Viper Days Matrix...

[Marv S]

With Viper Days you are grouped according to experience, not what mods your car has. For example, if your car has extensive mods and it's your first time at a track, you will be driving in a run group with the other rookies, even if they have a stock Viper. As you demonstrate better skills you advance to a different run group.

 

[Tom and Vipers]

Any opinions about the points system?

If I understand it correctly, your year total is your AVERAGE where you get an extra 1% for EACH EVENT you attend.

This makes TOTAL POINTS not very important.

I think there is a ancillary award for MOST POINTS, but the bias is strongly for AVERAGE.

I would have thought the biasing would have been opposite.

I think that people who make the pilgrimage should be handsomely rewarded! and further, Class Winners should be offered some incentive such as maybe $100 off the NEXT event, or perhaps a guaranteed starting grid position!

These little perks and biasing more towards total points might produce better attendance/revenue, however, it may be that the events are already mostly sold out! ...perhaps there could be support for MORE EVENTS!

Of course, I'm sure Skip and Courtney would love to put in twice as much time doing these events .........

 

[Skip at Viper Days]

AWESOME!!! This is the information and feedback that we need to improve Viper Days. Nothing is set in stone and we are open to constructive input on how to improve. We are looking at making revisions to the matrix to better the series.

Come one ...come all... your input is important.

If you have specific questions call me direct at 847-594-VIPR or [email protected].

Remember that seat time is critical to being a good, safe driver. Viper Days offers both a school and a track at which to get that seat time with our fellow snakes!

Hope to get your feedback,
Skip

 

[ACR Jim]

Chad,

Alan is right on but to clarify your original question of points...

A stock ACR is 5 points (3 for the car but you then add 2 for the Gen II Engine when looking at the matrix) The other items you listed I belive would bring you to a total of 11 points.

As was pointed out earlier, you will be grouped by experience but you compete for trophies by class. Bottom line is that you will learn how to drive the Viper better and you will be doing it in a very safe and well run environment at a Viper Days event. The extra bonus is that the people you will meet are great and the experience overall is a BLAST!

Be warned however...it is very addictive as many on this board can confirm

Jim

 

[Tom and Vipers]

A Discussion of Points and Awards

Event Awards:

You win an event, you get an award. Plain and simple. This is as it should be.

Regional Awards

The issue IS the people who have the time to attend and those that have other responsibilities! Currently, points average is used, however, total points could be argued, "To win regionally, you have to compete regionally." My opinion is that total points should be used.

National Championship

Invitation is good. I'm not sure how the winner is determined. Is the National Championship an "Event" Award or are total or average points used? This award may be used to promote either membership participation OR membership ability. I have no real opinion on this one.

High Points Winner

The Roy Sjoberg Perpetual Trophy is a good idea, however, here, high points is treated as a special award. It appears that there is but one and it can be awarded to any particular class. One might argue that THIS is the true national championship trophy!

My Opinion In General

The issue is total and average points. Right now there is the Sjoberg Trophy for total and compared to many, many trophies for average points.

I think, in general there should be more of an even bias between total and average points - or even biased towards total points.

I think there should be class distinction or perhaps points added/subtracted between trailered Vipers and those which were driven 1000 miles to an event. Consider that speed parts are considered an advantage so they are compensated for. Well, the thought that you have to drive your car home is a disadvantage that could be compensated for. Perhaps 1 point per 100 miles to get home....

Suggestion

Total Points: Trophies for first 3 places,
Average Points: Trophy for best in each class, and then best overall.

In Closing

Big Time Auto Racing, NASCAR, F1, NHRA is all about accumulating points. And special awards for achievement. ...but the bias is points accumulation.

There have to be rewards for total points (participation) and average points (achievement.)

 

[Tom and Vipers]

...oh, one adjustment for my suggestion for class and o/a best average points.

To win an average point award, you would have to attend at least 50% or 33% (subject to debate) of the Regions Events.

A percentage would be used incase there may be different numbers of events between the two Regions such as 4 versus 6 this year.

Another Thought

What about people who attend events in both Regions?

This one has me stumped. What about Total Points? ...Average Points?

Yet Another Thought

Iron Man Award for someone who attends all events. (Hummmmmmm.... Skip would end up with a bunch of these!)

Needless to say, there is a lot you can do with points!

(Just imagine the effect of driving your Viper 3000 miles to an event - wow, 30 points!)

 

[Tom and Vipers]

...ideas keep coming...

How about Lifetime Points? for Driver and for Car!

This would be neat because it would give awards to our Vipers!

What a thought! Our cars could participate along with us!

I am really in favor of this one!

"The Winningest Viper in All Of Viperdom!"

Kinda' like it!

 

[Skip at Viper Days]

Keep it coming. This is the information that need. We want more Viper owners to experience their cars on the track!! That is what we are all about. VCA & Viper Days want to develop more owners who have a better control of their Vipers. They are rocket ships straight off the production line!
Thanks TEAM VIPER & PVO!!
Skip

 

[Tom and Vipers]

Alan,

I've been thru the rules a couple of times and can't find this 1000 point bonus you're talking about.

