Positive Chrysler Article for a Change

[RTTTTed]

Twin clutch paddle shiftered transmissions are faster ... I'd buy it. That would end the Viper/vette comments if the Viper was 3 tenths faster no vette would keep up.

However, the vette's only get the paddleshifters on the base models so we have to assume that they aren't strong enough for Viper power.

Ted

 

[Chrissss]

please nobody kill me for saying this. i know i wouldnt want one, but i do know my wife and some other folks would.
if Dodge could put in auto as a option in the Viper i think they could sell way more of them. just thinking of that for a while as maybe a way to help keep making the Viper and help Dodge make some profit on them as well.
i think it would open a lot of oppurtunitys up for the Viper market-thru dodge as well as the aftermarket.

uh.............no!

 

[ViperTony]

i didnt say lower the price and qaulity,thats what a lesser engine would do. the think tank so far hasnt done so good in keeping the Viper alive, so i guess smart ass comments will do it.

On the contrary, the think tank has done a great job keeping the Viper alive. It's alive and selling even in this economy. But the Viper is not going to save them. Smart ass comments...maybe, speaking the TRUTH...definitely! Sugar coating doesn't help.

What makes the Viper a success is the fact that's its not built for everyone, its built for a unique group of drivers. IMO, adding an auto or paddle shifters as an option is not going to save Chrysler, rather, adding vehicles that the public wants WILL save them. Turning the Viper into something platitudinous to sell a few more units...the Vette already fills that need.

Let's not forget CAFE, the EPA and Obama (and potentially individual state-mandated pollution standards for automakers)...all of which are having a significant impact on the auto industry. When you look at the external factors facing Chrysler...Chuck's idea is not really that sarcastic.

 

[Kala]

i know several handicapped individuals who would love to own a viper, and an auto of some sort would allow that.

If I can make this hardware work, the system will be able to work on any car that has a Tremec T-56, 6 speed. Vipers,Challengers, Mustangs, Z06.
People would have to shift, it wont behave like an automatic... There just wont be a clutch.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Thanks Juli
I'm fully prepared to get flamed for this, but I'd rather mod my car, than do a permanent titanium mod to my knee...

Believe me, if not for a necessity, I would have never embarked on this headache of an idea...

I wanted to have it completed for Viper Days, but it's looking like thats not going to be possible without the software.

CALLING ALL COMPUTER GEEKS!

I'm a mechanical engineer, so I'd go for the knee mod... but here's an idea.

Why not a thumb switch to run power steering fluid into the hydraulic clutch? Use the right size orifice to control the engage/disengage speed and a pressure relief valve to limit pressure. It doesn't even have to disable the OEM pedal operation.

You have your hand on the shifter anyway, push thumb button to engage clutch, pull/push on shifter to change gears, let go of thumb switch to disengage clutch... A more clever hydraulics guy than me could probably give you different engage from disengage speeds, and maybe a separate system for stoplights.

Another alternative is similar: a paddle clutch. Instead of using levers on the wheel to shift the transmission, use them to operate the clutch, again via the power steering fluid. I've seen disability aids where instead of a paddle there is an entire ring behind the wheel so hand position doesn't matter. This might give you more stroke so it's easier to control engage/disengage speed.

That's only a few minutes of thinking about it, not a perfect idea but seems possible without software.

 

[Kala]

I'm a mechanical engineer, so I'd go for the knee mod... but here's an idea.

Why not a thumb switch to run power steering fluid into the hydraulic clutch? Use the right size orifice to control the engage/disengage speed and a pressure relief valve to limit pressure. It doesn't even have to disable the OEM pedal operation.

You have your hand on the shifter anyway, push thumb button to engage clutch, pull/push on shifter to change gears, let go of thumb switch to disengage clutch... A more clever hydraulics guy than me could probably give you different engage from disengage speeds, and maybe a separate system for stoplights.

Another alternative is similar: a paddle clutch. Instead of using levers on the wheel to shift the transmission, use them to operate the clutch, again via the power steering fluid. I've seen disability aids where instead of a paddle there is an entire ring behind the wheel so hand position doesn't matter. This might give you more stroke so it's easier to control engage/disengage speed.

That's only a few minutes of thinking about it, not a perfect idea but seems possible without software.

