Add T&D's and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

[monnieh]

Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

I just dyno'd yesterday and had a horrible experience. I had dyno'd before my T&D's at 422 and 465. I dyno'd yesterday at like 405. I just ran the track the night before and ran my best time ever at 12.26 at 117.5.

The first dyno was with with a Mopar ECU, no cats, no rear muffler, smooth tubes K&N's (ACR factory).

The one yesterday was with chrome tubes, no filters (pulled RIGHT before the dyno) and T&D's.

What the heck happend? The car was running rich as a pig yesterday. Did pulling the filters right before the run hose me?

I left the negative cable off last night for about an hour. But still was not running very strong today.

How many starts does it take to reset the computer? Can I run a Vec1 with a Mopar ECU?

HELP!!!

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

I dont want to sound like an expert, but I have dyno'ed my car 4 times. Each time it was to check a NEW MOD. But the ONE thing I did EVERY time, was to mirror the previous conditions. You changed way to many things all at once. I would have dynoed the car EXACTLY how it had been done previously PLUS the T&Ds. The problem here is you pulled filters, that were on the ORIGINAL pull, you changed tubes from the original ones you had, and you say something about the first ECU being a mopar, does that mean the second one was not ?? Sounds like you went back to a stock one and are using a vec1 ?? So thats yet ANOTHER change. Were you even trying to find out what the T&D's were going to do, or what this new "mess" was going to do ??

I know dyno pulls are not free. But I would have done the FIRST one JUST as you had originally, not changed anything, put everything back the way it was, and JUST see what the T&D's bought you. THEN after you get that number (which I would do at least 3 pulls on that set up) I would try no filters, then another run with something else... but PLEASE dont do all at once.. you have created a problem, and now you dont know what is causing it !!

-Jon

 

[monnieh]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

Actually Jon, your sig is one of the reasons I went with the T&D's so I am glad you replied.

I wish I had not pulled the filters as I think that is what caused the Mopar ECU to puke.

The changes from the first dyno were: chrome tubes, T&D's, and pulling the filters.

The Mopar ECU was in both times. The reason I asked about the VEC1 was just a curious question to see if that would have allowed me to lean out the fuel during the pull.

Do you think pulling the filters could have caused the Mopar ECU to freak out and dump fuel in?

 

[utahviper]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

Before you go to the dyno next time take the guard off the PCM spot and take your stock PCM with you. Then go to the dyno and dyno one with your stock PCM and one with the Mopar. My car got 15 less HP and torque with the mopar PCM. I wonder if the more you mod your car the less effective the mopar PCM is.

 

[Bugeater]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

Monnieh,
Its almost surreal the topic you started today is exactly a question I have, and was about to enter my own until I saw yours!

Last year I Dynoed 438 HP, 480 TQ. This number achieved with: ACR Intake, Headers, Exhaust, Mopar ECU, 3:55 gears.

Things I changed between that run and yesterday's run:
added: highflow cats from Sean Roe
added: aluminum flywheel
added: fluidyne radiator
added: T&D Rockers

Result? 438 HP, 472 TQ. I lost torque, with no gain up top

I dynoed yesterday in temps much LOWER than last summer. I'm at a loss as well.

I may have gained under the curve, but dont know until I compare runs.

Anyone else have any insight?

 

[Russ M]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

Here is the most important question for both of you. Were all the dyno pulls made at the same dyno jet facility? And are the number corrected or not.

 

[lleone]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

Enh... it's just our MY2000 CreamPuffs.

Lou

(2000 Gray no stripes ACR)

 

[GONABITE]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

Are you both sure that the install of the rockers was done correctly, changed the pushrods and did not tighten the lifters down to far as you would not be getting full lift? As far as changing out the PCM if you are doing this while on the dyno that is not really going to work so well it needs to learn so putting it right on may result in power losses. If you want to try the stock PCM put it inon the way to the dyno and drive the car for a good hour highway and street drivng and don't forget before starting the car to go full throttle with the key on so that the PCM recognizes full throttle postition.

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

Monnieh,

Put the car BACK the way it was, dont pull the filters, WHY would you anyway ?? you would NEVER run it that way. IT was pointless to do such. Also, I totally agree with the PCM swap procedure, but I would only do it to RESET everything. That whole pulling the "power plug" just didnt work for my car, it works on earlier ones, but 2000+ I think you have to swap out PCM's ONLY temporarily to get a COMPLETE reset. I have heard eveyone complain about the Mopar ECU, but guys, I GAINED 4hp and 5 tq from it. THat is NOT a big deal, I know, but its EXTRA power, but also it allows me to avoid check engine lights because of the exhaust upgrade.

As far as bugeaters pull goes, and hit T&D installs, everything by the books. A viper tech did HIS T&D's which was the SAME viper tech that did mine. The dyno is corrected, just like mine was (same dyno shop). Matter of fact if you want to watch the process he is the LINK to the recording of that dyno run of bugeaters.

http://www.tmscc.us/nonmembers/dyno.wmv

-Jon

 

[monnieh]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

OK to reset the Mopar computer I need to take it out, put the factory computer back in and then swap back the Mopar?

Do I run the car with the factory ECU in it? I am confused.

BTW: pulling the filters was NOT my idea. A friend of mine thought it would be a "good" idea for the dyno.

