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Arrow Racing, Prefix, Ipsco adn Roe Racing Web Sites and Notes

Discussion in 'General Viper Discussion' started by Damion Green, Nov 23, 2020.

  1. Damion Green

    Damion Green Enthusiast

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    Im about 2 years from the possibility of driving my viper. But I've been doing some research recently. Some things I've found out recently. 1) Arrow Racing, who built most of the Viper race engines, did alot of development and did the factory engine rebuilds in the 1990s, was bought by a company called Prefix (who now has alot of Viper stroker kits and the like)see them at Prefix.com
    2) In the recent past I had questions about rear toe deflect due to the parts bin choices Chrysler made in building the rear end. The company called Ipsco has those items and alot of other bits, like brackets that convert the GEN2 rear breaks to 4 piston....and a bunch of other stuff. see them at https://Ipsco.or/newsite
    3) Roe Racing has alot of everything else you might need, hoses, gaskets, and other bits.
    anyone else have any web sites worth mentioning? See them at roeracing.com
    4)another source of a bunch of wrecked Viper parts X2Builders.com
    DODGE VIPER BIG BRAKE KIT INSTALL | IPSCO FRONT | 1996-2002 - YouTube

    DODGE VIPER REAR BIG BRAKE SRT CALIPER UPGRADE IPSCO | Gen 2 96-02 - YouTube
    Personal Notes of
    General flaws of the Gen2 as I see it

    Problem:
    Inadequate Brakes
    4 piston front, single piston dakota rears.
    the Fix:
    Stoptech fronts, Gen 3/4/5 4 piston rears.

    Problem:
    Overheating side sills
    The stock Cat likes to retain heat.
    the Fix:
    Aftermarket cats/catless

    The Problem:
    The "aggressive" UPS exhaust sound.
    2.5inch exhaust
    The Fix:
    Corsa and a cam, 3in exhaust

    The Problem:
    Overheating Engine in Traffic and on the track
    The Fix:
    1) thermostat and airflow control through engine bay. Also air bubbles in the coolant.
    2) Belly pan under front fascia by Roe Racing.
    3) Hood Vents

    The Problem:
    Oil Pan baffling
    Stock pan isn't ideal for turning left and right alot, also bad for reducing windage.
    The Fix:
    1) A windage plate inserted into the stock pan
    2) A custom Oil Pan, hopefully wider and shallower

    The Problem:
    Tires availability and cost and goofy 6 bolt pattern
    The Fix:
    1) Newer Viper rims or
    2) Centerlock setup and Custom Rims
    3) Custom Rim (from EVOD)
    4) Convert to a conventional 5 bolt pattern and run a 2010 Sized Corvette tire.

    The Problem:
    Valve Train (trane?) comes from a dakota truck, tiny push rods weak roller rockers...
    Causes deflection and limits the valve movement at high RPMs
    The Fix:
    Better stuff, lots of options, may move to 1.6 Ratio rockers

    The Problem:
    Power Steering pump overheats on track, can cause fire.
    The Fix:
    1) Bigger radiator for the cooling of the power steering fluid
    2) Change the power steering cap that has a drain that pours fluid under the car, instead of randomly allowing the cap to leak or pop spraying Power steering fluid all over the exhaust and causing a fire.
    3) Electric power steering

    The Problem:
    Possible Air Starvation to the rear cylinders
    The Fix:
    1) Larger Throttle bodies(if there is even an option todo this, or if its even a gain)
    2) Independent Throttle bodies, engine tune focusing on exhaust levels on each exhaust port, not simply at the OEM sensor location.
    3) Slightly Larger volume injectors

    The Problem:
    Rear Toe Deflection caused by questionable suspension parts choices by Mopar.
    The Fix:
    IPSCO "rear toe deflection" brackets

    The Problem:
    Oil in the intake charge causing carbon build up at the base of the valve.
    Lowered Octane caused by oil vapor in the intake charge.
    The Fix:
    Oil Catch can.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020
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  2. Damion Green

