Bad smoke at the track. Help! Any prelim ideas?

Cop Magnet

Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 11, 2003
Posts
2,533
Reaction score
0
Location
Kenilworth, IL
The info I have is preliminary, but I've always found it helpful to feel you guys out about these kinds of issues even before getting to the dealer.

I've run at the track once or twice a year without any problems. Recent oil change (not overfilled), brake fluid and the usual of course.

At the track, I got black flagged the first lap after warmup. They asked if smoke was normal because the corner workers thought it was fairly prominent. I said no and they let me back out saying they would keep an eye on it. Coming out of the corner at turn 11 at Gingerman, I see a freaking Hiroshima cloud of blue smoke :eek: and pit out. The observers all said it was out of the tailpipe and not anywhere else.

Car runs fine with no misfires or loss of power. The oil level is rock steady. No oil underneath or anything else weird. No oil in the filter box or intake tubes. Took it ot the dealer in Grand Rapids, and they were reassuring. Didn't pull the plugs or do any real testing, though, as far as I can tell. The Viper tech said as long as the car runs well there is unlikely to be anything major and I could drive it. He said the next step would be to pull the intake and replace the PVC valve underneath. A sticking valve seal was his other thought. He doubted it would be a ring. He did not think a compression test would help.

I drove it back and got on it on the freeway with NO smoke or weirdness of any kind. Took a couple of easy laps at the track with smoke just like before and called it a weekend.

So of course the dealer is the next step, but what order of things should I suggest they look into things? I do not like the idea of pulling the intake and replacing random parts like the PVC. A compression test sounds reasonable to me. It may not show anything abnormal, but if it does, it certainly sounds to me the engine needs to come apart. Does this happening on the track with turns as opposed to the freeway on the straights have anything to do with it? It does not sound to me like a problem windage would cause.

Appreciate your help!
 

99 R/T 10

Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 4, 2001
Posts
10,314
Reaction score
0
Location
Enterprise, AL USA
What is happening is during hard braking, the oil is puching forward to the front side of the valve covers. From there it "pukes" into you air box. Then when accelerating out of the corner, the oil is sucked back into the engine where you or the track workers see the blue smoke. You want to get a puke can or catch can to keep the oil from going back to the engine.
 

syldogRT/10

Viper Owner
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Posts
210
Reaction score
0
Location
Pennsylvania
What is happening is during hard braking, the oil is puching forward to the front side of the valve covers. From there it "pukes" into you air box. Then when accelerating out of the corner, the oil is sucked back into the engine where you or the track workers see the blue smoke. You want to get a puke can or catch can to keep the oil from going back to the engine.

This sounds like great advise. Also, not too expensive! For what it's worth, you may want to get a leak down test to be on the safe side, cause if you're getting a sticky valve at high RPM, it could become expensive!
 

Viper Wizard

Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 28, 2001
Posts
5,258
Reaction score
4
Location
South Salem, NY USA
Yes the track corners have to do with the smoke. From your description, the first thing I would do is to pull your valve covers off and look for a valve stem seal out of place. I have seen this on a few motors. I would also do a leak-down test.
If your tech wants to pull the intake to change the PCV valve then he is not much of a Viper tech! :confused: The PCV valve was eliminated after 1998!
 

99 R/T 10

Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 4, 2001
Posts
10,314
Reaction score
0
Location
Enterprise, AL USA
Mike he said that there was no oil in the airbox.

Good catch Chuck, I missed it. 99% of the time it's the oil puking into the airbox and the oil indication would be obvious. Is it possible for the oil to puking thru the PCV back into the engine on the older cars? Also, the oil will kill the octane rating of the fuel and cause detonation.
 
OP
OP
C

Cop Magnet

Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 11, 2003
Posts
2,533
Reaction score
0
Location
Kenilworth, IL
Thanks, yes I actually bought a puke can some time ago but never installed it. The air box was the first thing I checked and no oil there. I haven't taken it to "my" Viper tech yet, just the guy in Grand Rapids since it was the closest dealer with a tech. Seemed like a good guy, but he said only 2 or t3 Vipers in the whole area. No one he knows tracks a Viper.

The corner workers though the smoke was consistently after coming out of corners, but I thought it was specifically right handers. Of course, it's a clockwise track and my view was limited to say the least.
 

2000_Black_RT10

Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Posts
1,684
Reaction score
0
Location
Up North
I would do is to pull your valve covers off and look for a valve stem seal out of place.

I'd agree to investigate this too. The valve guides / stems are outboard in the rocker valley and it may explain it if oil is being forced outboard around the corners and pooling up around the valve seals, in such that in a straight line your stems would not be exposed to that much oil. It's surprising how much smoke will pour out from one or 2 leaky or out-of-position seals.

i.e. image borrowed from www.rollingthunderz.com below..

You must be registered for see images attach
 
OP
OP
C

Cop Magnet

Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 11, 2003
Posts
2,533
Reaction score
0
Location
Kenilworth, IL
I'm taking her in later today. So, the next question is, if this is the problem, does it involve pulling the head to seat new valve stem seals? I have 17K miles, should all the other seals be replaced? If done under my MaxCare warranty should I be paging Greg Good while I'm at it :D ? I sure hope someone says yes :D
 

Tom F&L GoR

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 3, 2000
Posts
4,984
Reaction score
7
Location
Wappingers Falls
Leaky seals or no seals should increase oil consumption all the time (at least it did in fleet testing.) Also, the big puff would come mostly during a high RPM throttle-off, when intake port vacuum is at it's highest. At WOT, there is no differential pressure between the crankcase and the intake to push/pull oil. Last comment - if there is access to a borescope, the piston top or valve should look a lot different if that cylinder is consuming oil. Not that I really know what's the culprit, just comments to help the diagnosis.
 

2000_Black_RT10

Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Posts
1,684
Reaction score
0
Location
Up North
IF it is a bad seal they don't need to pull the heads. It's just a matter of removing the spark plug and replacing it with an air line fitting which would attach to a compressed air line. The compressed air will keep the valve shut while the valve spring is removed in order to change the seal, otherwise removing the valve spring retainer the valve would drop into the combustion chamber. I usually bring each piston near TDC just in case the valve did drop if the retainers are stubborn to remove. Before removing the retainers I give the valve spring cap a couple taps with a hammer to loosen up the tapered retainers. They would have a valve spring compressor that can compress the valve spring with the heads on the car. I've done a V8 in an hour comfortably, it just depends how easy it is to get to the spark plugs and a bit more time to reset the lash on the old school solid lifter stuff I play with. No reason why a competent fellow couldn't get the job done in an hour or 2 on the Viper. It's an inexpensive repair, probably $50 or for the seals. Viton seals are usually the way to go, I haven't looked at what the Vipers have for OEM. Sometimes there are wire retainers on the rubber seal which break and the valve seal pops off the guide / boss.
 
OP
OP
C

Cop Magnet

Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 11, 2003
Posts
2,533
Reaction score
0
Location
Kenilworth, IL
Guys, thanks a million for your input! You guys are a wealth of knowledge. For post ****** :) Well, maybe no Greg Good heads, but I will have them throw on the roller rockers while they've got the covers off. Unless they are willing to strike a deal on the labor.
 
Top