Another hot topic for this totally derailed thread... I'm waiting to see if the stem cell injections being done in Colorado actually work, before even thinking about a knee replacement.

I actually looked into the Duck Clutch, which is the primary system gets used in most handicapped setups. From what I was told from the maker of the duck clutch, it would not shift fast enough to drive it on the track. Works with a thumb micro switch. If I can't get the fast shifting paddles to work, I may have to go the duck clutch route.

The parts I'm trying to make work, does use an electro-hydraulic controlled clutch... Probably similar to what you are talking about... Your idea of a thumb switch, may be important to making this whole thing work, if I can't get the software written. Thanks!

 

[Viper rolls]

Regardless of what transmission changes are made to the Viper it isn't going to turn it into a high volume selling car. The Viper (is great) is a niche car that brings a halo to the company but doesn't drive significant business on the hole.

What Chrysler needs is high volume sales in broad markets - this will increase revenue, profit and most importantly marketshare.

 

[mike & juli]

Another hot topic for this totally derailed thread... I'm waiting to see if the stem cell injections being done in Colorado actually work, before even thinking about a knee replacement.

I hope the stem cell injections work out. A whole NEW topic for discussion! ~juli

 

[Big Mac]

Dodge can barely make an auto that lives behind the HEMI, much less the V10.

 

[Warfang]

I don't think any of us wants to change the Viper's identity at all. I still think we're all mostly in agreement that the Viper stay the RAWBEAST that it is. Like you said, whatever anyone wants to do with their own possession is their right. I didn't say to make it an AUTOMATIC (like my paddle-shifting Vette is) tranny. Let's see if someone can do this with the software while keeping the Tremec...the logistics blow my mind~! ~juli

It's a slippery slope. Kala has the right idea. Get it made. Offer it as aftermarket. Make tons of money off the wusses that whine for it. God bless America!

The car MUST STAY BASIC... at least as basic as humanly and legally as possible. If it requires the level of complexity that Kala is knee-deep (pun kinda intended) in now... I don't want it in my car. The rule of thumb should be: If you can make it drive the same way without computers, it's acceptable.

So while Vipers DO have technologies in them like ABS, and drive by wire... these are technological improvements based on the basic principles of a car. You can have brakes and throttle without a computer, whereas there are no reliable, mechanical way of devising a paddle shifter. You're basically telling a robot to clutch and shift for you at the optimum parameters. There's no need to develop the coordination between your hands, legs, eyes and ears - needed to drive the car well in the purest way.

Rawness of the Viper not only defines its power, but also in the the skills needed to drive it well.

 

[RTTTTed]

Dodge can barely make an auto that lives behind the HEMI, much less the V10.

Wow, he's recovered enough to spell since falling out of his Chevette,

 

[Big Mac]

Wow, he's recovered enough to spell since falling out of his Chevette,

What are you talking about?

 

[C-Note]

Wow, he's recovered enough to spell since falling out of his Chevette,

LMAO!!!!

 

[Big Mac]

Ok so I don't get it? Why is this so funny?

 

[Big Mac]

Dodge can barely make an auto that lives behind the HEMI, much less the V10.

I guess I should have said "Dodge can barely make an AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION that lives behind the HEMI, much less the V10"...

Evidently somebody thought I was bashing their precious Viper, and not the horrible Dodge AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSIONS.

And YES I speak from hands-on personal experience with the AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSIONS in both the HEMI Ram trucks and LX platform (Charger, Magnum and 300) vehicles.

I didn't realize you guys were so sensative...

 

[RTTTTed]

I guess I should have said "Dodge can barely make an AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION that lives behind the HEMI, much less the V10"...

Evidently somebody thought I was bashing their precious Viper, and not the horrible Dodge AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSIONS.

And YES I speak from hands-on personal experience with the AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSIONS in both the HEMI Ram trucks and LX platform (Charger, Magnum and 300) vehicles.

I didn't realize you guys were so sensative...

