the next step: carbon tubbed coupe

[pitviper]

forgive me all, for my always all-too-apparent motorsport mindedness...the rules are changing. the ACO announced that the GTS class will be accepting carbon tubbed supercars as of 2003. this means that the pagani zonda, porsche carrera GT, ferrari F60, ford GT40, caddy cien, VW Nardo, etc, etc, will be now eligable to be raced by a core of racers who are ravenously hungry for cars to race and make a name with not only at LeMans itself, but also in the ALMS.

the rules also look to be moving toward where GTS will have a much more legitimate shot at winning overall (much like the GT1 class of '94-'98). the next logical step is for chrysler to make a vast improvement on the current (meaning SRT) Viper (much as the GTS was to the RT-10 initially) by building a carbon tubbed supercoupe to not only sell for the road, but also to take back to LeSarthe and win. can you imagine a Viper winning LeMans OVERALL?!?!?! eternal bragging rights my friends...not to mention some KILLER marketing power.

if need be, they can produce a more practical coupe to sell to most, while producing a run of 100 Homologation Special carbonites to get the racecars legalized. stamped and numbered...hey, the Viper GT2's didn't have any trouble getting snatched up at 100k a pop, now did they? i tend to be privy to quite a good bit of information on the sportscar/endurance racing front, and i can tell you that the time is NOW for DC to get back into the scene. the series in north america (ALMS) is only getting bigger and LeMans itself will be coming into much more of the world stage that it had been used to quite soon as well.

NASCAR is looking very much the part of the Roman Empire...it is only a matter of time before it collapses under it's own weight. say what you want about it's CURRENT popularity, but just stay tuned to the changing tides of motorsport, you'll see. the return of the "enlightened" race fan is emminent. long live the Viper in the hallowed halls of LeMans! we need to let DC know loud and clear that we want our pide and joy continually apart of the international motorsport subconcious. it's becoming a smaller world, NASCAR is but a local budget sucker...i hope they see that before it's too late...comments please...

pit

 

[pitviper]

unfortunately, since the c-coupe isn't even able to be titled for street use at all, they wouldn't be able to use them as such. that, and they will need 100 to be produced, which if i'm not mistaken, only 25 are supposed to be the first year, correct? what is a possibility is that the competition coupe could be counted as the race version of the roadster, because they share so much in common, and the roadster would actually be what homologates the coupe.

only problem is...honestly, the competition coupe straight from dodge would get trounced by even the current FIA/ACO spec GTS-R's. dodge really just needs to sac up and build a limited run carbon tubbed (a'la almost EVERY OTHER supercar out or coming out now) Viper coupe, and build the race car off of that. the great thing about these new and evolving rules is that people are going to be able to convert even a road supercar to race for much quicker and be competetive with it.

example, you could get a ferrari F60, or Porsche Carrera GT and get it to competetive race spec without much relative effort. try buying a road Z06 and making it a competitive GTS race car...yeah right!!! why do you think that the C5-R is so extremely far removed from the road car? and why it takes all of GM's spending power in a factory effort to keep the car able to win? the amazing thing about the viper, ferrari, and S7 (to use current examples) is that all of these cars are able to win and none of them are supported by a factory! especially the Viper and the ferrari 550.

pit

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

I would LOVE to see a Factory Viper team Back DOMINATING and I bet we will. I would also equally love to see nascar fans abandon it for "real racing"

and leave FOX broadcasting on the short end of multimillion dolar contract losses and be forced to cover the "good racing".

Nothing is better than seeing a Viper on teh track battling with the vettes and porsches.


I would love to see this return, especialyl because the ALMS visits a track 20 mins from my house.

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[Steve Ferguson]

Wouldn't you rather see a street coupe version, or some other exciting vehicle, before they spend that funding for racing? Remember, every action causes a reaction.

 

[pitviper]

honestly, and i know that this is going to cause backlash, but i really think that the funds need to be spent on racing. not that i don't long for a street coupe, but i would be completely happy if the spent the funds on a limited production "road ready racing Viper", took it racing, established a trend of dominant competitiveness (as it has for the past 6 years with the current GTS-R), and then used the knowledge garnered from the racing to develop a more immaculate "coupe for the Viper masses" (as with the current GTS).

granted though, my mind is on the motorsports side of things, and there are fewer people of such thinking than there are of those who would rather have a "proper" road car first. not that i'm against that ideology either, just that i'm personally more in favor of the one situation...

thanks for the great discussion, guys! i hope it continues...

Godspeed and Godbless,
pit

 

[Steve Ferguson]

No need to apologize. And it is nice to see that some people still appreciate racing. I guess the key to your dream is very much the same as those who covet a coupe. Simply put, the success of the PVO vehicles are going to determine their financial future, so the more they sell the better your chance of seeing your dreams evolve.

 

[pitviper]

definetely a good point about the success of PVO's vehicles playing a major role in all of this. it really seems that we are at some sort of an empass i guess...i have a question steve...do members of DC who have any..."clout", i guess you could say, regularly read this board? i would really love to have an unpropoganda-laced discussion on the personal opinions of some of the dodge officials regarding this matter. i don't suppose that there is any way of contacting PVO themselves either is there? i'm going to school for an Industrial Engineering degree to venture into sportscar/motorsport design myself and would love to get feedback from those who spawned the reason for my wanting to venture in that direction in the first place! thanks for the help. if you need to e-mail me personally, it's [email protected]

thanks
-pit

 

[Steve Ferguson]

Pit, someone from DC monitors this board pretty much all day. Any of the "real" clout holders only get bits and pieces, but they do have their finger on the "pulse", and refer to this site much more frequently then we ever anticipated.