If you get a chance, could you please tell me where it is?

Thanks
Tom

 

[FrankBarba]

its been along time since i've posted about Viper Days. AS far as the point matrix goes, don't get side tracked with the system of assessing points against your car. You have to decide what it is that you actually want to do? Do you want to drive against the clock only or do you want to race? This is a decision that only you can decide, i'm sure that there are alot of people that can help you make this decision, but you have to feel comfortable with your driving abilities. Dont do what i did. I got pi$$ed off at the constant rule changes and matrix changes that i sold my race viper only wishing that i kept it or had another one to take its place.

Trophys & points: A win is a win weather you have driven your viper to the track or you have towed (trailered) it. When i raced in this series you were given points & trophys. Trophys for 1 thru 3rd place,Points all the way down the line of finishers, weather you participated in the east coast series or the west coast series. I was the lucky person to win the very first Roy Sjoberg trophy (i wish i could have kept it), and to me it was a National Trophy, not just a trophy for showing up. It was very well deserved & earned. If you don't beleive me just ask Ron Mjsak JR.

I could see Viper days giving a discount on your next event or maybe even Michelin / Hoosier giving up a set of tires for the win just like they do in SCCA, or some of the other suppliers giving up some prize money or vouchers towards your next event (if you have the parts on your viper).

Even though i have sold my race viper and have moved on to racing a european neon (right hand drive)getting ready to make my pro debut in atlanta at the world challange series if all goes well. Skip is **** the best that he can do and your suggestions are always appreciated and listened to.

 

[Tom and Vipers]

Alan,

I finally fathomed out the Part 1 and 2 average point calculations you referred to.

I'm surprised that such a complicated average points system is used. It's basically a hybrid average/total points system! It is not too different from a simple (Average Points) x (Events Attended.)

Another system might be a Formula One approach. Someone like Pemberton could hang in there with 2 wins in 2 events because this system is heavily biased towards winning the race. (F1 awards 10, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1 pts for 1st thru 6th place. So a win is worth 10 6th place finishes!)

Bad thing with this is with all the Super Stock cars, so many people would have 0 points!

I just looked up SCCA points standings and it looks like they might use something like F1 because the points went from something like 60 to 0 in one particular class.

But whatever the rules are, they apply to everyone, and in that regard things are not too bad.

However, after thinking about this for a while, there is one thing that is not addressed in the rules and that is trailered versus driven cars. The trailered cars have a tremendous advantage over driven cars because they don't have to worry about saving the car to get them home.

I think this could be address because some of the smallest modifications are assessed points. What would a trailer be worth? 1, 2, or 5 points?

I am really looking forward to Watkins Glen - I hear it is a great track. Although my Heart belongs to Sebring!

 

[ACR Jim]

Tom,

I trailered mine this year. Last year the first event I attended was VIR, and I drove the car there.

I can tell you that I value my car enough that I don't risk it any more with a trailer than without.

The trailer allows me to bring the whole family along as many others do. But it also allows me to bring gear to do much of my own support of the car.

Jim

 

[Tom and Vipers]

You definitely have a point that trailer or not, the car is worth a bunch and you don't risk it regardless.

I think my perspective is that I'm 48 and definitely worry more than I did when I was younger! But frankly, I don't see trailering because I like to drive the car!

The only trailer application I have been thinking of is if I go to FL for say 3 months, I would take my conversion van and trailer my Viper. I don't know, 3 months using Viper as daily driver in FL..... gee, what am I thinking, what's wrong with that?

 

[Tom and Vipers]

You definitely have a point that trailer or not, the car is worth a bunch and you don't risk it regardless.

I think my perspective is that I'm 48 and definitely worry more than I did when I was younger! But frankly, I don't see trailering because I like to drive the car!

The only trailer application I have been thinking of is if I go to FL for say 3 months, I would take my conversion van and trailer my Viper. I don't know, 3 months using Viper as daily driver in FL..... gee, what am I thinking, what's wrong with that?

 

[FrankBarba]

if you drive your car to the track and it breaks down there is always someone that can help you get it back home. so the trailered vs driven is not a valid point. if you are worried about it breaking down rent a neon or rent someones viper...then you can still drive to the show in your own car...

 

[Frank Parise]

Gentlemen,

An enormous amount of thought went into the current points system and the calculations are extremely involved!

If you will please take the time to study the system and do some examples to see what the results are, I believe you will come to the following conclusion:

The system achieves a nice balance between being strictly participation-oriented or strictly achievement-oriented. For the record, Skip used to total all the points earned from all the events you attended and that was your score..the same as any other race series. When he did that, everybody whined that it was unfair and meaningless because only a few die-hards would attend all the events and the trophy was nothing more than an award for attendance. Since this ain't professional racing and every competitor does not show up for every race, Skip wanted to accomodate the 99% of his loyal participants that could only make 3 or 4 events per year (that's still alot of track events for a club racer, especially considering the enormous travel and expense involved). On the other hand, he wanted actual performance to play a key role too, so you wouldn't necessarily win a big trophy because you came to 12 events and finished dead last every time.

