ARE YOU READY TO BUY ONE TODAY obviously you must be since you CONTINUE to bring this up.
Viper to be canceled and new Viper to come in 2012
- Thread starter The Great One
- Start date
Rollin4
Enthusiast
Bingo. The way Chrysler is going now with sales, I have to wonder if they will be around in 2012? If all holds true we have something to look forward to in 2012....rear engine 600hp+? Time will tellWith no NEW product scheduled for Chrysler, Dodge or Jeep until 2012, we will be lucky to still have the company in existence at that time.
Ignorance Is Bliss!!
If the price is right on an ACR, sure why not add another. At least I'm trying to do my part in keeping the snake going!!
Alexarz
Enthusiast
You keep going on and on about how much better the Gen 3,4 are over the GTS but I have both and you are dead wrong. The GTS has far better throttle response and low end power, responds much more to exhaust mods than the Gen 3, has much better outward visibility, less cabin heat and if you did a poll, far more people would tell you that they prefer the look of a GTS over the newer Vipers. In fact, I drove my GTS Viper and went to a Dodge dealer this week. They had a new Viper convertible in the showroom but everybody was remarking about how much better my GTS looked than the one in the showroom and several of them were customers not employees. I didn't need them to give me their opinion. The fact is, the new Viper looked like a schoolbus compared to my steel gray/silver striped GTS. Furthermore, the GTS does not look remotely like any other car.
Like I said, I own both generations so I am impartial about this issue but you have to be kidding yourself when you think that the new Vipers are superior in every way. It's simply not true.
Stock for stock, except for the subjective issue of body style and the issue of low end throttle response, the Gen III is far superior to the Gen II in performance at the strip, on the street or at a road course. Stock for stock, the drivetrain of the Gen IV produces superior performance to the drivetrain of the Gen III.
As for a Gen V, if there ever is one, it is my hope that it will represent an evolution of the Viper that is consistent with it being a streetable race car as opposed to a raceable street car which requires a skilled, thinking driver to drive it at the edge of its performance capabilities. I would like to see it weigh in at no more than 3200 pounds. I would like to see it offered in street, road course and drag strip versions. I would like to see an extensive list of options offered. And, it's design should have the same emotional impact illicited by the red GTS coupe running at speed on the roads in Hawaii. Remember that AD given to all of us on a DVD?
After the Hawaii AD, the marketing for the Viper crashed and burned. Chrysler and the Dodge division, for some idiotic reason I still do not understand - perhaps it involved some corporate infighting, abandoned the proper marketing of the Viper and expected its sales to continue unabated. Then they allowed such marketing foolishness as employee pricing for Walmart employees. At the time, I thought the person that made that decision was a deep cover mole for GM since the decsiion was so absurd. In my opinion the demise of the Viper was caused by an incompetent marketing effort which was followed by an absurd price incentive plan. Both worked together to hurt the image of the car, distort the expectations of buyers and sap what had been normal demand. Hopefully all the people that made those decisions have been fired. If they have not, the same mistakes will be made again. Cancer has a way of recurring.
As for a Gen V, if there ever is one, it is my hope that it will represent an evolution of the Viper that is consistent with it being a streetable race car as opposed to a raceable street car which requires a skilled, thinking driver to drive it at the edge of its performance capabilities. I would like to see it weigh in at no more than 3200 pounds. I would like to see it offered in street, road course and drag strip versions. I would like to see an extensive list of options offered. And, it's design should have the same emotional impact illicited by the red GTS coupe running at speed on the roads in Hawaii. Remember that AD given to all of us on a DVD?
After the Hawaii AD, the marketing for the Viper crashed and burned. Chrysler and the Dodge division, for some idiotic reason I still do not understand - perhaps it involved some corporate infighting, abandoned the proper marketing of the Viper and expected its sales to continue unabated. Then they allowed such marketing foolishness as employee pricing for Walmart employees. At the time, I thought the person that made that decision was a deep cover mole for GM since the decsiion was so absurd. In my opinion the demise of the Viper was caused by an incompetent marketing effort which was followed by an absurd price incentive plan. Both worked together to hurt the image of the car, distort the expectations of buyers and sap what had been normal demand. Hopefully all the people that made those decisions have been fired. If they have not, the same mistakes will be made again. Cancer has a way of recurring.