It's because the worst in the WORLD autp prods are"

Harmonic Balancer - 400sb GM
Toque conv fex plate - sb GM
rear axle - GM 10 bolt
Auto trans -Turbo 350, R 2000, etc. etc.
-----all these caused SFI replacement parts for NHRA useage ----
V8 - 305
V6 - Chev
most dangerous pickup by fire - GM - fuel tank outside frame.
worst car Chevette

Although Ford built a Pinto Dodge didn't do any of these.
The full time chaindrive transfercase designed and built by Dodge is the one that came in Ford GM and Dodge. It's the best in the world. Dodge used Dana 60s which were the strongest diff in the world, Hemis were the most powerful engines built in the auto world. Viper engines are the biggest pasenger car engines in the world, Viper engines are the highest horsepower n/a engines produced. Michelin invented it's best tires for the Viper. then PS2s and sport cups for the Viper. Chrysler contracted the T56 trans. for the Viper. Improvements to the transmissions and differentials are also requested by Chrysler for the Viper.

That's why transmission comments are funny if you're insulting Dodge ones. They always built the best. Not indestructable, but the best. I haven't even heard of a bad SRT8 Jeep trans and the SRTHemi hooked to All Wheel Drive would be the toughest test of any tranny.

I've only included a short list. It could have been 5 times as long.

Ted

 

[Kala]

You're basically telling a robot to clutch and shift for you at the optimum parameters.

UM not... With this system, people can still screw up shifts at their leisure. Driver has to shift, its not going to suddenly be an automatic... I guess if you wanted optimum parameters, you could install a shift light...

This is the same system that gets used on F1 cars.

 

[Big Mac]

I wasn't tryng to get in a debate of Dodge vs. Chevy. I happen to know for a fact that even in a BONE STOCK HEMI RAM truck that the transmission will fail under repeated WOT at around 70mph. (Like passing on the freeway). This isn't my personal or rare "I beat on my my truck that I never maintained" experience, I have personally never had one fail (I pulled both of mine and spent over $3k on upgrades before it blew up). This is my experience from running a HEMI oriented performance shop for 3 years. The ram trucks have had 100's if not 1000's of transmission failures.

The NAG1 transmission in the Jeep and LX platform cars are better than the 45RFE in the HEMI trucks, but they still have notorious leaks (on just about every transmission it seems - an Oring on the fill tube) and I have had my hands on 2 that were blown up in SRT8's and have read about others.

I haven't done much research into the 1000+ hp vipers running automatic transmissions, but I would be shocked if they were running a Mopar automatic.

I've seen adapters for Mopar engine to GM automatic trnsmission, but I can't recall seeing one for Chevy engine to Mopar automatic transmission.

To your post on Chevy has built some junk - yep they sure have. So has every other car company. Are you going to trade your Viper for an automatic transmission K car? Didn't think so.

Also the NAG1 in the Jeeps and LX's is a Mercedes transmission, I don't think there is an actual Mopar designed part on or in it. LOL

You might also check around the SRT10 Viper truck forums and the older Ram V10 forums to see how the automatic lives behind the V10. Then check out the CTD (that's Cummins Turbo) truck forums and read about their issues too.

I may only have about 20 posts here, but I an not some rookie who's checkbook is bigger than his tool box. I've been in the car business in some form form for 20 years and more than 75% of that has been in the performance side of things. I've had hot rods from all the "big 3" and have turned wrenches on most makes available in the US.

The ONLY point I was trying to make was that Dodge doesn't have an automatic transmission in its inventory that would live behind the V10 in a performace vehicle like the Viper.

Instead of trying to be cute and post about other makes nowhere listed in my original post, why don't you tell us which automatic Mopar transmission in stock form you would throw behind the V10 in a Viper.

As far as slamming Dodge on a Dodge forum, it happens here and on all the other Dodge forums daily. If not the traffic would be far less than what it is. I also give them credit where credit is due.

I actually traded DOWN (in retail value) to get into my Viper, so I am not a hater. My other cars are a project 76 Corvette Stingray, and a 2006 Ram 3500 HEMI Dually.

 

[Warfang]

UM not... With this system, people can still screw up shifts at their leisure. Driver has to shift, its not going to suddenly be an automatic... I guess if you wanted optimum parameters, you could install a shift light...

This is the same system that gets used on F1 cars.

The point is that there is no low tech version of a paddle system. The paddles sends a signal to a computer that does the shifting, and by optimal parameters, I meant in regards to making the car run at all, not it's application to racing... this is also why paddles are technically faster.

Like I've said. I have no problems with having them done... just don't think that's something that should be considered a stock option on a car that's known for being a throwback, low-tech, driver's car.

btw- F1 is a joke, and they're trying to go low tech as well... maybe they'll get rid of paddles eventually like traction control, and let their drivers be drivers instead of video game players.

