Head gasket question, I want it fixed perfectly! HELP!

[Mopar Steve]

After smelling coolant i became worried that there may be a problem. I always made sure my system was "burped" and that there was coolant in both the facia tank and the fill tank. the car never ran too hot and now I have been diagnosed with a bad/leaking head gasket. Leaking so bad, that now puddles form under the car.

My Questions are: Who is the best tech for doing this job? and, will this be covered under the factory extended warranty that I purchased?(Drive train warranty) Is it best to have the motor removed and sent out, or should it be repaired in the car? I don't care how long it takes I just want to make sure it gets done right.

I understand (from previous posts) that the factory head gaskets are not as good as some aftermarket mfgs.

I live in Delaware, and although I like the local tech, I don't know if I trust him with this job. (has never done it before)

I know many of you have had this same problem. Thanks for all your help with my 94 RT/10.

 

[FRANK]

Steve,

Remember we met at the Mopar show in NJ? It is me. If I were you, I'd do it myself. You already have a lift and the tools. I'd call a few tuners and get my hands on some aftermerket gaskets. If they won't sell them to you, buy Mopar gaskets. I know if and when mine starts leaking, I will tear the motor apart myself. Remember, no one will do it like you want it done. I don't care who it is and what their reputation is. If it ain't your own...you know the deal!

Do you really want them to take your motor out of your car? Even if they send it back to Arrow it will experience leaks again within the next 20,000 miles just like clockwork anyway.

The reason why I like the Viper is because they are fairly easy to work on. Not cramped etc. Go for it!

Remember, most dealer mechanics don't give a hoot about anything. They might act like they do but in essence, your repair is no different than another car that is brought into their bay. I know plenty of dealer mechanics and have been told many stories. I know of a Dodge dealer here in NJ that pulled a motor and they would up breaking his blower motor housing and cracked his windshield getting it out. This is what I am talking about! Best of luck...email me if you wanna talk! I'd love to help you out!

If I rememember correctly your car just flipped 22,000...there you have it!

 

[Mopar Steve]

Thank guys but I dont think that I trust myself wrenching on this motor. Building my hemi car is ok but I'd be afraid of voiding the warranty and who knows what else. Steve

 

[FRANK]

Steve,

Keep one thing in mind. Probably any Dodge mechanic who pulls the heads (if that is the case) will be his first time working on a V-10 Viper motor. Your car will be the so called "guinea pig." Working on the V-10 is no different than working on your Hemi except for 2 additional cylinders. Whatever you wind up doing, I wish you the best.

P.S. I hope that I didn't jinx you when we met two months ago and I asked you if you ever had your head gaskets replaced, remember?

 

[Qualitywires.com]

Yeah, I think if you were to do it yourself and had the specs....it would be lik plug and play on the computer...Hmm..I might do mine while I'm thinking about it. I will wait til it leaks though. Good luck.

 

[Mopar Steve]

jonB:

Thank you that was pretty much the way I felt, I just needed to hear it "out loud".

Stupid question: What is "VEWC"?

Now as for that teeth ceaning............

Thanks, Steve.

 

[Tom Sessions]

VEWC is the viper engine warrenty center.Not all tech are as described above some of us do really care about your cars and treat them much better then our own.if your interested I can do the repairs on your car and assure you your car will be stored inside and well taken care of during it's stay.if you don't mind sending it to Wilmington NC.By all means if you have the warrenty use it you won't be sorry.Tom

 

[FRANK]

Jon,

You mention resetting the liners as if (1) they pop up out of the block completely (2) it is some sort of project within itself.

Spec is .004" How much could a liner shift considering the head is bolted to the block, pushing downward force onto the liners? Okay.... say .010" out of the block. At that point you get your self a block of wood (no matter how elementary) and tap the liners down .006 or so carefully to within spec. What makes anyone think that Arrow would do it any different? I think alot of people make mountains out of mole hills especially when repairing this car. If this was rocket science the people at Arrow wouldn't be working there making $15 - $20 an hour. They would be working at NASA.

Jon, I have a question for you. When all of the Vipers 92-95 run out their extended warranties, what will be your advice to them when and if they start leaking coolant from the head gasket area? Will you still recommend that they pay to have their motors shipped back to Arrow and spend $10,000?

 

[Steve-Indy]

Above posts valuable, especially as MANY of us are REALLY NOT high level mechanics(I call this the "fluids and finish" group...AND I am a CARD CARRYING MEMBER!!!). I personally would follow JonB's advice, and VERY MUCH appreciate Tom's post and professional dedication!!! After warrenty, we will hopefully be able to find qualified/willing folks to do the REAL MECHANICAL work for those not inclined to do(or LEARN to do) their own repairs. Fortunately, here in INDY we do have a "few" folks with ability, facilities, desire, and dedication...though I personally hope to MINIMIZE their utilization!!!