OPHITOX
Enthusiast
Well, I guess paddle shifters, some horses on the sides, and maybe a rear engine in the new 2012 viper? I am pessimistic, I think with the current administration, global warming wackos, building high performance, low passenger volume sports cars will decline. 2012 is a long way off for a new sports car. You knew it was going to happen, low production vehicles only work if you are Itailian.
Warfang
Enthusiast
What happened was the Germans bought Chrysler... I mean merger of equals.
I'm not too hopeful the Italians will do better. The Euros seem to have a lot of pride in their cars... and have no problems trashing ours. Daimler would build an MB and a Chrysler on the same platform with identical engines... then intentionally lower the HP rating on the Chrysler (Crossfire SRT6) by 10HP... just to maintain a lead for MB. How petty is that? Need I remind everyone of the "American Nothing" campaign... BY Daimler while it OWNED Chrysler?
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Funny that all the bad marketing moves you mention on top of pulling out of REAL racing, a stagnation in upping the performance, and a lack of a coupe... happened on Daimler's watch. And then... as soon as it was out of Daimler's hands... the Viper gets back on top. I wonder why...?
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Alexarz
Enthusiast
On a road course, perhaps the Gen 3's are faster and more so because of tires than anything else. On a drag strip, you are dead wrong. The fastest time for a stock GTS is faster than the fastest time for a Gen 3 and it is all related to the power under the curve. The GTS is far superior at low revs and builds into the powerband much better. Gen 3's are flat until about 3000 rpms. In addition, the Gen 3 does not respond to exhaust/header mods, while a GTS responds very well. A GTS with such mods beats a Gen 3 everywhere, from bottom to top, whether the Gen 3 has similar mods or not. Gen 4's make up for the lack of low end with significantly more power on top. Gen 3's don't and it is all in the heads. A set of Stryker heads puts either a Gen 2 or Gen 3 right where a Gen 4 is power wise.
You can say that appearance is subjective but I am guessing that at least 75% prefer the GTS over the newer Vipers. I have beaten C6Z06's with both Vipers but at this point my GTS is lightly modified.
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did someone say buhler is one of the largest viper dealers ? and they only sold "dozen+ 08 and 09 Vipers ".....thats pathetic
especially when bill pemberton said this in another thread...
i guess its a pretty huge spread from 1st place to 2nd place huh ?
especially when bill pemberton said this in another thread...
i guess its a pretty huge spread from 1st place to 2nd place huh ?
viperDoug
Enthusiast
I think Buhler sells less vipers than Woodhouse, Roanoake, Ringgold, and Tomball. So that would place them at 5th at best.
Slypopsracing
Viper Owner
Everything is relative. A few short months ago when Viper was being sold to a Hot Rod store in Calif. to now, Ralph, Pres of Dodge, Viper a Mopar product, talk of a gen V in any form, we now have what we could not have dreamed for then; let it unfold,and pray Ralph is as good as he is. Now back to argung which Generation is better...
Well I guess i'll add my 2c. Isn't the point of a new model to improve on the previous one?? I can certainly see how Viper enthusiasts like the GenII coupe body style. After all these years it is still a head turner BUT it is still subjective..beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Moving on, having driven all three gen extensively the difference between a GEN IV and a GEN II is a much wider gap than a GEN III to a GEN II. And it should be.
From every standpoint (performance, ride, handling, cornering,braking) the GEN IV is by far the most superior Viper to date. How can you argue that? Hasn't some forum members run these cars to a 10 sec ET stock?? Now ET's aren't everything but it is so much more compliant on the street also. Interior is improved. Won't even compare the brakes. And with awesome deals out there...a steal for the money. MY question is how come alot of Gen II owners have not taken the plunge to get their hands on the last DODGE Viper ever produced? At the end of the day, however, owning any Viper is a thrill!!