Part 1 points reward attendance. A 1% bonus is awarded for each event attended. This doesn't sound like much, but it is huge if there is a close points race going on.

Part 2 points is purely based on actual performance since it uses the average of your 3 best events. Of course you can't get any Part 2 points unless you have been to 4 races, so again, there is an element of attendance.

I believe the more you study the system, the more you will appreciate the thoughtfulness and see that it achieves a balance. While Skip wants to encourage maximum participation, he doesn't want to demoralize people who don't have the time or budget to come to all of the events. He also wants to reward winning.

If you come to most of the events and always win or on the podium, you'll get the reward you deserve. You have to attend and you have to perform! Under no circumstances is an award unearned or undeserved, regardless of what you think is most important.

 

[Skip at Viper Days]

Thank you Frank!! This is a great recap of what the system is all about. We have tried to be fair at all levels. The system works!! Thanks for all the input everyone!!
Skip

 

[Tom and Vipers]

That history lesson was greatly appreciated.

I do agree that if the total points system basically made it into an attendance thing, that wasn't right either.

I guess my latest thinking is that with a Formula One system which heavily favors winning, you could easily attend all the events and end up with zero points.

Further if a person got 3 or 4 wins, they would be hard to beat!

I don't know what SCCA uses but I looked at a class and it looked like there was an even distribution of points from 60 all the way to 0.

I was wondering, when total points were tallied were the event points determined pretty much the way they are today?

Boy, I wish there would have been room for me at Putnam. After Road America, there is this hunger.....

 

[Tom and Vipers]

A past points experience....

The very first time/distance ralley I ever did was the navigator of my friends Studebaker Avanti as we represented the Studebaker Driver's Club at the Pittsburgh Vintage Gran Prix Road Ralley.

Neither of us had ever done a ralley, and although I have a BS in math and ME in mech eng, I had no idea how to manage our time.

About 30 min before we went out, a friend said check your mileage every minute and correct accordingly. If you're very good, do it every 30 seconds.

So I figured I could handle 30 seconds.

Well to make a long story short, we made one wrong turn within visual range of the check point and obtained a 9 minute penalty.

This was the 1st of 3 checkpoints. The 2nd one we were off something like 10 seconds and the third we were off 3 seconds.

We got all the stupid trick questions.

The bottom line was that we finished in the middle of the pack w/o any distinction.

If we had made the correct turn, we may have beaten the winner of the ralley - seasoned SCCA members with dual stopwatchs..... and would have been guaranteed at least a Place or Show.

But the way the points worked, we got nothing. We got nothing for an extremely good navigation job not to mention the cleverness needed to get the questions.

The bottom line was, we didn't win, and changing the rules to "minimize" our 9 minute penalty really didn't amount to anything since no matter what the change, we blew it and couldn't have won.

There is a big difference between 1st and 2nd place. And I think the points should reflect that. 1000 -vs- 998 is way too close. This again leads me to the F1 approach...

This stuff is just my opnion and the way Viper Days are is fine with me! These are wonderful events and I'm going to attend as many as I can because I enjoy them. I like to get my lap times so I can improve my skills. I would like to get my lap times as I do them, but I guess there is stuff I can buy to do this - I will eventually.

Can't wait for Watkins Glen... sure wished I could have made it to Putnam - it turns out my business in NV could have been adjusted to make Putname - and that really disappointed me.

 

[K Adelberg]

Jeff,
You are too kind. I would love to, but this year has not been the best for my company. Not sure if I'll make Pahrump. Although if your tire offer stands for Pahrump, I will not make a fool out of you. OK, quote from Days of Thunder. Thought it would be fitting. Anyway, still convinced I have a creampuff.

 

[BWoodbury]

Ya that's it Ken. It's the car. It certainly could not be the driver.

 

[K Adelberg]

Viper Days is a great group of people and I have many friendships I cherish from these events. Anyone with a Viper should attend. You don't need any skill, just attend and let the Viper Days staff help you.

With regard to the matrix, I think Skip should adjust it for those with the "Creampuff" Vipers. We are at least 15hp down, and **** those "straight-aways".

WAR CREAMPUFFS!!!!

 

[K Adelberg]

Well, B Woodblury thinker... You can be a great driver and be quick, but a fresh set of tires will only improve things. Come out west where men play and I'll be happy to show you in your own car, which you know well, what I'm talking about.

Jeff, let me know if you will be at Pahrump and I will take you up on your very generous offer.

 

[FrankBarba]

let the smack begin....

 

[BWoodbury]

HEMI,

I would never claim to drive or lay the smack down like the esteemed Mr. Addeledberg. I was just hoping for some distracting smack, and well frankly, I was just given much to much of an easy shot.

Rest assured Kenny that I am not yet ready to come out and play with the men on the West coast. First of all I have always prefered to play with women, and secondly I have not yet graduated from the school of orange cones. Maybe next year sonny.