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Vipers and the 10,000 mile threshold

Discussion in 'RT/10 and GTS Discussions' started by agentf1, Mar 7, 2007.

  1. agentf1

    agentf1 Viper Owner

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    As we all know Vipers seem to be easier to sell and everybody want them with under 10k on them for some reason. As the years go on obviously they are getting harder to find and fewer of them are around. I am seeing a lot of cars that people are dumping at 9500 thru 9900 miles obviously trying to get the bigger bucks before they hit 10 grand mark. As a rough guidline in some cases I noticed that they almost seem to drop a dollar for every mile you drive them over 10k, e.g a car with 20,000 sells for around 45 to 50 and its counterpart with 5 to 10k miles on it would sell for 55 to 60. Of course there is exceptions to the rule but watching prices I have made this observation more than once or twice.

    Do you think that this stigma or whatever you want to call it will ever change. For instance in 5 years do you think the magic number for gen I and gen II cars will be 20k? I would like to think this number has to go up or people are not going to find cars or will people still want the 10k cars but these will be the ones going for 75 to 100 and the 20k cars will be going for 50 to 75. Not saying those numbers are accurate just using them as an example.

    Personally I think the gen III and gen IV cars are going to somewhat dictate the prices of the older cars since there comes a point when you say for yada yada amount I could be in a new one, screw this.

    I would love to hear all of your opinions on this. I hate to say it but this is the one thing I hate about the car. One of the things that attracted me to the Viper is how they hold there value compared to the Vettes but then the vettes don't become undesirable until 50k.
     
  2. C O D Y

    C O D Y Enthusiast

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    I thought you found your car at BJ's? Why didn't you take it?

    If you're worried about miles... buy a new one. You can still find many Gen 2's with under 1,000 miles. What are you waiting for? Buy one and enjoy it as much as you can. You'll never look back. Right now you are missing so much by not having a viper.
     
  3. ViperJohn

    ViperJohn Enthusiast

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    Personally, I would never want to buy and Viper to drive if it had been driven under 1000 miles per year. When I was looking, I found used Vipers with only 2200 miles that were in bad shape, I found higher mileage cars that looked as good as new.

    Worrying about resale to the point of not driving the car for enjoyment is stupid. If you find the car you want, drive it, enjoy it. The car is not an investment, you will most likely loose money if you ever decide to sell it.

    And I also think you are wrong, Gen 3/4 values will have no effect on Gen 1/2 prices. If anything, the Gen 3 helped increase the value of the Gen 2's. When people get an image of what a Viper looks like, they generally will think Red RT/10 or Blue/White stripes GTS due to the timelines/classic lines of the car.

    Coincidentally, the Blue/White GTS's hold their value better than any other GTS. I think the only reason the early Red RT/10's don't is because they offered red every year the Viper has been made.

    The Graphite/silver GTS you are looking for is a striking combo. Find it, buy it, mod it and then drive it.
     
  4. doctorbob

    doctorbob VCA Member - UT/AZ

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    I agree with ViperJohn. I am at one of the extremes when it comes to owning and driving a viper. My current 03 SRT10 has 55,000 miles and it, like the four vipers I have had before it, gets good care and gets driven for enjoyment. One of life's pleasures is taking a viper up Highway 1 from Paseo Robles to Seattle. Try it. These cars are not investments. Buy what you want and drive it. You will never be down this road again and I ,for one, wish to have no regrets.
     
  5. PDCjonny

    PDCjonny Enthusiast

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    Don't bother even buying one if your going to drive with one eye on the odometer. You will never enjoy the car. Maybe you need to reevaluate why you want a Viper in the first place. Your not buying a retirement nest egg.
     
  6. Tom F&L GoR

    Tom F&L GoR Viper Owner

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    Does mileage matter on a '65 Shelby Cobra?

    87K and adding... I have to pay someone to take it.
     
  7. agentf1

    agentf1 Viper Owner

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    No, I do not see this as an investment and do plan on driving it as much as I can which probably won't be much. I am guessing I will put about 1 or 2000 miles a year on it. My only point being if I can get a car with under 10k chances are after a few years it will still have under 10k and will have held its value real well. Lets face it,we all want are cars to hold their values. This is quite obvious by what some of the gen II sellers are asking. Actually, I think some of the sellers think they invested in Pork Bellies. ;)

    BJ's Graphite car is sold. If anpther one just like it comes along with a few less owners it will be mine.
     
  8. slaughterj

    slaughterj Enthusiast

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    Not from my experience. When I bought my 98 in 01, the owner had only put ~1000 miles on it in 1.5 years, thus it went from ~3700 miles to ~4800 miles. But I paid him $10k less than he paid to buy it, so it cost him about $3/mile, and that's already considering he had bought it used and the guy before him had taken the "drive it off the lot" hit. That's a much steeper drop than anybody trying to sell one approaching 10k miles and worrying about losing a buck a mile.
     
