Exhaust questions...and heads.

GTS Bruce

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What is so special about the Corsa.Of course it is a quality fit and finish but what is special is the sound.More exotic than the rest.Second the performance heads cool better and have more metal in them.Won't make any difference in a 11 second wonder but will hold up under the continuos stress of road racing. Bruce
 

JonB

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MoPar Performance Heads are VAPORWARE....not Viper ware.
As in sold out-discontinued.

There are several other choices: BTR / APEX / PartsRack / Search. Stock heads can be pushed pretty far, with other port-matching work and honing

Corsa, as noted.

HEAT = stainless. Alumanized steel = up to 300-degrees cooler.
Coat either = corresponding temp drop.

Tri-Y = cooler than long-tube, and easier install, but MANY report Check-lite problems on 01-02 B+B models.

Belangers...coolest, easiest, Better street performance. Guaranteed. D-port matching HELPS the S/C plans as well. No round holes over squared off holes..... (Ben?)
 

Sean Roe

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Jon B,

Please show us published engineering data showing the heat transfer differences between stainless steel and mild steel (aluminized and bare) to support your claim. Your infared pyrometer test, mentioned in another post, does not hold water. The emissivities of bare metals do not give accurate results. Read the directions that came with your pyrometer as it has detailed information. The only reason bare steel is aluminized is to reduce oxidation (so the exhaust pipe won't rust out too fast).


DKM,
To answer your questions, we, and several others have been using the B&B headers (1&5/8" and 1&3/4"). They work great. They've been making Viper headers a long time and were in fact the manufacturer that Hennesey used.
In regard to the Corsa, the main difference between it and a Borla (for example) is the muffler configuration and crossover. The Borla uses a packed muffler (2), where the Corsa uses a chamber style muffler (4). The Corsa has a crossover just before the two rear mufflers, which balances out the exhaust pulses, giving you a quieter system at low RPM cruising. As a test, we put a crossover in the same spot on our Borla cat-back and got the same result (quiet highway cruising). All the Viper cat-backs available are stainless steel and will not rust, ever, (well, except one).

Sean

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Sean Roe on 08-27-2002 at 07:04 AM</font>
 

MadMaxx

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I thought stainless was more addapt and running hot all the time, hence using it in turbo applications (where mild would degrade too fast).

Makes sense...

MM
 

fast?

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ya that thing hits hard!after a ride in it i'm sorry to say that you will be modifying your car immediately. a hyabusa up at red rock raced me a couple weeks ago and he couldn't pull away and i was inching up on him after our launch.
 

racetech

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DKM:
Hmm...interesting. I followed your logic pretty well. The issue at hand would WHO on this list is the guru as far as heads go?? You said it yourself that a good set of heads is worth a good amount of HP gains. Is there anybody on this list you'd trust??

Or should I just do: Cam, bigger valves, roller rockers, headers, exhaust, and all the small bolt on?? Like I said before I really want around 525rwhp with matching torque and when I send this little ******* off to get supercharged I want it around 800rwhp with matching torque.

Am I asking for too much here?? Am I unrealistic about what I want??

dave

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

With supercharging, the head port issue becomes a little less relevent--it'll stuff more into the engine with or without a port that has dead areas.

My buddy (can't reveal the name right now) who does the head work for...let's just say several of the biggest names you can think of in NASCAR and the NHRA...he said he'd do a set for me, but didn't want any other Viper customers calling him (he's way too busy for more work).

If I said the name, nobody in here would recognize it, nor would they know the other gentleman's name that I'd trust with my heads. As I said, these folks only deal with the top-tier pros--those who have high 6-figure contracts.

However, I recently had another discussion with him about this issue. I explained that Viper owners will pay very well for the best work. He's now reconsidering--thinking of using my set for R&D and making a 5-axis CNC program for Viper heads. Give me time--I'm working on him. Hard.

I will say this--even if I wind up with his worst work, they'll still reorganize the thinking of those who race & modify these cars. Try to imagine a 358 CID small block Chev. naturally aspirated pro-stock truck engine that pumps out 965 hp. @ 10,000 rpm's on two carburetors and racing gasoline. And that was a pushrod engine with ports into which you can barely fit three fingers.

So...my goal is to have a 150-200 hp gain from 5000-6500 rpms through careful head mods, camshaft, exhaust, & fuel system work. I don't want the noise of a supercharger and want to fill up at the local Amoco station. I'll keep you posted, but my wife made one rule...I have to pay it off first before I tear it apart. Give me about 6 months!

