DIY Supercharger??

GO 4LO

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Hey, guys,
I'd heard someone mention on this board a couple weeks back that someone (Paxton or Vortech, I think) was working on a do-it-yourself supercharger for the Viper. Anyone have any further info on this? Thanks.
Chris
 

phiebert

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I'd like to see them do that too, and I'd like to get the Supercharger for my Durango as well. If they make one for the Viper, please let me know.
 

MadMaxx

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What year durango? I know the 4.7's have a new blower.. puts 60rwhp down for around 3500$.

You could always get an ATI and have some brackets machined
smile.gif


James
 

luc

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I am pretty familiar with Paxton blower since I am in Vintage Mustangs and I can tell you that their claim of 40% to 45% power increase doesn't stand up in the real world.
WITHOUT an air to water intercooler,the power increase is in the order of 20% to 25%.

On my factory supercharged (Eaton) 2001 Jaguar XJR that have a dual air to water intercooler, the rating go from 290HP to about 380/390HP.
That an increase of about 34%.

Remember that when you compress the incoming air, it also heat it up and consequently diminish it's density.

Luc.
2000 GTS
 

jamie furman

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I hate to mess your theory up but as an owner of many supercharged mustangs including low 9 sec R code I can tell you you are wrong, way wrong. My supercharged gts,5psi of boost,bone stock motor with crower roller tip rockers, and stock exhaust system on pump gas makes 570 rearwheel horsepower. I think if you do the math that is about 45% more than stock. My car is a 96 viper gts with the iron manifolds no less. And that is with no intercooler what so ever, I personally don't think with those low boost levels, 5psi you need an intercooler.
 

MadMaxx

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No one is arguing that you can't pull power out of a paxton, but as a mustang owner I would hope you could say that a ATI or Vortech is a better blower. Paxton is just now catching up w/ their silent gear drive and self contained oiling system.. but they still can't compete w/ ATI or vortech for the numbers.

also, if a GTS is rated at 450 fly, and w/ a 15% loss, that would put roughtly 390 RWHP...which we all know isn't true. Closer to a true 450 rear, even bone stock. So, if you pulled 570 RWHP out of a 450 rear motor, then thats a bit less than 45%

Of course, your limited on your boost w/o an intercooler, whether it's air2air or water. I'd be affraid running a V10 w/o an intercooler... they already run way to hot... blown any head gaskets yet?


interested to see how you pulled a 9sec 32v cobra motor. Streetable? I've only known 1 streetable 9 second car, and it was a GN w/ turbo lag from hell
 

Martin D

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Tony,

You are right on. MadMaxx is mistaken.

Jamie - what kind of traps are you hitting with 570 at the tires?? I seem to recall 135.....?

Regards,
 

MES

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Most gen 2's I have seen stock are 400 rwhp +-10 hp. Paxton rep told me they were using the NOVI2000 supercharger on the Viper. I think that's one of their better ones. I would almost bet you my Viper
laugh.gif
that if they do come out with the kit it WILL have an intercooler or at least one as a option.

Best case stock?
400 rwhp + 40% = 560 rwhp

Bolt on's with more realistic %?
450 rwhp + 35% = 600+ rwhp
BURNOUT.gif


Either way
embarass.gif
embarass.gif
embarass.gif
 

MES

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I posted that several weeks ago. Don't know any updates. You should call them, (888-9-paxton) the more people that request it the more likely they will see it through. The last time I called they seemed "optimistic" that it would be actually produced. Just speculating but I would guess it will run at 8 psi which would be 40-45% power increase maybe $6-$8K? not sure. But why they would make a kit for a Prowler first and not a Viper is beyond me. I guess they think the Viper comes with enough power from the factory.
http://www.paxtonauto.com/
 

jamie furman

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Tony you are right about 400 to 410 stock on the rear wheels, mine was about 409, my mph with et street slick is about 134, 135
and about 131 with my true street tires 19" pirelli pzero's.I didn't say it was a 32v motor in the mustang it is a 327ci 93 cobra R, my 2000 R is supercharged also, but I have not been able to run it yet but it is all stock but the blower, not like the radical 93R.
 
