Supercharger SRT10 '08

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The main problem with getting a viper to be quick is the fact that he viper engine revs so much lower than everyone else, they keep going when we have to shift, lower gears and viola, we have to shift even more. If someone could get a viper engine to rev to 7K - problem solved, but with most of us shifting at 5400 = big difference


Its not quite that simple. Horsepower is horsepower. As long as the same number of shifts are made, two cars of the same weight with the same horsepower output should be nearly identical down the track so long as one of them doesn't have an overly-peaky torque curve [which the Viper doesn't]

The final drive ratio will make up the difference. A car with a lower redline and more torque will simply be geared lower than the car with the higher redline- as it must be making less torque at a higher RPM to have the same horsepower output. You see? It doesn't really matter.

Now, if you just raise the redline, and can continue to make power- of course, the car will get faster, but you are also making considerably more horsepower by default. Its just not an apples to apples comparison.

IMO, the Viper's main problem is that due to its lower redline, it must make considerably more torque than some of its higher RPM counterparts to create the same power output. Now, this does help in one way as we dont have the lag issues, out of peak torque issues, etc as the high revving high power cars often have, but, we do have a severe problem with keeping transmissions together as a result. It is far easier to make something with the small diameter of a gear to spin a few thousand RPM higher... however, making them handle 500 extra lb's of torque instead is a whole other story.

As the market has told, when you get a viper to hook, and put a trans in it that can handle the torque... it is a brutal combination.
 

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Or if my understanding is correctly, one of those Euro dual clutch 7 speed transmissions might just make the Viper near unbeatable. Micro second shifts, never lift and very little rpm drop. Engines rpm wouldn't be an issue if the trans and rear end are geared for the sweet spot of the motor.

Happy New Year!!


George

The Viper's torque curve is so flat that I don't think you would see much of a difference when comparing a manual to a manual or a dual clutch to a dual clutch, as long as the number of gears was reasonably similar. The purpose of extra speeds is to keep a car with a peaky torque curve inside of it. It doesnt make much difference if a Viper is at 3500 or 5500, they output very similar torque numbers.
 

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Throw a dry sump on it and let the rpms go

Not quite that simple... raising the redline would also require a revision of the valvetrain, as well as a good look at the crankshaft main bearing size depending on how high you were looking to spin. I would also assume that the engine was fully built, as I would not trust OEM components at a much higher redline.

Also... making a reliable system that allows you to keep your A/C is easier said than done on the newer cars.
 

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On topic...

Its very difficult to justify a Supercharged Gen-4, as the Normally Aspirated Gen-4's approach the power levels of the basic Gen-3 blower cars. As well, the cost with regard to Engine Management on the Gen-4's is tough to swallow. If you are going to swallow a large EMS pill, it makes more sense to just bite the bullet and go TT. The EMS systems for Gen-4 can easily be more expensive then [Up to 2x over!] the Supercharger itself.
 

Coloviper

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It may be the same topped out HP levels as a blown GEN III, but it is a totally different power. The curve is different. While the GEN IV really peaks out and wakes up after 3500 RPM. It does not even feel as torquey as a geared GEN 1 under that RPM range.

Power is not power. How it gets to the road and when, totally changes the car and overall driving experience. If a GEN IV was awake down low and did not have the drive by wire throttle delays, it would be absolutely deadly, but it does have those issues and is therefore a different feeling.

An old solid lifter, non roller cammed mechanical fuel pumped old 60s V-8 feels totally different from a modern V-6 making the same HP. The top numbers just do not tell the whole story.
 

1fast400

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Not quite that simple... raising the redline would also require a revision of the valvetrain, as well as a good look at the crankshaft main bearing size depending on how high you were looking to spin. I would also assume that the engine was fully built, as I would not trust OEM components at a much higher redline.

Also... making a reliable system that allows you to keep your A/C is easier said than done on the newer cars.

I assumed it was implied that if someone was spending 10k+ on a dry sump system, they'd be doing it because the car is already built. I know UGR has a viper out in vegas with this setup.
 

Simms

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How many forced induction Gen IV's are out there? I know of 4 (UGR, RSI, Hennessey, STS) which are all TT.
 

Viper Specialty

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Power is not power. How it gets to the road and when, totally changes the car and overall driving experience. If a GEN IV was awake down low and did not have the drive by wire throttle delays, it would be absolutely deadly, but it does have those issues and is therefore a different feeling.

While I don't disagree with your general assessment, the Gen-4 "downfalls" are specifically caused BY the Venom Controller and the way it is programmed. When building an SC or a TT Gen-4, the VC would be replaced, allowing these issues to be addressed.

However, with regard to "power is not power" specifically- yes, it is. As long as the torque curve is wide enough to not fall out of the power band while accellerating through the gears, the cars will be the same. The torque measurements in an area of the rev range that isn't used for acceleration, is irrelevant. Apples to oranges overall, but worth noting.
 

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How many forced induction Gen IV's are out there? I know of 4 (UGR, RSI, Hennessey, STS) which are all TT.