RC
 

GONABITE

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DKM,

I have the B&B setup 1'3/4 headers with 3 in. exhaust, car is pretty quiet while a cruising speeds but under throttle WOW awesome, even at idle you can really hear the cam go lumpty lump. With that setup and ROES' VEC1 I dynoed 460 RWHP and 512lb. tq. you add heads such as BTR' guarenteed 45 RWHP and a cam you will easily see 525 hp. Good luck on your mission.

And the theory on a 300 degree cooler exhaust for none stainless throw that right out the window.
 

racetech

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DKM:
...Or would the stocker heads be nasty enough with a nice port and polish??
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, boy...well...here goes. I have to do this--a moral obligation even if it may step on a toe or two. First, you should be more particular about who ports your heads than you would over who performs brain surgery on you. You probably think I'm exaggerating, but I'm not.

Legendary Bill Jenkins wrote it in his book about racing engines 20 years ago, and it's still true today--that the difference between one engine builder's short block and that of another may only be 10 or 20 horsepower, but a great set of cylinder heads can be worth 150 hp or more.

I know of only two people in the country that I'd allow to touch my heads as far as total port profiling, and they don't even deal with anyone (other than friends) who aren't top-tier professional racers.

So much damage can be done by people with good intentions when it comes to cylinder head port work. Assuming you're going to run something around .600" to .650" valve lift, they'll turn your heads into door stops if they open up the critical venturi area (about 1/4" above the valve seat) to anything more than 90% of the valve OD. 88-89% is a LOT safer. If they exceed that, the air/fuel mixture slams into the back of the valve and becomes turbulent. Valve seat widths & angles are equally important.

Have your heads extrusion honed only if you plan on running a thick slurry of abraisive material thru them at low velocity. Otherwise, that procedure is likely to destroy the flow characteristics of your heads. If they want to polish your intake ports, thank them kindly for their time and take your heads with you before they get too close to them. Polishing intake ports encourages fuel separation and may even increase drag (small grooves or scratches perpendicular to the flow path create vortices that act as "roller bearings").

Many head porters can perform their work and show you flow rate increases, but they won't show you a map of dead areas nor will they show you that port's ability to maintain high velocity and laminar flow. Their heads will often even cause the horsepower of the engine to rise slightly, but in a power band that's too narrow to be useful.

This is why so many people find more RWP in their car after mods, then find that the car is the same or ever slower on the track. One horsepower number is meaningless. The only thing that really matters is the average horsepower over the rpm range that the engine sees at each gear change (area under the curve).

If this has scared you a little, that's a good thing--heads are very expensive and easily ruined. This work is not like changing cams or exhaust systems.

What can the average head porter do that won't destroy your heads? Simple things like port matching (the farther you get from the valve seat, the less important things become) and bowl blending usually help a little. Beyond that, leave your heads alone.

RC
 

fast?

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hey DKM, if you want to see what the B&B 1 3/4 headers and corsa look like and how it sounds give me a call since i'm in vegas too. i have a few mods in my car so you can see for yourself before you purchase anything. give me a call and we'll go for a cruz. Trent (702)400-4279
 

GONABITE

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DKM,

Yes my complete exhaust is B&B, was very easy to install fit and finish is wonderful! Power increase was also definetely noticeble. Have fun.
 

joe117

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I wonder why DC would waste all that free performance by selling all their Vipers with heads that could be ported by an expert and made to yield 150 more horsepower. I don't mean that they should port their own heads. I mean they should make the casting so the ports work properly in the first place. I can see why they might not go to the trouble to design max performance into their other, mass production, engines. But think about how easy it would be to design and cast the head with the proper porting compared to the task of getting the power out of a head that is already made. If there is a guy who can get lots of extra power out of a stock viper head, and I'm sure there are such people, why wouldn't a multi billion dollar company, interested in performance, not have some smart guy to do the job right in the first place?
 