OP
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GO 4LO

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Sounds like the Paxton might be a decent alternative to one of the more expensive tuner packages. Does anyone know what brand of blower Doug Levin uses? Thanks.
Chris
 

MadMaxx

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My fault then
smile.gif
I thought that the advertized fly numbers were closer to actual RWHP... like what all the old muscle cars did back in the day
smile.gif
Yeah.. that hemi "only" has 425hp... suuuree... ;)

I'm an ATI advocate I guess... I had very very good results on the older P600B and a limited use of the D1 (HUGE!) blower housings.

More power to any company who does the R&D for a bolt-on kit! Like I said, paxton is just now catching up... I haven't followed them in a while so maybe they have come up with some new ideas.
 

Matt

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GO 4LO:
Sounds like the Paxton might be a decent alternative to one of the more expensive tuner packages. Does anyone know what brand of blower Doug Levin uses? Thanks.
Chris
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Last time I checked, Doug Levin gives you a choice of blowers. He uses the Paxton Novi2000 and the Vortech T-Trim. It all depends on what you are looking to accomplish. I believe Gerald has had both on his previous RT/10.

Matt
 

luc

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Some peoples will said that being a free market economy,as long that Viper' owners are willing to only get 50 cents to 60 cents worth for evey 1$ they spend, why should the tuners/sellers/retailers, change their price structure?

YES, most of the Viper's parts are WAY overpriced and we get robbed.
A good example is one of the regular parts supplier,there is a link to his web site in this board, "selling" a factory gear knob shifter for 1999 and up for $199,99.
Parts # is SG081X9-AA/21030006, and do you know what is the FULL retail price at a Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep dealer?

The answer is $ 113,00 !!!!!!!!.
And I only paid $81,36 through my friendly Jeep part manager.

The best tip I can give you is to shop around, NEVER said that you have a Viper and ask for the part with the part # only.

Alot of parts on the Viper are also used on other Chrysler car/truck/mini-vans and you will almost get a better price if they believe that it is for your mini-van, not your Viper.

Luc.
 

Matt

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BAKNBLK95RT:
No flame intended, but I would like to know how some of the Viper Tuners out there get there prices for supercharging a Viper. I use to have a 600+ horse power Mustang that had a Vortech S trim blower that was pumping out 14 pounds of boost. The blower by it self was only $3000 brand new. The car of course had tons of other mods but not that many for the blower alone. I think I have seen some prices on a super charger at around $17,000 installed for the Viper. Maybe some one can sheed some light on this subject for me. It was my understanding that the Viper fuel system etc... could handle around 8 pounds of booost with out to many other mods. Just asking why are they so pricy? Is it because people are trying to take advantage of Viper owners?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please search through the archives for other previous supercharger threads. This issue has been discussed many times. You CAN NOT compare a supercharger kit for a car with production numbers of roughly 1500/year to a kit for a mass produced car like a Camaro or Mustang, or even Corvette. If you spread out the R&D cost over the number of kits you will sell, the Viper kits are going to cost you ALOT more.

Matt
 

Gerald

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In some tuners defense...

BACKNBLACK, try and get the numbers some tuners are getting with blowers without blowing motors and see how much it will cost you. They key is RELIABLE horsepower... Proven and effective.


Gerald
 

MadMaxx

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R&D is expensive... but I don't think it justifies the cost.
I mean, what about the local guy who adapts twin turbo's to a 440? He did his own R&D..i'm sure he could have found a tuner to build him one at 15K but he did it on his own. Maybe thats a bad example..

A blower housing is a blower housing... it's just the pullies and line routes that make it a "kit". Find someone who is good w/ CAD, lay out the V10 and start doing calculations
smile.gif
Or... "mimic" the layout of some of the tuner's work...I mean, how many ways could you possibly route an intake tube or an intercooler? A good exhaust shop can bend you any shape imaginable... for less than you think. &lt;sniped&gt;
edit: Per and e-mail, yes the intercooler was pressure checked b a radiator shop, it's easy for them to do.