Plum, no one is suggesting that buhler ONLY sold 12 Vipers. The discussion had to do with the PLACEMENT of the Vipers and the fact that he had 12 in his showroom at one time. I am not privy to his total count of sold orders per year.
Geez! Everyone chill out!
YES, Woodhouse, Roanoke, Bill Luke, Buhler, and many others are awesome dealers, who support our website and our Viper community. Tator as well.
RoadiJeff
Viper Owner
Because until the design team does something about the "nice Vette" looks of post 2002 Vipers the newer ones have absolutely no appeal to me. And as far as a few hp difference, a Gen II can have a few bolt on mods added by a top tuner for less than $15k (I've already checked into it) that will far outperform ANY stock Viper ever made.
We should be happy we have four GENs to choose from. Each is unique and special in their own way. With all the cars to peg against a Viper, why fight about the GENs internally. I just don't get it.
Hope to own one of each in the future as each one has a special place in my heart, however my GEN III inferior/superior or not is my first Viper and that will never chance. Eternally special at that point.
GEN V, let's just hope we have one. 2012 would mean engineering needs to be taking place right now. If there is no engineering taking place right now, than no new GEN V Viper. Surely we can at least find out a straight answer to the engineering question without spilling the beans on anyone or devulging anything about the new model. Until then, I am very skeptical.
Hope to own one of each in the future as each one has a special place in my heart, however my GEN III inferior/superior or not is my first Viper and that will never chance. Eternally special at that point.
GEN V, let's just hope we have one. 2012 would mean engineering needs to be taking place right now. If there is no engineering taking place right now, than no new GEN V Viper. Surely we can at least find out a straight answer to the engineering question without spilling the beans on anyone or devulging anything about the new model. Until then, I am very skeptical.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
My problem with the latest and greatest are all the federal mandates. It is so bad I really don't see myself ever buying a new street sportscar ever again.
Chuck I agree with you 1000%. If it was still socially acceptable I would run my office with a pencil and black marble notebook. And this was a big concern before I bought the '09. All the electrical nanny's that go along with it. But it is such an amazing performing car right out of the box I bit the bullet and went for it. ZERO regrets. And the hood just looks down right nasty!!
Attachments
Hi Alex. Thank you for your response but your data is not correct when doing a stock to stock comparison of Gen II to Gen III. Please go to the link below and review the data for each generation. If you do not trust what is shown there, there are many other sites that contain the same data. The Gen III is faster 0 t0 60 and in the quarter mile. The Gen III can be supercharged with a Paxton kit in a far more facile manner than a Gen II. As to appearances, the Gen III and Gen IV Vipers, except for the hood, have the same appearance and that means six model years for the Gen III look versus eleven model years for the Gen I/Gen II look. In the case of the GTS, seven years. So of course there may be more Gen I/II Vipers out there absent the reduction for totalled Vipers. The worst part of the Gen I/IIs was the stock brakes. They are/were awful for anyone driving at the edge of the car's performance envelope. As for why people do not upgrade to a Gen III or Gen IV, I think in many cases it comes down to a matter of available funds in difficult economic times. However, some are probably not doing a proper economic analysis of the choice. Being out of warranty on an aging Viper is not a fun financial experience.
Dodge Viper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Alexarz
Enthusiast
BobPantax, I have a new '06 and my GTS is definitely faster. The '06's low end is so weak that it does not even feel like a performance car below 3000 rpms. I'm not sure about the average drivers but Furman's stock GTS time in the 1/4 mile is better than any stock Gen 3 time, including his own. It doesn't surprise me because I have both and there isn't any doubt in my mind which is faster accelerating. The GTS is far more responsive and pulls with authority right from idle, almost like a big block Chevy but not quite that strong. The Gen 3 and Gen 4's might as well be minivans below 3000 rpms. The GTS brakes are perfectly fine for normal street driving but I can see where you would want new generation brakes if racing.