GTS-R 001

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DKM

I too have a complete B&B 1 3/4 exhaust and it is great. I ceramic coated and polished the headers and they run about half as hot as the stock system. This system sounds great and produces incredible power, my last dyno run produced 516rwtq with only other mods being tubes and filters and a VEC1 from ROE RACING.
As for heads, it is nice that racetech knows some great guys that don't work on viper heads but from what I've seen there are many competent viper tuners who do great head work. After much research I went with Greg Good at TNT as he gets great results and knows what he is doing when it comes to viper heads. My heads are to be completed in the next week and Greg is making them to complement the ROE Supercharger that I have coming in in 3 weeks.
Do yourself a favor and call Greg @ TNT.
 

GTS-R 001

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DKM,
When you talk to greg get his email address from him as I find it is the best way to communicate with him.
As for Sean, great guy, his products work and he'll only sell you what you need.

Steve
 

TOOOFST

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I enjoy the semi-slow stock drivability as designed 95% of the time.From time to time i'll go 10sec to keep smucks honest.People are amazed staring at the NOS system.Cost to go 10sec.(solid 650rwhp)$5000.TOOFAST NOS,TOOFAST exhaust combo,VEC1.
 

joe117

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I didn't say that DC should port the heads and intake by hand or by CNC machine. I asked why they would design the head for less than optimum flow. Why would it be possible to improve the flow with porting? They were smart enough to design the engine. Don't tell me that they are too dull to know about flow. If the hp gain would come at the expense of street drivability, then we have the answer. That would mean that anyone with a big hp gain from head, intake and cam, would be experiencing poor street drivability. Is that the case? Even with 488 cubic inches?
It wouldn't cost much, compared to all the R&D that goes into an engine design, to make the intake and exhaust as good as they could be right from the start.
Why wouldn't the ports match the headers right from the start? Don't tell me the tolerances of manufacturing are so poor that they can't get it right.
Why would the stock headers not be very good to start with? Did DC say, let's just stick some old pipes on there?
It seems like all of this could have been done about as well as possible with very little extra cost when it was being designed.
If we were talking about a mini van engine I could see why they wouldn't be interested in great flow. These cars are designed for performance. Why leave all that power on the designers drawing board?
 
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Joe, to find out why you would have to call up the engineers at Daimler/Chrysler and ask them yourself. I've been shaking my head and wondering the same thing for a long time. I wish that everyones castings, not just Chryslers, were better. The factories could definitely put a little more material in the right places and end up with a head that would have more flow potential and better casting integrity.

I'm hoping that the Gen 3 head is better than the Gen 2. There are water jackets in some very crazy places on the Gen 2's that limit what a head porter can do. There is no excuse for this. It would be completely avoidable if they got some decent commercial head porters involved in the port design.

I think there are several reasons for head castings not being better. The main one is lack of precision casting abilities. This is industry wide. If a foundry tried to cast a fully ported intake or exhaust runner some would end up being off center and you would have a problem with the shelf under the valve seat being off center. Not to mention the all important venturi under the valve seat being off center, killing flow. Same thing with the chambers. If they tried to make the chambers match the bore some heads would inevitably get out with some core shift and there would be problems with head gasket sealing. I've seen this happen before. There is a very popular small block Ford head that has chambers that are cast to size. I have had to include verifying head gasket seal by laying a head gasket on the deck of the head to my checklist when working on these. I have had to weld and re-surface a bunch of them too because the bead of the head gasket hung out into the chamber.

You would not believe how much core shift a cylinder head can have. I have seen some heads, not Chryslers, that had port walls that were only .050" thick in the valve pocket and fell through as soon as they were touched with a grinder. No warranty on that head. Had to get another casting. It can be very difficult to diagnose. Most of the time you don't realize a head has thin port walls due to core shift until it is too late. Unfortunately there is not (as far as I know)a reliable port wall thickness checker, AKA a sonic checker, generally available to us to check heads with. This would help with picking a good set of cores to port. It is easy to sonic check the cylinder bores in a block, but not a head due to the uneven radii involved with port walls that make calibrating the sonic checker to the head impossible.

I also think that the factory doesn't want the associated liability and headaches of breaking through to the water jacket because the head was thin somewhere it shouldn't have been. That's probably why they don't port heads. Their position is that the car is fast enough from them and head guys shouldn't be fooling with their port designs.