    Damion Green Enthusiast

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    addendum
    The Problem:
    Overheating Engine in Traffic and on the track
    cause by
    airflow control through engine bay
    Air pockets in the engine coolent
    The Fix:
    1) 1998-2002 Radiator Shroud (airflow control through engine bay
    2) 170 deg Thermostat (from Roe Racing)
    3) Radiator Bleed valve located in a spliced upper radiator hose (from Roe Racing)
    3) Belly pan under front fascia by Roe Racing making better airflow control through engine bay (or so the claim is, I haven't seen any data or confirmation of this claim)
    4) Hood Vents (from Autoform)
    6) Ceramic Coating of the combustion chamber. I haven't seen any specific data proving that this coating does lower operating temps but I've seen it commented on in a few places. Nascar engines commonly have internal coatings on piston skirts and the like thus the claim doesn't seem totally outside probability
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2020
  3. Damion Green

    Damion Green Enthusiast

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    I thought after listing all the flaws I might add some advantages of the Viper over say...a Corvette. 1) Bullet Proof Dana Rear End, even tho the Corvette and the Viper share the "Dana Super 44" the Viper Dana is clearly more durable and thus almost legendary. 2)The Viper Borg Warner/Tremec is also a heavier duty version than found in a Corvette or other GM LS equipped cars. 3) Grounding issues, (Or lack There of on the Viper). Go to any Corvette forum and you will find Vetts are riddled with Grounding and Electrical issues....not a Problem on a Viper.
    The Men and Women who built the Vipers loved these cars and it is clear from the assembly this is true. Dodge built 1000-500 of these cars a year, they were each special.
    GM makes 1000 corvettes a week....Corvettes are just another car for the most part(GS, ZO6, ZR1 aside).
    In general I think the Viper was setup to fail, the production limitations that the small plant presented automatically made the car undesirable from managements POV. When Marchione "Okayed" the 5th gen he did not allow expansion of the factory. The factory built as many cars as it could (5-600 a year), and even tho it built to basically maximum capacity the 5th Gen was still cancelled.
    To "2nd Guess" them, they should have built a Hemi powered one (yes the chassis wasn't set up for an engine that is 3 inches wider, yeah yeah yeah) but the reality is IF the Viper had a Hemi + ZF autotrans and cost 70k it would have sold alot more. As it was, the factory limitations spelled the cars doom. They sold at total of something close to 16,000 Vipers in 20 years, by comparison FCA sold something close to 16,000 Hellcats in its first 2 years. FCA sold 3300 Demons in 1 year. The highest Viper Production was 1996 with roughly 1200 units.
    It's not exactly an "Apples to Apples" comparison, but it is close.
    The fact that the 2nd gen cars had so many issues (due to development investment limitations, not build quality) outlined the fact that the factory NEVER fully supported the car.
    They never had a model that had enough shared parts from other product lines to make it cost effective, and those shared parts were questionable anyway. The car failed because the Executives weren't fully "on the team".
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
  4. GTSnake

    GTSnake Enthusiast

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    There's no way they would have build a V8 Viper. It just wouldn't have been the same. It's like watering down the brand.

    Your impression that the factory never supported the car is slightly off. It's all down to dollars and ROI. They had limited budget and Viper never was profitable by itself. It's usefulness was a halo car and when times got lean you have to chop the money losers first. Second, the Viper used a lot of off the shelf parts from other models. There's no way they could afford to create all unique components just for Viper. So they did try to make it cost effective as much as they could. Considering development cost Vipers are priced very competitively compared to other exotic sports cars.

    I think what you're getting at is why didn't Viper volumes go high enough to support the model for a longer time. It all comes down to the manual trans. The trend that all other supercars offer an Automanual gear box except Viper. They really tried to do that on the Gen V but it just wouldn't handle the torque. The Dodge management offered huge bonuses for the engineering team if they could pull it off but they just couldn't. So the one main strength of the Viper was the cause of the downfall in the end.
     