You may have a weak Gen III. I think that both Gen II and Gen III are/were not the easiest cars to launch for drag strip purposes. And neither car has what I would call a quarter mile oriented transmission and differential based on my experience with 60s and 70s muscle cars and power shifting. Both transmissions were really meant for the road course more than the drag strip. The best launches I have seen with street tires have occurred by rolling into the gas in the case of both Gens. Other wise, it goes up in smoke or wheel hop can occur. The two Gens weigh about the same. One has 450 HP. The other 510 HP. One has 490 ft lbs of torque. The other has 535 foot lbs of torque. The math is the math. The diffference in the power band can be overcome by the utilization of a modified launch technique. But, someone has to have the drag racing skill set to do same. Since my main interest in the Viper is its use as a road racer - the use it was intended for - I certainly do not have that skill set but I can launch my Gen III just as well as I could launch my Gen II. I just use a somewhat different technique which takes into consideration the differences in the vehicles.
Alexarz
Enthusiast
My "weak" Gen 3 beat two C6Z06's. The midrange on up is healthy but the low end is lacking. The GTS is underrated at 450hp but puts down about 420rwhp stock, while the Gen 3 puts down about 445 rwhp. That is not a lot of difference in peak power and it does not compensate for the much stronger power of the GTS under the peak output. You are correct about the gearing not being suitable for drag racing. The Gen 3 and 4 vipers have spectacular interiors in my opinion and are wonderful Vipers. Where I disagree is when people say things that make it sound as though they make the GTS obsolete because of superiority in every way, when in fact, they are not.
VIPRRR
Enthusiast
Two points to consider.
1. If the viper is never made again so what, that puts my 08 SSG Coupe, 1 of 36 with no stripes more valuable everyday.
2. Since Fiat runs Dodge now and since this is a similiar economy to 1973, I would rather see no new Viper because of what I saw when Ford changed the Mustang from the 73 to 74 model. What a disaster that was.
1. If the viper is never made again so what, that puts my 08 SSG Coupe, 1 of 36 with no stripes more valuable everyday.
2. Since Fiat runs Dodge now and since this is a similiar economy to 1973, I would rather see no new Viper because of what I saw when Ford changed the Mustang from the 73 to 74 model. What a disaster that was.
You beat the Z06 because the guy driving the Vette could not drive .Drag time records for a Gen 2 Viper is 11.5 Drag time Record for a GEN 2 is 10.9 (NOT EVEN CLOSE )ARE YOU CLAIMING YOU CAN RUN BETTER THAN 10.9 IN A STOCK GEN 2.While were are on the subject DRAG TIME RECORD for a Gen 3 is also 11.5.
Alexarz
Enthusiast
LOL! I think you are spitting on yourself. Calm down, regroup and write that again so that it makes sense. I don't care what happens elsewhere. My '06 Viper was pulling that C6Z06 because of superior power. I trust what I experience more than what somebody else or a magazine does. I took down not 1 but two Z06's with the same '06 Viper.
P.S. What took you so long? You responded after the second mention of Z06's getting owned and not the first and due to my personal experiences, I would feel VERY confident lining up against any stock Z06.
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Alex a record is a record for a reason .Answer the direct question- are you claiming you can run quicker than 10.9 in the quarter mile.(If you can not you lose ).Plain and simple the Vetts quicker and the RECORD INDICATES its not even close.
And again the 1Bad express rolls on. Cannot decipher that all cars are not equal, all drivers are not equal and all environments are not equal. Also, I hope the rest of the world realises that there is more than 1 copy of each and located in many regions.
And shut the f up about beating some record for your location. None, absolutely none could ever be run in that time in my neck of the woods. That does not mean that there are no good drivers here. I will bet a lot of money that you, Jamie or any other east coaster cannot run a 10.9 here with any of the stock cars you pitch (all Chevies by the way). So get off your soap box and go to the Chevy web site where you belong.
And shut the f up about beating some record for your location. None, absolutely none could ever be run in that time in my neck of the woods. That does not mean that there are no good drivers here. I will bet a lot of money that you, Jamie or any other east coaster cannot run a 10.9 here with any of the stock cars you pitch (all Chevies by the way). So get off your soap box and go to the Chevy web site where you belong.
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