about.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah right, anyone else unimpressed? Automobile magazine's former "automobiles of the year" have included such gems as the 1992 Cadillac Seville Touring Sedan, 1996 Honda Civic (hmmm, I can think of at least one other coupe that came out in '96 I much prefer), and 1997 Toyota RAV 4. This year's car you ask? A Subaru of all things. How many Viper owners would put these cars at the top of their wishlist?
 

Miles B

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Yep.. sounds just like a writer for an auto magazine to me. Sometimes I wonder "where do these guys come up with this ?!".. You watch tv shows and the way they review some cars is just so wierd - I guess it's from having driven that many different cars and trying to rate them, they just go a bit nuts. Same thing with bike magazines.. they give some bikes shocking reviews when they are crazy fun to ride, and just jump on the R1/GSXR bandwagon. Everyone I know agrees.. don't believe a d@mn thing you read in car/bike magazines

I was at the NY auto show.

People were NOT very impressed by the SRT. There was a bigger crowd on the street around a GTS. I was definitely unimpressed and commented "looks Japanese" before I even knew the designer is.. the car really does look like that - plasticky like a Honda. The comments were "hey - the new Viper.. cool.. hey look a V10 truck!"

I agree with the comment regarding buying it as a performance car. For 99% of people the deciding factor must be image (and why not? Vipers RULE!), otherwise, just go get that 8sec camaro.

I believe that the original comment about the M5 was actually from an M5 OWNER. If so, HE is the knowledgeable party, and if you don't own one, YOU are the knowledgeless.
 

ViperGTS

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AlexRedSnake:
&gt;&gt;&gt;The new Viper LOOKS JAPANESE&lt;&lt;&lt;
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Bwright:
&gt;&gt;&gt;I have had pieces published in Automobile Magazine and Car &
Driver and personally know editors from other automotive magazines of note. In sum, when it comes to cars I always know what I am talking about.&lt;&lt;&lt;

May be YOU know - unfortunately, others DON´T!

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lleone

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KILL THIS THREAD!

You guys have taken my simple, HAPPY thread and turned it a flame war.

Bad posters, BAD!
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lleone:
KILL THIS THREAD!

You guys have taken my simple, HAPPY thread and turned it a flame war.

Bad posters, BAD!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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