I suspect yet another reason for non-flowing ports is that there are not any really good head porters there at the factories designing the ports. This is not a slam on factory engineers if there are any reading. What I say in private in my shop is another story though.
supergrin.gif


Another reason might be that they just don't really care all that much. Who knows. In the meantime we continue to struggle with it. If only Brodix would come out with a Viper head.
 

joe117

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Brodix is a good example of what I'm talking about. They can design a head for a SB Ford or Chevy that will greatly improve flow and thus horsepower. They can also sell it at a very reasonable price. I believe these aftermarket heads don't have much if any downside in a large displacement performance car. They must have figured out how to deal with core shift or they designed the improved ports is a way that accounts for core shift. I suspect that all they do is use a little quality control in their foundry. The Viper heads are probably made in smaller quantities than Brodix heads. A little QC wouldn't seem hard to do. With the small number of Vipers and the still smaller number of Viper owners interested in mods, I don't think we will be seeing any aftermarket Viper heads.
As for DC not having any porting experts on the job when the heads were designed, I think there must be a big difference between the knowledge required to decide how to modify an existing head, compared to the knowledge required to design it properly to start with. Like you said, a great head porter needs to know how far he can go to get close to what he wants. A flow engineer working in the design phase would need only design for what he wants in the first place.
I guess the most likely answer is, again as you said, that they decided it was good enough.
 

GTS Dean

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GregGood/TNT:

Unfortunately there is not (as far as I know)a reliable port wall thickness checker, AKA a sonic checker, generally available to us to check heads with. This would help with picking a good set of cores to port. It is easy to sonic check the cylinder bores in a block, but not a head due to the uneven radii involved with port walls that make calibrating the sonic checker to the head impossible.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you want to be ahead of the pack - think nuclear.
 

Tom Welch

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This topic is as old as the v-8 engine itself.

Take a look at the small block chevy castings through the years as an example, even though the factory continued to improve them, there were lots of further developments through the aftermarket. Now you can pick up a Jegs catalog and order from a plethra of choices of aluminum and cast chevy heads.

I believe that the factory knows very well what it takes to get maximum flow out of a given design but they are regulated by the actions of our elected officials and the offices that they occupy. Why would the factory redesign the viper engine for the 03 just to get 50 more BHP when a better exhaust system and intake does the job on current gen II engines? A thin line is drawn between corporate sales(keeping up with the Jones's)emissions standards, and cafe requirements.

To answer Joe, just pull out your wallet and join the rest of us who have been seeking more power for the last 20 years. There are plenty of choices for good flowing viper heads. I recommend a decent cam while you are at it.

Tom

P.S. the quickest and fastest cars on the planet(top fuelers) all rely on an engine design that is over 30 years old..the 426 Hemi. A stock one makes 425 BHP while a top fueler KB aluminum hemi makes 6,000 BHP. Thank god for the efforts of backyard racers and the aftermarket.
 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by joe117:
As for DC not having any porting experts on the job when the heads were designed, I think there must be a big difference between the knowledge required to decide how to modify an existing head, compared to the knowledge required to design it properly to start with. Like you said, a great head porter needs to know how far he can go to get close to what he wants. A flow engineer working in the design phase would need only design for what he wants in the first place.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the person designing the cylinder head MUST know what the end product should be like in order to properly design a port. If a person doesn't know how to port a 300 cfm Viper head how can he design one?
 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Welch:

I believe that the factory knows very well what it takes to get maximum flow out of a given design but they are regulated by the actions of our elected officials and the offices that they occupy.

P.S. the quickest and fastest cars on the planet(top fuelers) all rely on an engine design that is over 30 years old..the 426 Hemi. A stock one makes 425 BHP while a top fueler KB aluminum hemi makes 6,000 BHP. Thank god for the efforts of backyard racers and the aftermarket.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow. What a conspiracy theory. Big brother is controlling our port designs now? HMMMMM...let's see...where DID I put that tin foil hat? Could the reason for the black helicopter flying over my shop be due to the gov's interest in my port designs? All this time I though my flow bench was just sucking it into the airspace over my shop.
supergrin.gif
(just kidding around)

I really don't think the factories know how to make the best head. Far be it from me to second guess an engineer but it's apparent in their product. I just call it like I see it, kind of like reporting the news. Yes, factories have emissions standards that have to be met, but that can be done without giving up flow. I have yet to see or hear from a reliable source of emissions on a vehicle going up appreciably after the heads were ported. As a matter of fact there are things you can do to a cylinder head that increase flow AND improves mixture quality. Improved flow and mixture quality can go hand in hand. This was great news when I figured it out. Head porters, engine builders, and evidently engineers designing cylinder heads are brought up thinking that we have to sacrifice flow volume to get mixture quality. This is an old myth that needs to die. I used to think the same thing. It wasn't until I built a wet flow fixture for my flow bench that I began to understand how fuel moves in a chamber and what aspects of head design had the most affect on it(wet flow).