Dyno pulls where at differnt dyno's. BUT my friend with a 96 GTS with same mods as me except for a Vec1 pulled 440 and 480. Before on the previous (differnt) dyno we both pulled the same day and got almost identical numbers.

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

Hey Monnieh,

Give me a call at work, I'll explain it to ya. 919-392-8135

I am heading out the door to pick a buddy up from the dealership (he had to drop off his 2002 Z06 for tranny repair for the FIFTH time now). So give me about an hour and give me a call.

-Jon

 

[Bugeater]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

Not the same dyno, and I would agree that it might be a factor but the fact that Jon's car made near-identical power prior to T&D's to my car, and the numbers after each of his upgrades followed within the expected variances seen here, I expected to see an accurate report on this dyno. I tend to believe it is reporting fairly accurate.

The only real HP adder difference on Jon's car compared to mine is he has full 3" Corsa Header/Exhaust. I have the 2.5" Mopar (Borla) header exhaust.

Difference of 22HP? I doubt it.

What was the correction factor Jon?

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

.98 correction factor. Values uncorrected were 450hp/485TQ. IF TRUE BLUE used STD correction factor is 450/486. THEY HAD TO HAVE USED SAE if you want to compare, but not standard or uncorrect can be compared.

 

[GRAPE]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

What race track was that, to have that much done to your car I'd think it would be in the 11's pretty easy?

 

[BigCarrot]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

I went to 21st century for the grand opening dyno day, and it seemed to me that every car there was a little low. I wonder if it was just the dyno? Also, My HP went down a couple of clicks when I removed the filters. Perhaps they help straighten the air flow?

 

[monnieh]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

Yeah, I don't think it was the filters. I was just really pissed about the poor dyno and was using my friend suggestion to pull the filters as a scapegoat I guess.

I felt so bad about blaming my friend that I apologized to him!

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

Lol, thats ok, I blame bugeater for ALL my problems.. and I'm not even talking about my car !!


Run the 1/4 mile, and let us know how you do monnieh !! then we'll know if the dyno was right, or wrong !!


-Jon

 

[BigCarrot]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

Your friend wouldn't be Tony, would it? lol

 

[opnwide]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

monnieh,
was the first dyno facility speedworks in Lewisville. I tend to believe their dyno reads too high anyway. None of the dyno shop is Austin of San Antonio can duplicate Speedwork's numbers.
greg

 

[monnieh]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

No, actually that is where I usually dyno. They were at two different dyno's.

I know they dyno was not off as my friend saw the power increase you'd expect from the mods he made

 

[ewave]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

Monnieh,

How rich was your car running?

Let me know when you are going to the dyno next. I'd like to meet you there.

Paul

 

[BigCarrot]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

I heard your car was running so rich it was off the charts. That could be a problem. You might look into that. That will definitely cause a dip in power!

 

[monnieh]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

Hi Paul, I am planning on going to Speedworks soon. Email me your phone number and I'll call you so we can hook up! I want to ask you some questions about your heads too.

My previous dyno was almost perfect on the A/F ratio. The night before this dyno I ran my best time ever. Car ran strong all the way over to the dyno.

What could have made it freak out on the A/F ratio I wonder?

I have been driving it a lot after Jon taught me how to reset the computer on a 2000. After correctly reseting the computer and about 300 miles it feels stronger than ever. Next dyno I will not change anything from how it is setup right now.

I'm betting I pull the numbers I was expecting on the next run.

 

[99 R/T 10]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

Hi Paul, I am planning on going to Speedworks soon. Email me your phone number and I'll call you so we can hook up! I want to ask you some questions about your heads too.

My previous dyno was almost perfect on the A/F ratio. The night before this dyno I ran my best time ever. Car ran strong all the way over to the dyno.

What could have made it freak out on the A/F ratio I wonder?

I have been driving it a lot after Jon taught me how to reset the computer on a 2000. After correctly reseting the computer and about 300 miles it feels stronger than ever. Next dyno I will not change anything from how it is setup right now.

I'm betting I pull the numbers I was expecting on the next run.

Question, what was your A/F ratio? Mine was 13.5 throughout the RPM range until 5000, then dropped to 13 for the 500 RPM. What was yours at?

 

[monnieh]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

OK, here is all the data I have on the A/F ratios:

dyno averages from previous owner without T&D's:
1)12.7
2)12.5
3)12.1

A/F from my first dyno:
average 12.5 at 5500rpm

A/F from my last dyno:
average 10.2 at 5500rpm

 

[ewave]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

Monnieh,

You know, this suggest that the car is breathing LESS air after you installed the T&D's. Maybe they are not real? Maybe they are the special LOW LIFT rollers.

What was the source? How much did they cost... LOL!!!

 

[Jack B]

Re: Add T&D\'s and lost 20RWHP!?!? ***!!!

Monnieh:

The only thing that can alter the a/f that drastically in your bag of tricks is the Mopar Control module or a bad a/f pick up. Another problem is the inconsistency in a/f transducers. When a good dyno operator sees a substantial difference in a/f on the same car he changes the a/f transducer. In addition, the readings from the standard a/f transducer supplied with the most dyno's is suspect. Once again, a good dyno operator is going to throw that transducer away and use the more expensive wide-band device.

Most stock cars are running 13.5 - 14. That gets good power on a stock car, however, it is risky with any kind of power adder.