*cough* FIVE *cough*

VS-1500TTvc
Coming Soon ;)



The VC doesn't have anything to do with people in the jungle. It has to do with Variable Camshafts ;)
 
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dipapa

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I personally didnt like the Paxton, it was making over 700rwhp on dyno and honestly it didnt feel as lively as my built motor now. The Paxton throttle response wasnt that good for some unknown reason however everything on motor was running real good from tuning, dyno, mechanical & electrical standpoint.

With the Paxton, I agree with the others in this thread commenting about the poor feel of the Paxton setup regardless of the high dyno numbers


From comments made earlier in this post, part may be due to rear gearing that made Paxton have a less than mediocre "seat of the pants" feel. I had 3.33 rears and car still didnt feel like 720rwhp and i had very aggresive timing map... Paxton car only felt fast when at WOT and for brief rpms going from 4500-6000 WOT. Part throttle sucked for a 700rwhp car, and like i said above everything mechanically & electronically was running good and if it wasnt, it sure couldnt be found. Everything with tuning, codes, A/F wideband & boost gauge sure looked good. Maybe it was the BBK TB holding it back, but paxton throttle response just felt lackluster... That BBK TB was the worst Viper mod ever!

With a S/C we have more hp, but we really only have more hp under boost, so lower rpms & part throttle dont count. Add this to the viper slower winding motor...so a little of all of that hp delays add up. I dont drive at WOT often, but thats just me.

Paxton performance also deterioted quickly as motor heat soak developed and it sure was noticeable on mildly hot days. A car with that must hp should be insane fast in any rpms...anywhere & anytime...no excuses.

With the paaxton you just really need to lay into the throttle allot to feel the power which is contrary to what my idea of 700rwhp should be.
 

Nine Ball

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I personally didnt like the Paxton, it was making over 700rwhp on dyno and honestly it didnt feel as lively as my built motor now. The Paxton throttle response wasnt that good ...

...paxton throttle response just felt lackluster...

With a S/C we have more hp, but we really only have more hp under boost, so lower rpms & part throttle dont count. Add this to the viper slower winding motor...so a little of all of that hp delays add up. I dont drive at WOT often, but thats just me.

With the paaxton you just really need to lay into the throttle allot to feel the power which is contrary to what my idea of 700rwhp should be.

I shortened your reply, but those are exactly my feelings on the kit too. Yes, the Paxton provides reliable (and big) hp gains on a stock Viper. But, you won't ever feel this extra power unless you are driving wide open throttle above 5K rpm. The low/midrange throttle response is b-o-r-i-n-g with this combo. There is definitely a lag response when you stab the throttle at anything below 4500 rpm. With roots/positive displacement type blowers, the throttle is VERY responsive and snappy. You can roast the tires at will. I can floor my Z06 at 3K rpm and it will burn the tires and take off like a rocket. That is far more enjoyable on a daily basis. You always feel the added power with a roots/pd blower.
 

repiv

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The main problem with getting a viper to be quick is the fact that he viper engine revs so much lower than everyone else, they keep going when we have to shift, lower gears and viola, we have to shift even more. If someone could get a viper engine to rev to 7K - problem solved, but with most of us shifting at 5400 = big difference

getting a viper to rev to 7K is doable, roller cam, jesel valvetrain, dry sump. i spin mine to 7,500. the cost of the parts/labor will exceed the cost of the supercharger.
 

Bobpantax

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My throttle response has been excellent. On a road course, I have had no problem pulling away from a Gen IV out of the corners. Shift point and technique have alot to do with perceived response. There is also the factor of engine and calibration variability. I have noticed that some Paxtonized Gen IIIs with similar calibrations produce different results. I have the DC blower tune and it produce 685 RWHP and the power under the curve is also somewhat better than some of the graphs I have seen here. I think that I just lucked out and got a good engine from CAAP. Or maybe it was because Herb H inspected my car on the line. Either way, I have been very pleased with the setup and I just hit 20,000 miles. As for spinning the tires, I can do that in first, second or third depending on the RPM level when I hit it. However, if I do spin the tires, I consider it the result of a failed driving technique. The car is just a car. It does what the driver makes it do within its engineered capabilities.
 

johnk

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Nine. Can you post your dynosheet? I ask because I want to compare your power distribution under the curve with mine. Also, as long as you are posting the Viper dyno results can you also post the Vette results so that we can compare the two. My guess is that the power between 2000 and 4500 is materially higher on the Vette than on the Viper.

One more question. I assume that you are not shifting the Viper out of fourth on the 60 to 140 runs but what gear are you in when you hit it at 60 MPH? I ask because you should have plenty of boost when you hit it at 60. Warning! Hitting it at 60 at 4200 RPM or so can get a little squirrely if the tires are not properly warmed up and there is any debris or wetness of any kind on the road. Snake bites can and do happen without much warning under these conditions. The Vette's nannytech would prevent same.