  5. Twinturbosd

    Twinturbosd Enthusiast

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    Appreciate the knowledge:)
     
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  6. Damion Green

    Damion Green Enthusiast

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    Im pretty sure that they sold more Hellcat challengers in 2 years than the viper in 20....Id bet if they could blend a hellcat and a viper they would have sold more than 500 cars a year....if they sold 2000 of them a year, id also bet they would still be making Viper. The automotive world is worse off for the loss of the Viper, V8 or V10..... but that is just my opinion...
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2021
  7. GTSnake

    GTSnake Enthusiast

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    Dude, in terms of volume sold obviously the Hellcat outsold Vipers exponentially. Go talk to any one of the Chrysler engineers and ask them if they every contemplated using a V8 in a Viper. You will get some funny looks then you will probably get a "you're nuts" response.
     
  8. Damion Green

    Damion Green Enthusiast

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    Id take all the funny looks if there was still a new viper to be bought.
     
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  9. FRED G MCCOY

    FRED G MCCOY VCA Member VCA Member

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    Personally I'm glad the viper production was so limited. I go to shows and cruise-ins weekly where there are 15 vettes, 15 twangs, 20 60-70's muscles, 6 hot-rodded model A's and 1 viper - mine. No one there has the bragging rights the viper has. No one there has the unique style of the Viper. Everyone there drools over the viper. And it's built like a rock. Thank you Mopar.
     
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  10. DJ'sviper

    DJ'sviper Enthusiast

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    That's right Fred!!! A lot of viper owners drive their cars occasionally so people don't get a chance to see many of them. I've had people pull me over to get a chance to look at my Gen 1. One lady had no idea what it was and wanted to know. I like having a car that is special and rare. I feel the Gen 1 and 2 are really underpriced but they are coming up in value very fast over the last year. Some owners are still in the mind set of around 35k for a Gen 1 or 2. Others are pricing their cars from $40K to $55K. I have a relative in North Fort Myers. WE might end up their this Spring some time.
     
  11. GTSnake

    GTSnake Enthusiast

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    Man, not around here. I've got to move out of Deetroit. Yes we're more exclusive than a Vette or stang but there's so many around here people go "look another Viper".
     
  12. Damion Green

    Damion Green Enthusiast

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    Ive lived all over the mid west (not Detroit) and Southern California and Florida...I can count on one hand how many Vipers ive "seen in the wild" aside from at mopar shows... and apparently most here would prefer the car be dead....
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
  13. FRED G MCCOY

    FRED G MCCOY VCA Member VCA Member

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    I slipped in a profile pic of an equally rare Mopar, my 1934 PFxx Plymouth 4 door. It surpasses my viper in terms of interest at car shows. GTSnake, don't move from Detroit, enjoy the scenery. I worked the big three in Detroit + others for most of my career and enjoyed every trip there. Most of all, I loved the "auto-attitude". You get to see go-fast Detroit steel everywhere.
     
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  14. GTSnake

    GTSnake Enthusiast

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    Now see you enjoyed every "trip" there. Key word being trip. If you lived here it would be very different. It's a one show town where everything lives and dies by the state of one industry. I've lived through many many ups and downs. You mostly remember the downs. As far as seeing go-fast cars unless you have insider access to the specific labs where these factory cars are being worked on the general public rarely gets to see anything.
     
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  15. FRED G MCCOY

    FRED G MCCOY VCA Member VCA Member

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    Good Point. Over the years, I saw Detroit city decay/rebuild/decay. it is a one show town. A very good show for many many years.
     
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  16. GTSnake

    GTSnake Enthusiast

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    And you got to go back home to a warm tropical place while we get stuck freezing our @sses off in our go-fast cars (sitting in the garage) :)
     
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  17. Damion Green

    Damion Green Enthusiast

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    Back on topic.....
    Oiling issues caused by windage
    a Crank Scraper
    Oil Pan Baffling with the Passengers side throw out "bump" (hard to explain)
    Vertical oil pan slats that align with each main cap.

    Dry sump oil- tho the additional gaskets typically mean more possible points of failure
    each of these things can free up 30-40hp

    Injector limits
    The stock injectors are good for 500hp support. When you push a part you should not require their maximum output. That is parts require "Head Room", so if your engine puts down 500hp, your injectors should be able to support 550-600hp.
     

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