Some factories are starting to get the picture. I'm increasingly seeing better flowing heads, wet and dry flow, come on factory vehicles. I hope the Gen 3 head is better than the Gen 2. It needed some work. The Gen 2 head has water jackets in some places it doesn't need them and the intake valve could benefit from being unshrouded a little more.

Tom, your analogy of the stock hemi versus a Top Fuel engine is about as apples & oranges as I could imagine. But it does serve to show that the factory doesn't know how to make the best cylinder heads. The two are completely different. You won't find one Top Fuel engine (of any importance) that has heads from the factory. All of the heads for fuelers (that run) come from aftermarket sources.
 

Tom Welch

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GReg,

I disagree with your analogy. Ever since the beginning of the performance era in the late 50's the factories have been doing exactly what they are doing today. They have the knowhow of what it takes to make these engines perform better but are continuing to manipulate the buying public by making cars alittle more powerful as time goes on. Please don't act blind to this fact. Take the Z-06 as a quick example, it keeps getting more powerful with the same displacment engine.

SALES, SALES, SALES is what drives the OEM's. Anyone can pick up a "factory authorized" performance catalog from their prospective dealer and purchase all kinds of hp enhancing items that could have been included when the engine was factory manufactured(another method of SALES)

About the Hemi, I also disagree, it is not apples and oranges, the NHRA limits a Hemi to 500 CID and the KB blocks can be used to build a 426 CID engine and it can be bolted to any chrysler 727 automatic transmission(I have 2 KB blocks at my shop, Stage VII that flow water and even have engine mount lugs on them in factory locations). Heck, even stock heads, exhaust and intake manifolds will bolt onto a KB aluminum hemi block. This analogy is no different than an individual taking his viper engine and stroking and supercharging it. The difference is in the technology, time and market desire for parts. Most engines will never see the potential of the Hemi and I believe that the Viper engine is one of them.
 
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Well, it appears that we agree that the factory doesn't give us the best parts out there. You say it's a marketing ploy, I say it's either a lack of interest or knowledge. Whatever, the bottom line that the aftermarket can do better than factory stuff.

The topic is about heads. I think you should re-read my last post. I don't really care about the interchangability of the blocks. The heads on a factory hemi and a current top fueler are completely different. The only thing they have in common is that they are both "hemi" type heads. That's where the similarities end. The valve dimensions are different, as are the valve angles, and the size of the chamber. The factory is not hindered by emissions laws on aftermarket parts and therefore can pull out all of the stops. They did, and the best they had was not good enough. It took "other" people(aftermarket), some of whom are just "hands on" types, not engineers, to generate something better. And boy did they.

Edit: Tom, are you trying to say that Chevrolet had the technology to produce the LS1 back in the 50's? I sure hope not. Because that is NOT true.


2nd edit: Tom, do you think the factories are also holding back on the race teams they sponsor like in Winston Cup? If what you claim about the factories is true and they are such a plethora of knowledge then why do the race teams port their own heads? Because the race teams are the experts, that's why.


<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by GregGood/TNT on 09-01-2002 at 07:45 PM</font>
 

racetech

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Well, I knew I'd open up a can of worms if I get into the realm of cylinder head technology. The main problem is, you couldn't describe all the important factors in a 500 page book, let alone in a short post in this forum. I'll try to cut to the chase on several issues...with uncertainty if this will just muck it up even more. But, here goes.

1. No, normally you can't make a single change to the heads or any other system on a naturally aspirated streetable Viper engine that would result in 150 hp. You certainly could on the heads that are about to go on a Pro Stock drag racing engine.

That's why I stated that my plan was to add about 150 by combining a different camshaft, exhaust system, head work, and fuel system mods. I would expect to see 30-50 from the head mods alone, but the most critical aspect of engine design is getting all the parts to work together. Often, people say "this cam makes hp" or "that carb makes hp". Both are inherently false statements. The only true source of energy is the fuel--the rest of it is how well it's mixed, how much gets in, and other factors.

