Opinions on this new Viper VARARAM intake?

[vipah]

Eddy Eddy Eddy,

YOU need to prove that it works. Not the other way around.

Don't be a snake oil salesman and try to just razzle dazzle people into buying. Show some proof!

By the way, the Vipair isn't about pressure it is about colder air, remember? Or does the story change based on opportunity?

 

[Torquemonster]

Very simple - forget dynos - they'll never prove anything because they can't simulate high speed.

Take a stock Viper - time it from 100mph to 150mph - repeat 3-4 times both ways and take an average.

In same temps, wind and conditions - repeat with Vipair or Varrroooomm or whatever the hell it is - and compare.

If these things work at all they work at speed and that was always obvious

I thought

If there is any gain - that is how you will notice it best and it is easy to check. If it works it will be why road racers claim they increase mph on the straights with them.

Someone get this over with already - I'm confident that cold frontal air at 100mph+ will be beneficial if the air pick up is not in a vacuum.

I know this - if I tried something and dropped 0.2 sec on my lap time - that is all the science I care about....

 

[GTS-R 001]

Vipah,

It is and always has been about both. Maybe you should read through the Vipair™ thread and refresh your memory. Cooler (ambient temp) air, and increased airflow from high pressure air source in front of the Rad.

 

[STUGOTS]

Don't be a snake oil salesman and try to just razzle dazzle people into buying.

Snake oil does this??

 

[vipah]

Eddy,

Perhaps you should read the information posted by the INVENTOR again.

 

[GTS-R 001]

Vipah,
I invented the Vipair™, I own the trademark, I own the patent. What is your point?

 

[vipah]

Patent? I don't see any patent. Are you stretching the truth again Eddy?

The point is that you can not prove any performance improvements and you change your story to suite your target. Now if you could prove any of your claims than do it, but don't just make erroneous analogies to try and justify them.

Now how about posting the patent number so we can all see that you are telling the truth about that at least.



By the way, a quick trademark search on www.uspto.gov doesn't turn up any results for vipair. Strange.

 

[GTS-R 001]

Vipah,

A trademark does not need to be registered to exist, the precedent goes to the first proven use(commonlaw use). The patent # has not been issued yet. I thought we went through this all months ago on the other thread???

PS. I am not the one hiding behind my keyboard taking feeble *** shots, isn't it time that you grow up and conduct yourself like a man?

 

[vipah]

Your pattern of misleading behavior is becoming more clear now.

You say you have a patent, but you don't, you say you have a trademark but you don't. Now why should anyone believe your claims of performance. I guess in your little mind that this kind of behavior is manly.

Now isn't it time you conduct yourself like an HONEST individual rather than the typical used car salesman.

 

[GTS-R 001]

Vipah,

Grow up.

 

[vipah]

Eddy,

Truth hurts huh?

 

[GTS-R 001]

Vipah,
Just because you have verbal diarrhea does not make what you say truth and what others say lies. You just end up looking like a fool.

PS. Sold another Vipair this morning to another guy that thinks you are an idiot!

 

[joe117]

Come on now guys, no nasty words or it's a time out for both of you.
Notice Edmonton, I'm not coming back with any nastyness in response to what you said to me.

I'd rather have you explain the pressure/cold air thing.

The cold air and the pressure were the two original claims for the Vipair.

The difference between the OAT and the airbox temperature were measured on a car at high speed.
There was no change when Vipair was compared to no Vipair.

The difference in pressure was measured on a car at high speed.
There was no change in pressure between Vipair and no Vipair.
You said that was because the airbox has holes.
Do the holes have to be plugged for Vipair to work?

 

[joe117]

"Joe wants to figure it all out he has 57 pages of formulas to apply"

Edmonton,
The 57 page article was YOUR proof that the NACA duct wouldn't work well on the Viper.

I pointed out that the testing was done at 475 mph.

I asked you to show me the relevant pages that prove your point.

I didn't get your answer.

 

[Edgar]

Ha Ha. Welcome to our hell. Every time a new intake comes out with all types of claims the Corvette community goes all crazy with posts about results and stuff. Vararam is particularly one that sparks the hottest debates as to whether the real is a "ram-air" effect.

Anyhow, I went from a K&N in my Vette with a box and hole in my shourd to the $300 Vararam. I found on my car the results to be very immeasurable, maybe 1 mph at best.

Bottomline I tell the Vette guys, if you got something, don't trade, keep it. If you got nothing, then Vararam is a good option.

 

[GTS-R 001]

Joe,

Thanks for the professional approach, in sequence.