Can a '06 Paxton car be pulleyed to make max boost at ~4000rpm, then bleed it off and hold that limit ? or would blower heat be a problem? Mine is still climbing at 6000. Seems it would sure make more power under the curve.....
 

SquadX

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I personally didnt like the Paxton, it was making over 700rwhp on dyno and honestly it didnt feel as lively as my built motor now. The Paxton throttle response wasnt that good for some unknown reason however everything on motor was running real good from tuning, dyno, mechanical & electrical standpoint.

With the Paxton, I agree with the others in this thread commenting about the poor feel of the Paxton setup regardless of the high dyno numbers


From comments made earlier in this post, part may be due to rear gearing that made Paxton have a less than mediocre "seat of the pants" feel. I had 3.33 rears and car still didnt feel like 720rwhp and i had very aggresive timing map... Paxton car only felt fast when at WOT and for brief rpms going from 4500-6000 WOT. Part throttle sucked for a 700rwhp car, and like i said above everything mechanically & electronically was running good and if it wasnt, it sure couldnt be found. Everything with tuning, codes, A/F wideband & boost gauge sure looked good. Maybe it was the BBK TB holding it back, but paxton throttle response just felt lackluster... That BBK TB was the worst Viper mod ever!

With a S/C we have more hp, but we really only have more hp under boost, so lower rpms & part throttle dont count. Add this to the viper slower winding motor...so a little of all of that hp delays add up. I dont drive at WOT often, but thats just me.

Paxton performance also deterioted quickly as motor heat soak developed and it sure was noticeable on mildly hot days. A car with that must hp should be insane fast in any rpms...anywhere & anytime...no excuses.

With the paaxton you just really need to lay into the throttle allot to feel the power which is contrary to what my idea of 700rwhp should be.

Sounds similare to a stock viper at low/part throttle, or atleast mine felt like this. My paxton is responsive but I have 355 gears also. Not to mention the paxton takes power away (75-100hp to spin) at the lower rpms which my be the cause of the lackluster feel. Also I think it helps to have head work with FI these cars. I feel, outside of making more power, it helps to counteract the hp robbed by spinning the blower.

personally i like the way power comes on. Its not a twin screw like the roe and it makes power as designed in my opinion. Also alot of dyno numbers are not load bearing dyno numbers which make a difference.
 

jknappster

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Can a '06 Paxton car be pulleyed to make max boost at ~4000rpm, then bleed it off and hold that limit ? or would blower heat be a problem? Mine is still climbing at 6000. Seems it would sure make more power under the curve.....

This is the exact same question I have. Why not change the pulley? What about the newer NOVI 2500 system?
 

Twister

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I had the paxton on my nsx...well with little doubt the roots style nsx's were faster...

same applies here...its really simple...

you have one srt with a roots style bower makeing 200 rwhp over stock from 2500 rpms till 6000 rpms...then the other srt is a paxton makeing 250 rwhp over stock from 4000 till 6000 rpm...Despite the added 50 rwhp..on average across the power range the roots style is significantly faster...

we all have been here for a while...is it no secret that a stock 119 mph gts viper will add a basic roe supercharger and dyno 575 rwhp go to the strip and trap 130 mph????? take the 121 mph stock srt add the paxton for 640 rwhp and it will only trap the identical 130 mph....

to the viper and z06...me and a friend did this race 40 times...him in a 07 z06 with the exhaust fuse pulled so it was always open and 455 rwhp and 430 torque with the stock weight of 3180 pounds....me with kn intake and arrow roller rockers on the same dyno for 457 rwhp 491 torque and the stock 3380 pounds...his car was
 

Twister

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200 Pounds lighter but he weighed 60 pounds more than me...so only a 140 pound differance....

Starting in first gear at 20 mph i could put a length on him but then when i shifted to second he would put a length on me...then a second later he would shift and i would get almost even and then have to shift to third..here he would walk out 2 cars and then a second later when he shifted i would come back to about a car and a half back and stay like that till we shut down at say 140....When ever i shifted he just kept going...i know some say power is power...but it sure did seem like i was trumped by the 7k rpm in two very evenly matched cars
 

Vipuronr

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Paxton vs Roe, my understanding is that Sean's setup comes in earler, hence better setup for most Vipers...certainly TT would be the way to go if major power is the goal.

But, I like DC's setup...naturally aspirated and nice hp gain. Is that heads, cam, exhaust and tune or are there other/different pieces?
 

LS6 Molester

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The main problem with getting a viper to be quick is the fact that he viper engine revs so much lower than everyone else, they keep going when we have to shift, lower gears and viola, we have to shift even more. If someone could get a viper engine to rev to 7K - problem solved, but with most of us shifting at 5400 = big difference

my project 3/4 years ago was a high rev turbo motor. i got it started by getting a built destroked gtsr motor, as 2fast mentioned, with a dry sump. i dont have the build sheet in front of me, but kevin from exotic engine said i could turn it up to 9k. my goal at the time was the mile, finishing it in 4th. sad to say, that project never got finished and kevin ran off with my money :(
 

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