 

[Vypr Phil]

Kala,

Great work on your part! I will assist you in making this work and will also let Dan Cragin (DC Performance) know that I will participate in the development, testing and fine tuning of this exciting upgrade.

I understand the “purist’s” point of view but this should in no way discourage you or anybody else interested in this technology from going forward and public with this project.

Many people resent the introduction of new technology as they believe it distracts from the original intent of a product.

Look, some folks like wood frame/fabric covered light planes while others will go all out with the latest composite technology and advance technology and performance by quantum leaps.

All I am saying here is: follow your heart, not saying that one is right while the other is wrong, it is a matter of personal perspective, taste and beliefs. The same should apply here.

Phil

 

[Kala]

Thanks Phil!

I need all the help I can get

 

[Vypr Phil]

Thanks Phil!

I need all the help I can get

You are most welcome Kala!

The transmission hardware already exists and is used on the Aston Martin Vanquish and possibly other AM models.



The challenges will be:

• Deciding on steering column mounted paddles or steering wheel mounted paddles. With the first version the paddles will always be in the same place, 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock; with the second version, the paddles will rotate with the steering wheel.
• Modifying the steering column to accept and install the paddle shifter assembly.
• Clutch actuation modification; let's see what AM and other use. Should mostly be off the shelf components although minor machining might be required.
• Adapting the AM control unit to work on the Viper. This will require some reprogramming.
• Problems might arise in the area of engine ECU/transmission ECU interface for such events as temporarily retarding timing during shifts. This will require a very talented and experienced programmer. From my perspective, this programming will be the most delicate part of the process but also the most rewarding.

Look forward to this project! Will definitely install it on my next Viper too.

Phil

 

[Warfang]

Kala,

Great work on your part! I will assist you in making this work and will also let Dan Cragin (DC Performance) know that I will participate in the development, testing and fine tuning of this exciting upgrade.

I understand the “purist’s” point of view but this should in no way discourage you or anybody else interested in this technology from going forward and public with this project.

Many people resent the introduction of new technology as they believe it distracts from the original intent of a product.

Look, some folks like wood frame/fabric covered light planes while others will go all out with the latest composite technology and advance technology and performance by quantum leaps.

All I am saying here is: follow your heart, not saying that one is right while the other is wrong, it is a matter of personal perspective, taste and beliefs. The same should apply here.

Phil

Good analogy on the planes... you can't call a wood/fabric plane a wood/fabric plane if you use modern materials. I'm all for modern technologies... in a car that was designed with that in mind. The Viper was NOT.

That said, I'm looking forward to seeing this completed... correct me if I'm wrong but if this works in a gen3, could it also work on a gen2. In the aftermarket, this would be awesome for owners with knee issues like Kaya and just the usual whiny suspects. Heck... I'd consider getting a second Viper with paddles and TC just to say I got one... I just wouldn't demand Chrysler to do it for me.

 

[Chrissss]

I wasn't tryng to get in a debate of Dodge vs. Chevy. I happen to know for a fact that even in a BONE STOCK HEMI RAM truck that the transmission will fail under repeated WOT at around 70mph. (Like passing on the freeway). This isn't my personal or rare "I beat on my my truck that I never maintained" experience, I have personally never had one fail (I pulled both of mine and spent over $3k on upgrades before it blew up). This is my experience from running a HEMI oriented performance shop for 3 years. The ram trucks have had 100's if not 1000's of transmission failures.

The NAG1 transmission in the Jeep and LX platform cars are better than the 45RFE in the HEMI trucks, but they still have notorious leaks (on just about every transmission it seems - an Oring on the fill tube) and I have had my hands on 2 that were blown up in SRT8's and have read about others.

I haven't done much research into the 1000+ hp vipers running automatic transmissions, but I would be shocked if they were running a Mopar automatic.

I've seen adapters for Mopar engine to GM automatic trnsmission, but I can't recall seeing one for Chevy engine to Mopar automatic transmission.

To your post on Chevy has built some junk - yep they sure have. So has every other car company. Are you going to trade your Viper for an automatic transmission K car? Didn't think so.