1) I do not think that a propper temp test was done, if I remember correctly it was only done at one speed 55 or 65 mph or something like that, also I do not believe a vipair was used, just the access panel was removed. A more valid test would be to temp test at all speeds in 5 mph increments. There would theoretically speaking be a speed when airflow from under the car would scavenge the under hood heat from the engine bay area and no temperature differences would be noticeable, but up until that point there would be a higher temp under hood from 0 mph to that speed.

2) Yes the 3 x 1" drain holes in the bottom of the airbox would need to be capped off to accurately measure the actual created air pressure. This test would also benefit from incremental speed adjustments.

3) The 57 page report on the NACA duct is support for the Chrysler GTSR race team finding that the NACA duct created a vaccum situation in the airbox at speed and therefore caused performance degredation from that point on. The report states clearly that NACA ducts are best suited for use on flat surfaces where there is little or no boundary layer of air. The report states that there is 50% pressure within the NACA duct during the test.

4) The 475 mph test was done to support the theories denoted in the report, they also surmise that the reduction in pressure will increase with higher speeds (ie more speed less pressure). This would support the inverse as well, meaning that as speed gets closer to zero pressure would increase, so therefore at any speed there will be a loss in pressure in the NACA duct, the test just happened to take place at 475 mph, It would also seem that if the Viper NACA duct had the special deflectors on the sides of the walls of the duct that this loss in pressure would be reduced, but the viper NACA has straight side walls.

Joe, I guess one real good question would be, If the NACA duct on the viper is a positive influence on performance why did the factory race GTSR's remove it altogether? You would think that if it could give them an advantage that they would have kept it??

 

[vipah]

Eddy,

Sorry you don't understand truth from lies.



I could care less how many Vipairs you sell.

 

[VinR1]

EdmontonGTS is correct. NACA ducts, unless mounted onto a surface parallel to the road, will cause a vacuum that actually PULLS air from the engine compartment - similar to the way cowl hoods pull hot air from the rear of the engine compartment. The vararam intake would work well with a hood similar to that used on a WS6 Trans Am but not the Viper's...

BTW, If it helps, I've got my masters in Aerospace Engineering from Texas A&M University...

 

[DLTARNU]

"Sold another Vipair this morning to another guy that thinks you are an idiot!"

...who after installing the unit, drove to the Barnum & Bailey Circus to marvel at the recently unearthed 'fossilized unicorn'.

 

[Ulysses]

VinR1, do you mean perpendicular rather than parallel?

If I recall my physics correctly, the air rushing across a surface causes lower pressure, i.e., hurricane winds rushing across the roof of a house causes the roof to blow off when the pressure outside becomes less than the pressure inside.

(just looking for a clarification, not a slam to you)

 

[VinR1]

Ulysses, no offense taken

NACA ducts are more effective if mounted parallel to the road surface. If my race car history serves me correctly, they were originally designed to REMOVE air and pressure from engine compartments... Car designers like to use them to give cars a more 'racier' look but in the Viper's case, it may actually cost a small amount of power. Notice that the Gen III's, Comp Coupes, and Ram SRT-10s dont have NACA ducts, but rather a true 'ram air' style scoop??

 

[GTS-R 001]

VinR1,
Please send me an email, I would like to get your professional opinion on our Vipair system.
email: [email protected]

 

[Ulysses]

"NACA ducts are more effective if mounted parallel to the road surface....they were originally designed to REMOVE air and pressure from engine compartments..."

Yeah, that is right along the lines of what I imagined it would do if it were parallel to the surface. At some speed, air would come out of the NACA duct on a Viper.

Where I got all goofed up is when you said:

"NACA ducts, unless mounted onto a surface parallel to the road, will cause a vacuum that actually PULLS air from the engine compartment"

I was thinking it should read:

"NACA ducts, unless mounted onto a surface perpendicular to the road, will cause a vacuum that actually PULLS air from the engine compartment"

Or am I still goofed up?

 

[Ulysses]

DOH! I think I know what you are talking about now. I think you are referring to a NACA duct below the plane of a surface versus a NACA duct opening above the plane of a surface (i.e. parallel) rather than what I was picturing, a opening parallel to the plane of a surface versus an opening perpendicular to that surface.

 

[joe117]

Edmonton,
1. "A more valid test would be to temp test at all speeds in 5 mph increments"

The questions that come to mind would be.
Did you do this test in development or during the last year while you have been selling these devices?

2. "drain holes in the bottom of the airbox would need to be capped off to accurately measure the actual created air pressure"

If the holes must be plugged to measure the pressure, then wouldn't the holes need to be plugged in order to provide this pressure?
Is that plugging in the instructions?