Steve Fess Ind/Ky and ILL VCA

 

[Janni]

Steve,
If you decide to get it done with your warranty, then by all means send the car to Tom Sessions. (Read the shameless promotion in the Dealer / Tech Reviews section if its still there...) and rest assured that your snake will be better than new. Tom has EXTENSIVE experience on all Viper engines - early cars and later ones. He's smart, conscientious and careful. He is the ONLY person we let work on our cars, we do all our track prep, fluids change, oil pan change, rotor swaps, etc, ourselves because its so rare you can find someone who will do it like you will. Well, Tom will - actually better, since we would not touch the head gasket repair, either. Having access to the right tools, etc. is important, too. He's helped us find some things wrong with our car by going the extra mile. Use the warranty! Delaware is not too far away - get your car fixed right.

Email me if you have any questions. Hope this helps.

 

[FRANK]

Food for thought:

(1) New head gaskets and tapping the liners down will will fix the problem long enough that it probably will be the last time anyone has to replace it again.

(2) New O-ring seals at the bottom will not prevent the liners from shifting upward again.

(3) If they install new liners I hope they install new rings because you'll be burning oil and having blowby like you've never seen before!

(4) An individual who works for Arrow told me that their "fix" will postpone the problem too...he said that within another 20-25,000 miles, the motors will be leaking again.

(5) If you have a warranty I strongly urge those people not mechanically inclined to simply have their head gaskets replaced.

 

[Tom Sessions]

Having the head gaskets replaced will only mask the problem for awhile.The liners are replaced and the bore refitted to keep the liners from walking side to side not up and down.If you know anything about big diesels this will make sense as it is the same design.As far as I hope they replace the rings come on now let's get serious do you really think they are going to go through that much trouble and not put it back together right as jon said 25 items inspected and replaced as needed.Your not going to do that in the car.

 

[Marc Lublin]

In the time that everyone has been talking about this new gaskets could have been installed already. The car is a simple one to work on, and new head gaskets could be installed in a couple of hours.

 

[FRANK]

Marc,

Couldn't have said it better myself. At least a FEW people feel the same way I do. I just can't hang with benchbuilders and wash and waxers...

 

[VardaMan]

Steve, follow Janni's advice. Call Tom Sessions! He knows it all
and is a great person! Avoid the amateurs at all costs! My personal experience with my local "Five Star Boneheads" was a disaster.

 

[speedshftr]

does this mean the race is off?just kidding/////that ***** .take it where my baby is at chriss barones shop in n.j///from what ive been told he is the man. NJRACER.com.

 

[Rich Carlson]

Steve, might I ask you a question? You said that "it has been diagnosed that you have a bad head gasket". Who did the diagnosing? Did they show you where the leak is? The reason I ask, is because it is common for the coolant crossover gaskets at the rear of the engine, to leak. The coolant would then pool on the ground at the rear of the engine. If this is the case, you could do this on your own. If the head gasket is leaking, the protrusion of the liners will have to checked which has a spec of .002" to .004", as well as the protrusion of the adjacent liners which can't exceed .0015". If the liners have moved (which I doubt, the liners should be removed to replace the "O" ring. This would require the liner to be driven out from the bottom of the block. You don't pry them out, or you will damage the aluminum block. I use a hammer handle (with out the metal head)and not a brass or steel punch, to drive the liner out. A punch will roll the edge of the liner. The liners don't come out that easy because of the coolant corrosion. The adjacent liners should also be held in place with liner clamps so they don't move. This...you may not want to try. Listen to JonB.

 

[FRANK]

Like Rich said, it is doubtful that the liners have shifted. Plus all of the coolant corrosion, etc. over the past years has probably made it even more difficult for the shifetrs to move, let alone drive them out. As far as liner clamps, one can make their own out of scrap steel and a bolt, copying the ones out of the service manual.

Also, factory torque on the head bolts stipulates 30 ft lbs plus 1/4 turn. I think that is way too low. I'd go at least 60 ft lbs plus a 1/4 turn, spray the gaskets with hi-temp gasket spray and call it a day. That is probably part of the problem too...not enough torque on the head bolts.

As far as Jon B speaking of losing horsepower as a result of a thicker head gasket...it would be miniscule. Jon, you are making it seem like you will lose 30 horsepower or something. If you lost 10 horsepower I'd be surprised.

And as far as warranties I do not have one and I wouldn't purchase one. If something breaks, I fix it. I do not trust anyone except myself.

 

[kverges]

Interesting debate, but a little smart-alecky from a few folks.

I am in the middle of the road on this issue. I suppose some folks have boundless time to wrench on their own cars so in that case DIY is perhaps best (but you still have to buy your own parts). Otherwise, why pay for parts and labor when someone can do the work for you? I NEVER do warranty work on my Vipers; we have an excellent Viper tech in the Dallas area. I do change my own fluids, brakes, set up corner weights, etc., though.

If you end up with a full engine rebuild, rent or borrow a trailer, bring the car home and detail the heck out of the empty engine bay while you wait. Plus, the rebuilt engine will come back with ALL wear items replaced, such as bearings and rings, a nice bonus.

And a head gasket change in 2 hours? Please. If you have never done the job before, I would allocate a weekend. Remember you have to take it slowly and meticulously if you want it perfect. 2 hours would be a thrash.

If it were my car I'd have warranty work done and I feel perfectly able to replace head gaskets myself.

FWIW,

Keith