James
 

MadMaxx

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Playing devils advocate...
When you pay a tuner for HP, thats what your getting...
They have to build it, test it, dyno it, and stand behind their work. They'd probably have to eat the cost of a few motors during their "trial" runs as well. You could pull big numbers out of a blower, but without knowing the pitfalls that others have hit, you run the risk. I'd personaly love to see a viper bolt-on kit for under 8K.. it's do-able, and if someone ate the R&D costs to start, I think they would make their money back in the long run.
 

Gerald

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I think if it were that easy ppl would be building 8 psi to 10 psi viper motors with blowers already. There are quite a number of people on this board who have been to tuners long gone already that have thought like you did. Only to give their customers motors that were toast in a day or so.

Gerald
 

MES

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If it was that easy to make a kit, one of the Viper tuners would already have a DIT kit for sale. But its a little different if you cook a Mustang ($3K?) engine verses a Viper ($15K?) engine. If a DIY kit comes from Paxton I would fell safe about putting it on my car.
 

MadMaxx

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I thought Viper motors ran about 10g's?
Same rules apply when building and tuneing a hemi... deep pockets and lots of patience!
 

kverges

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Unless you have done some DIY blower installs YOURSELF, then you don't know how easy or difficult it might be on a Viper.

Now, that 14 psi boosted Mustang; what other mods did you have and how long did it live? I'll bet that either (1) it had low compression forged pistons and some type of charge cooling or (2) it was an unreliable terror with at least blown head gaskets.

I have done DIY blower installs on Mustangs and C4 and worked on several F-Body cars. The earlier 9.0:1 compression, forged piston Mustangs were born for supercharging and the bolt-on kit could comfortably run 11 psi boost on stock internals if tuned right. But it was more than a $3K kit; it required injectors, mods to the intake tract, bigger MAF, and improved fuel system. Then I also needed a programmable mod to the computer. So it was something like $5-6K for a reliable S/C setup that could run 11 psi boost.

The C4 was another matter. I wanted to run more boost, so the engine had to be rebuilt with forged, low compression pistons. The basic S/C kit was $5K. Then the fuel system had to be completely revamped, computer reprogrammed, the crank hub keyed (to avoid spinning the balancer on the crank snout), water injection added, and much more. Not counting the ported heads & intake, I guess the out of pocket expense was an easy $10K.

Now the Viper is an unknown quantity, but there are at least the following issues:

1. Balancer is not keyed and needs to be; not sure if the crank and balancer both need to be machined.

2. Fuel system "dead ends" at the manifold, so increasing fuel pressure is not an easy option to enrich fuel.

3. Timing retard is a challenge, since no ready PCM reprogramming solution exists.

4. Engine internals are high compression and no longer forged (early Gen I cars should be good with 9.0:1 forged pistons, but then there is the head gasket "issue" with these cars).

5. Mounting brackets and plumbing will have to be hand fabricated.

Add to this the fact that you need to recover your investment of developing a kit and 99% of Viper owners probably have neither the desire nor the competence to tackle the project. If I had a nickle for every crappy install I've seen on a Mustang or F-Body, I'd be a rich man.

Don't get me wrong; I'd love to DIY supercharge my car and won't do it unless I can do it myself. But any tuner who wants to make a good living doing supercharging kits is going to install them himself in order to supplement the paltry income that selling maybe 50 total kits offers. Is the price marked up to Viper standards? Sure. But Viper owners won't put up with all the fit, finish and reliability woes that a Mustang owner will.

In the end, the only DIY Viper install I forsee will involve starting with the bare compressor and doing it ALL yourself. Frankly, the physical mounting and plumbing issues are less than 20% of the battle to get it running right.

FWIW,
 

MadMaxx

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I ran nearly 15psi at one point on an F-body.
bottom end was 396 stroker kit on an LT4 block (LT1). Lunati crank, oliver rods and JE pistons. Compression was rated 9.5 from JE, but closer to 8.7 w/ the head work. Top end was an LT4 head/manifold combo. The manifold came from LPE and the heads from were sent off to be CNC'd. Cam was an LPE blower grind. Fuel system was setup as a paxton 300gph inline pump, SS line w/ 36lb/hr injectors. Had to run the FMU to keep up at WOT. blower housing was a modified P600B series ATI w/ an aluminum pully machined to overdrive the blower to 14.5psi. A little to unpredictable w/ that housing, so it was then steped down to 12psi using stock pully. Tranny was an McLeod aluminum fly and twin disc clutch, to a 1LE driveshaft and a strange 12bolt rear w/ ABS functional. 3.73 gears (broke 4.10).