Also the NAG1 in the Jeeps and LX's is a Mercedes transmission, I don't think there is an actual Mopar designed part on or in it. LOL

You might also check around the SRT10 Viper truck forums and the older Ram V10 forums to see how the automatic lives behind the V10. Then check out the CTD (that's Cummins Turbo) truck forums and read about their issues too.

I may only have about 20 posts here, but I an not some rookie who's checkbook is bigger than his tool box. I've been in the car business in some form form for 20 years and more than 75% of that has been in the performance side of things. I've had hot rods from all the "big 3" and have turned wrenches on most makes available in the US.

The ONLY point I was trying to make was that Dodge doesn't have an automatic transmission in its inventory that would live behind the V10 in a performace vehicle like the Viper.

Instead of trying to be cute and post about other makes nowhere listed in my original post, why don't you tell us which automatic Mopar transmission in stock form you would throw behind the V10 in a Viper.

As far as slamming Dodge on a Dodge forum, it happens here and on all the other Dodge forums daily. If not the traffic would be far less than what it is. I also give them credit where credit is due.

I actually traded DOWN (in retail value) to get into my Viper, so I am not a hater. My other cars are a project 76 Corvette Stingray, and a 2006 Ram 3500 HEMI Dually.

God another vette guy posing and spouting his resume on this website....why why why.

 

[C-Note]

God another vette guy posing and spouting his resume on this website....why why why.

I'm with you, that guy that has the same name as a hamburger with "special sauce" needs to just give it up...

 

[RTTTTed]

Guess he's never heard of a 727? Best trans in the world. And yes the stockers with a Cheatah never had problems with 7-800rwhp. I guess that if someone actually did the front Hemi clutch drum and the overunning clutch they could easily run 1,000rwhp

What GM trans were you referring to? 1tony1 has a modifed Powerglide that he uses for dragging. Being a 2 speed it's design really has no parts to break - course no one actually DRIVES with a 2 speed. GM hasn't made any since the sixties as they were very unpopular.

Oh yah, about 65% of the vehicles in this area are Dodge Rams. NO transmission failures. There are only a few GM trucks and yes they have had some transmission failures. I think you're completely incorrect and I've never heard of a famous GM tranny. Although there was a few vette guys that posted on here that they thought the Viper could use the vette trans (which is BS since the vette trans is part of the rear axle) just because it uses the Dodge designed T56 style. But, with all your vast experience you knew that, right?

Ted

 

[RTTTTed]

I wish that people would stop writing "all big three auto manufacturers made junk/bad cars". We can all name a half dozen unsafe dangerous GMs. We can all name 1 (smarter/older guys can name 2) bad/dangerous Fords. I cannot think of any famous bad/dangerous Dodge - ever! Dodge never supplied roll/crash bars, explosafe gas tank foam, never built rear axles that would break often and allow the back tires to fall off the car causing accidents like the GM 10 and 12 bolt rears.

Dodge never built any exploding cars, trucks, SUVs or cars.

DON'T BS US. GIVE US A NAME THAT SHOWS UP IN ALL RECALL BOOKS.

Some of us actually know what we're talking about.

Ted

 

[mike & juli]

You are most welcome Kala!

The transmission hardware already exists and The challenges will be:

• Deciding on steering column mounted paddles or steering wheel mounted paddles. With the first version the paddles will always be in the same place, 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock; with the second version, the paddles will rotate with the steering wheel.
• Modifying the steering column to accept and install the paddle shifter assembly.
• Clutch actuation modification; let's see what other use. Should mostly be off the shelf components although minor machining might be required.
• Adapting the control unit to work on the Viper. This will require some reprogramming.
• Problems might arise in the area of engine ECU/transmission ECU interface for such events as temporarily retarding timing during shifts. This will require a very talented and experienced programmer. From my perspective, this programming will be the most delicate part of the process but also the most rewarding.
• Look forward to this project! Will definitely install it on my next Viper too.
• Phil

Hi Phil~
Just IMO...if I COULD have had the paddles on the STEERING COLUMN instead of the steering wheel, I think one could shift even faster, with less looking/feeling for the paddles on the WHEEL as you are turning. (On my Corvette) That's the only complaint I have on the paddle shifters. It's FASSSSSSSST....no lifting off the throttle, one just keeps accelerating~!!! VERY good of you to help out!!!! Hope a programmer can be found. GO KALA! ~juli