3. "The report states clearly that NACA ducts are best suited for use on flat surfaces where there is little or no boundary layer of air"

Yes, I see that the report says that the duct is intended for flat surface mounting.
However, I don't see any reason to believe that the air flow over the front of the car is going to cause any meaningful boundary layer at Viper speeds.
We can't just say that because aircraft at 475 mph have a certain flow, around curves like the front of the hood, that a Viper will do the same at car speeds.

4. "475 mph test was done to support the theories denoted in the report, they also surmise that the reduction in pressure will increase with higher speeds"

Ok, so at car speeds, how much pressure is there?

5."If the NACA duct on the viper is a positive influence on performance why did the factory race GTSR's remove it altogether"

Something that gives a slight edge to a racer that will see speeds over 150 mph, isn't necessarily going to help a stock Viper on the street or at the drags.

I'll give you this much.
There may very well be some value to Vipair at very high speeds.
Vipair is an inexpensive mod. If folks want to put one on their car just in case they might get a boost at 150 mph, I don't see a problem.
My whole problem with this device was the way it was announced on this site. the quote was,
"feels more like 50 hp"
I called BS on that because I don't believe anyone is going to feel anything from this device even if it does give a small boost at very high speed.

Why not make reasonable claims and don't say that it will give a SOTP increase?

 

[GTS-R 001]

Joe,

1) I dyno tested and got 16 rwhp and 16 rwtq, This was a confirmation that there was either RAm air cooler air. I did not feel the need at the time to determine how it was derived incrementally, but I will do this now as I believe it has some value. I will have this testing done by an independant third party (unbiased). thanks joe for pushing me to do this.

2) I can't put this in the instructions as if someone fills their airbox with water I would hate to have to buy them a new engine, I will add it ina do at your own risk and get this tested as well.

3) I will get a professional assessment of the boundary layer at varying speeds on the Viper front hood area, it is quite large in fact if you look at wind tunnel tests of the viper.

4)Again I will get a professional opinion on this.

5) Joe the GTSR race cars saw the problem between 100-120mph. This doesn't mean it wasn't already starting to happen at 60-80, they just felt it at 100-120.

Thanks Joe

Steve

PS. the SOTP felt just like when I added B&B headers to my 2000GTS, that is how I came up with 50 SOTP horsepower

 

[9 seconds]

So are the NASCAR guys trying to **** the hot air off of the drivers with their hoses and NACA ducts on the side windows?

 

[vipah]

They were getting too much oxygen.

 

[vipah]

Didn't RussM (an independant third party) already to the testing? He showed no gains as I recall.

Rather than get an expert to evaluate things how about testing? So far all the testing seems to point to no gains. Most people prefer to see real test results rather than a theoretical analysis.

In fact, through a theoretical analysis I can prove that when you drop something it will never hit the ground. Testing proves otherwise though.

 

[VinR1]

sorry Ulysses, Ive confused you and myself as well... lol

like I said, their true purpose is to remove air from a particular area such as the engine compartment. If mounted in certain positions (like I also said, there are literally thousands of variables to consider) then NACA ducts CAN be used as an inlet to provide air and positive pressure, BUT their original and most beneficial purpose is to create a vacuum to remove air... its so difficult to explain things like that with a keyboard... it would be much easier to get my point across in person.

Joe: in EdmontonGTS's defense, I honestly feel that DC's purpose for adding the NACA duct was to provide an outlet for the stream of air coming up from behind the bumper cover... Ill try to explain without confusing everyone... you see, when at speed, there is a large amount of cool, fresh air coming up from the bottom of the Vipers, the NACA duct provides an outlet for whatever air isnt pulled into the air box - since the 'outlet' is smaller than the 'inlet', you have pressure building up - but since the engine (in theory) uses more air at higher speeds/rpms, the pressure inside the engine compartment should remain somewhat stable. The vacuum created by the NACA duct helps to 'pull' fresh air into the engine compartment, creating more horsepower... make sense??

based on this, I feel that the Vipair would be more effective and add more power as compared to the Vararam... IMHO - same theory for open filters too

*I dont know how many GenII owners drive in the rain, but assuming you dont stop the vehicle for a long period of time, you will notice that not a drop of rain enters the engine compartment... why?? You've got a huge hole in the middle of your hood and not one single drop of rain enters... reason being is that this 'stream of air' that EdmontonGTS was referring to earlier 'pulls' rain and moisture across the NACA duct, preventing any rain from entering your engine compartment...

EdmontonGTS: mail sent

9 seconds: like I said earlier, there are thousands of variables to consider in placement of a NACA duct... if you look closely at placement and position of the window-mounted NACA duct that NASCAR drivers use, you should see how it provides positive air pressure