Very functional car... extreamly docile in town, but you get into that boost and would howl like a banshee!
 

Matt

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BAKNBLK95RT:
Sorry folks I don't buy it, A blower is a blower the only difference between a Mustang and a Camero blower is the hook up braketing pluming and install location.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do a some research on McLure Motorsports. They used to think the same thing as you. A blower install is a blower install. There have been others. Hopefully there won't be any more.

There is a reason, inspite of the prices, that tuners such as Doug Levin are still around and are successful. It is not a trivial operation, and the braketry and plumbing is not the only difference.

Might I suggest sending Doug a direct e-mail. I'm sure he can provide you with endless amounts of information to help you out.

Matt
 

Gerald

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BKNBLK,

By all means, make your own.. I"m interested to see how you fair... Would also love to know the final cost and HP..

Keep us updated if you do decide to jump into it..

Gerald
 

MadMaxx

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&lt;sniped&gt; Read the post wrong... nevermind.



<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by MadMaxx on 08-15-2001 at 09:12 PM</font>
 

MadMaxx

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I've been thinking about this all night...

Here are some of the major issues I think would need to be adressed:

Crank stress - I don't know if this would be a problem or not

Fuel system - I would think an FMU would need to be added to keep the system from running lean durring full boost (from what I've read happens alot). Using a FMU from an ATI kit would probably work just fine, it's all vac operated. What is the GPH rating of a vipers fuel pump? I'm sure an in-line pump would be needed. What about injector lb ratings?

Heat - A viper's engine bay is already very hot, the radiant heat from the blower won't help much. This could probably be overcome by a heat shield around housing and possibly better cooling system?

Location - Because of it's tight space, an intercooler would have to be a thin sheet-metal designed version. Possibly sit right above the two forward frame rail extentions (to the rad suport)? Air flow would be an issue...

Routing - Possibly from the blower back towards the radiator and up through the stock air box location?

I have no car to base this on, only tech drawings and several scale models
smile.gif


If the boost levels were kept low, say 6-7psi and the fuel system stayed well into the 14.7 - Rich range, then there shouldn't be a problem... What software (if any) is available for editing the ECU?

James
 

kverges

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BKBLK or whatever, contact me. I am in Dallas and have a leg up on DIY S/C stuff. How long did the Mustang live as a daily driver? I daily drive a S/C car for about 3 yrs now with 13,000 miles.

FMU WILL NOT work, at least not easily. There is no return line from the manifold to the tank and no way to add an adjustable fuel pressure regulator (which is all a FMU is) without some big plumbing changes. FMU is crude in any event, as fuel flow goes up with the square root of fuel pressure and all FMUs of which I am aware are linear.

Gen I engine controllers are a bear. There are actually TWO controllers, a master and slave, I think because at the time Chrysler could at most control 8 cylinders, so two PCMs had to be "piggybacked" in order to have sufficient injector and coil pack drivers. The PCMs are also "potted" so there is no way to swap the chip, even if you could program it.

This is a big project. It is doable, and I would be very interested, but unless YOU, PERSONALLY have turned ALL the wrenches on a S/C project that had custom requirements other than bolting on a low-boost kit, I can promise you that you have no idea the effort.

I have accumulated many parts (such as misc of the old McClure brackets and plumbing, extra intake to plumb for injectors and many ideas to provide fuel enrichment and timing control) and would be willing to help tackle this project.

But I promise you it won't be easy and is not worth the time for 5 psi boost.
 

MadMaxx

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There more I get into the vipers internals, the more respect I have for some of the tuners
smile.gif

These cars seem to be a nightmare for R&D...

Oh well, atleast nitrous is a nearly painless hp kick
smile.gif


Qustion: Is the ECU for the dodge V10 truck the same as the viper w/ just timing changes?
 

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