2. There is a lot of truth to the fact that the manufacturer must balance cost against power--this has always been the case. This is why there isn't a stock cylinder head in the world that's already "optimal". I put that in quotation marks because it also depends on the environment. Want to lose about 100 hp in a hurry by bolting on a piece that supposedly "adds power"? Put on a Pro Stock style tunnel ram with two 1320 cfm carbs on your engine and watch it lose about 100 hp...at least until the engine's twisting above 7000 rpm's. I'd stand back if you zing that V-10 up to 7 grand. In theory, there should be a different port design in place every time you make any induction system modification.

So...the manufactures usually cut the all-imporant venturi & bowl areas with machine tools...they know it's not right, so they usually leave some extra "meat" there for the head porter--usually VERY little. But thank goodness they at least leave some!

Another thing that's very misunderstood--the OEM engineers often don't have a clue about what to do as far as maximizing the performance from an engine they develop. This is primarily because they must reach a goal within the constraints of budget and production costs. Furthermore, cylinder head technology does NOT flow from the engineer down to the racers. It goes exactly the other direction. That's why a guy like Bill Jenkins was paid by Chevrolet for years...so he could explain to the people who designed the engines what they should to to make them optimal for racing.

Then there's a matter of a poor design becoming too established to get rid of it...kind of the way the Beta video format was never able to displace VHS, despite being vastly superior. Chevrolet is still stuck with those huge combustion chambers on the Big Block Chevies (small chambers are better...PERIOD!). But...if someone produced a small (less than 70 cc) BBC head, there wouldn't be pistons around to fit it.

Don't believe the small combustion chamber thing? Pull the head off of any of the "Hemis" running in the NHRA Pro Stock category and you'll find heart-shaped combustion chambers between 47-49 cc's and nearly flat-top pistons. Now, pull the head off of any of the GM engines running in the NHRA Pro Stock category and you'll find heart-shaped combustion chambers between 47-49 cc's and nearly flat-top pistons.

If you don't know...47 cc's is FAR smaller than even any stock Small Block Chev. chamber--they're around 65...and these things are on 500 cubic inch V8's! Smaller is far better (unless you're running Top Fuel and have to put about a cup of fuel in there), but we're stuck with some things...unless you have an unlimited budget. The NHRA Pro Stock racers start with aluminum castings that are basically chunks of solid aluminum (they weigh over 80 lbs. each before machining, about 35 lbs. after).

I stand by what I said before. Unless you have access to a truly elite head porter, you'll be better off having them do minimal mods to the heads. Fortunately, the farther you get from the valve seat, the less things matter, so a lot of questionable work doesn't really show up as lost performance...and it makes the heads look really pretty! Porters know they're selling the heads to people, not to the engines...

Hope this helps!

RC
 

HP

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RC, I'll beat Greg to his response, because I already know his
take on your small chamber volume theory. There are advantages,
like you stated, but the disadvantages are valve shrouding &
limits on valve size and angles(which restrict flow).
 

racetech

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HP:
RC, I'll beat Greg to his response, because I already know his
take on your small chamber volume theory. There are advantages,
like you stated, but the disadvantages are valve shrouding &
limits on valve size and angles(which restrict flow).


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I promise...last reply on this subject from me! First, this is not theory, but well in place in NASCAR and the NHRA...and small chambers unshroud the valves--if the valves are located properly. And, flame propogation is vastly improved...so they breathe better and make better use of the fuel/air mix.

RC
 

HP

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Ok, since Gregg has gone to bed, I'll reply for him.
Small chambers will give you high compression without having
to go to pop-up pistons, and as far a flame propagation, that's
good. A flat top piston does not hinder flame travel, like
a pop-up does. Like stated earlier, small chamber size does
have advantages, but there is some minuses that can't be overlooked. Take a tennis ball cut it in half, and a softball
and cut it in half. Now see how big you can draw in the valve
seats on each. Then look at the inevitable shrouding, around
the valve seats on the tennis ball. It's simple, larger surface area of the head chamber, gives you the possibility of
larger, and better placed valves. Its like comparing the
full hemi open head chamber, with the semi-hemi closed chamber.
The advantages of the closed chamber are relevant only up to
a certain point. Large displacement cylinders are less reliant
on pop-up pistons for compression, and even with forced induction, heads still need to flow in terms of exhaust, that's some of the reasons Sir Hiss had to go
to a V-8, larger bore, better flow heads.
Now, Greg may come in behind me and chew me up, but that's my take on it.
 

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