As for your schooling and PVO, I visited Detroit last summer and got to view one of the more spectacular events in my memory. They held it outside of the Silverdome, and it had engineering teams from colleges all over the WORLD! I remember one team that made a 500cc V8!!!! There was some really cool stuff there, and it looked like an absolute blast. Many of the PVO members were there working, watching and advising. John Fernandez was even working one of the race scales, and making recommendations to all of the teams that needed a little racing advise. Anyway, this is something you would appreciate, and I would be more than willing to pass along any message you have to the PVO Team. I will not tell you that you will get a response, but I can promise that they will get it. Good luck.

 

[pitviper]

as far as the rules go now, the chassis itself at least would have to share general construction (carbon vs. aluminumum vs. steel, etc.) with the road car...the body panels of course can and are changed to carbon fiber; most cars are able to be widened, etc. one of the advantages of a carbon chassis is of course that they are lighter, and easier to build below the weight regulations, therefore allowing the team to ballast the car back up to a legal level, but getting the freedom to place that extra weight where it would be most benificial for the setup of the car...

one of the issues that manufacturers like ferrarihave had fairly recently is that they don't want their super expensive car to be losing to a "cheap" one, like a Viper or a vette. the truth is of course that the vipers and vettes that they'd be losing to don't cost 70k! the race cars cost just as much (more or less) as any others, but to the AVG. VIEWER, these "much less expensive" cars are showing up the big exoticas. and the factories of course have to care about this opinion/perception. that's why it is going to probably take DC building a limmited run of Viper Supercoupes and having them tested/advertised/marketed at a price that is comparable to the cars made of more "unobtanium"...on the flip side, it's a GREAT marketing card for DC when their "bargin supercar" is beating the big boys, but if that drives away some very "important" competetors from LeMans, etc. the FIA GT and ACO wont be very supportive of their efforts...we have to think about all sides of the argument...anyway, i just want to make sure that the Viper continues to win in top flight, world class sportscar/endurance racing...how they get there is entirely in their hands...

pit

 

[jrkermode]

Can PVO afford this supercar? It's my understanding that they have to pay there own way within DC. Assuming they would need to dip into corporate advertising dollars, is a Dodge what DC wants competing against other top marques? Seems like a more appropriate venue for the Mercedes SLR. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the Viper as top dog, but a GTS SLR and a GT Viper seem to fit the brand structure better.

As for making a competitive GT Viper, the ACO has proven through the BMW V8 and Corvette programs that pretty much anything is possible.

 

[Guyver1]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jrkermode:
Can PVO afford this supercar? It's my understanding that they have to pay there own way within DC. Assuming they would need to dip into corporate advertising dollars, is a Dodge what DC wants competing against other top marques? Seems like a more appropriate venue for the Mercedes SLR. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the Viper as top dog, but a GTS SLR and a GT Viper seem to fit the brand structure better.

As for making a competitive GT Viper, the ACO has proven through the BMW V8 and Corvette programs that pretty much anything is possible.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm more inclined to think that Mercedes would run an LMP car.

Also, what do you mean by the BMW and Corvette Programs? The Corvette is in the GTS class as of the moment.

 

[jrkermode]

Guyver1,

You're thinking they wouldn't run the SLR in competition at all? I could see that.

What I meant about the BMW and Corvette programs is that the ACO found a way to accomodate them in GTS, therefore I don't see why they couldn't also find a way to accomodate the Viper in GT.

 

[Guyver1]

Yes, they could run the Viper in GT, but it just wouldn't do much for the brand name, especially if GM keeps the Corvette in GTS. The $80,000 Viper running a class lower than the $49,000 Corvette? That wouldn't look too good, and the taunting would never cease from the Vette guys. I know that the race cars would have little or no similarities with the road cars, but still the appearance would be incredibly embarassing if the Corvette beats the Viper every race by the virtue of being in a faster class.

Secondly, they kicked-out the V8 M3's because Porsche threw a crying fit. If the Viper starts to run away with wins in the GT class, expect another wild crying fit from Porsche.

 

[jrkermode]

Guyver,

I agree.


Let's start over.

The thread suggested that GTS will soon be populated with very limited production supercars, like the Saleen, the new V10 Porsche and the Ferrari Enzo. The conclusion was that the current SRT would not be competitive with those cars and therefore Dodge "needed" a carbon tubbed car. I suggested the ACO could easily adjust the rules to realign cars and classes, leaving a place for the SRT. Those classes would look something like this:

LMP: Race cars (Audi R8, Lola, Riley & Scott, etc...)
GTS: Supercars (Saleen S7, Ferrari Enzo, Porsche V10 thing, etc...)
GT: Sports cars (Porsche 911, Dodge SRT, Corvette, etc...)

This allows eveybody to race against their marketplace peers.

 

[pitviper]

good points...i also think that it would not be such a bad thing if they were able to get the Viper into GT...as long as the vette was in the same class as well, just as mentioned...i think that it wouldn't neccessarily be such a bad thing for the basic rules of each (GTS and GT) class be the same, with the main difference being the price of the road car, that way, the big money manufacturers don't have to nworry as much about their class win being taken by a "cheaper" car, but that on the flip side, it'd still be completely possible for a well prepared GT car to run head to head with the GTS cars...would definetely make for some interesting racing, and the class structure would better reflect that of the real market structure, for example, the Viper can easily keep up with various supercars (lambo, ferrari, porsche, etc.) that cost WAY more, but are still seen many times as being in a different "market class" because of price, not neccessarily performance...i think that the ACO's classes should reflect that...who knows...i just want the Viper back and winning consistently again! lol

pit