  9. rcdice

    rcdice Enthusiast

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    My .02

    1. A "responsible" car collector and one that truly enjoys cars (vs. bragging rights or as an investment) will drive each car about 500 miles per year. To enjoy the car and to keep everything mechanical moving, lubricated etc. The older a car gets with next to no miles on it, the more gremlins that may be lurking. If the car is not going to be driven, ever, then yes, low miles will help hold value.

    2. Let's look at your numbers: Buy a 02 Graph/striped GTS <5k miles for $55k. Drive it for five years, put 3,000 miles a year on it, keep it in great shape, then sell it for $40k. That's $3k per year of depreciation to "drive" an exotic. $250 a month. Are you kidding me? Where else are you going to find that? AND, if you keep it in great shape, I'll bet you'll get more than $40k in five years w/20k miles. AND, maintenance costs are a fraction of other "exotics".

    3. My car has less than 7k miles on it. I drove it 744 miles last year (stored for the winter right now). The low miles are more as a result of me wanting to keep it squeeky clean and time. As I get older, I'm 40, I'm realizing more and more that life is really just a collection of memories. What do you do when you see old friends? Talk, remenice and laugh about things you did or experienced together. My goal for the 07 driving season? Drive the damn thing more, enjoy it, make the time and if it has to be detailed a few extra times, so be it.

    In summary, if you are going to keep it long term, the miles don't matter. If you are going to drive it for several years and sell it, the numbers aren't that bad. If you feel you have to break even or make money on the car, don't buy it.
     
  10. Chuck 98 RT/10

    Chuck 98 RT/10 Enthusiast

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    On the other hand, what will the value be of the first Viper to reach 500,000 miles? :)
     
  11. TAXIMAN1

    TAXIMAN1 Viper Owner

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    Let me put this in perpective for you. I had a 2005 Mercedes-Benz E55, that had a list price 24 months ago of $96,750. I just sold it for $52,000. I also had an 02' Z06 which tanked in value. So... even if this is the case. Were all doing pretty well compared to most other cars out there..


    Come one man, buy something already...
     
  12. agentf1

    agentf1 Viper Owner

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    Yes, I don't expect to make money on the car but I also do not expect to lose my socks on it like I would if I bought a new Z06. Seeing the value of my current Z06 is one of the things that convinced me to go the Viper route this time.

    The way I see it is if I can get one with say 6k on it. I will probably drive it about 1k a year providing my schedule and I still have my Z06. In 3 or 4 years if I decide that I do want to sell it which I am guessing I won't, I could probably get most if not all my money back. I could not do that with a new Z06 and I am sure I would have just as much fun. That is a pretty good investment. An investment in fun that is.

    Although I have to say that most of the ACR owners and GTS sellers are trying to tell me I am buying Barret Jacksons next hot car and that is why I should give them 5k over market. ;) There is a guy in Florida asking 67 for his GTS. :eek:
     
  13. V10SpeedLuvr

    V10SpeedLuvr Enthusiast

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    I paid $31,900 for my 96' RT/10 w/51k on it in April of 2005. It now has 69,800 on it. Whats it worth? I have no idea and dont care :) But I will sell for $50k should someone want it ;)
     
  14. Les Quam

    Les Quam Viper Owner

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    The Viper being a big block ,American, hand built in small volume iconic car will be the next hot car at BJ, in the year 2028 perhaps?

    In the meantime premium documented no story muscle cars built in small quantities with a racing heritage will be appreciating and bring silly money at BJ.

    Buy the Viper you like now and enjoy it, it still depreciates less than a Vette, Porsche 911, and a Mercedes. Dodge provides unprecedented factory and dealer support and the activities to enjoy in the Viper nation are unparalled in the industry.
     
  15. Lee00blacksilverGTS

    Lee00blacksilverGTS Viper Owner

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    The prices of Gen1 and 2 will continue to appreciate as the miles will inevitably rise on them all.
    The last thing a buyer at BJ cares about when bidding on a 1967 Big Block Corvette is the miles. Originality and condition, that's all they care about and that is all that will matter 20 years down the road.
    I've been shopping seriously for one of those for two years, probably spend 10 minutes every other day checking several sites trying to catch a new listing. I can't recall ever looking at the mileage.
    History will repeat itself with this issue. Gen 2 Vipers in particular will be the next mid year Corvettes, and it will not matter a whit if they have 10,000 or 50,000 on them 20 years out. Originality and condition. Originality won't matter either if you save those Heffner and Doug Levin receipts. Those cars will be the new Yenkos and Baldwin Motion cars.
     
  16. wastntim

    wastntim Enthusiast

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    When I bought my 02 RT in october of last year it had 1,500 miles on it. By the time it went into storage I had already doubled the miles. Most miles were spent in my drive through Michigan to pick up my rear spoiler and my three piece top :2tu: . When I bought the car, I fully intended on buying it to drive it. That doesn't mean I didn't cringe a little each time I passed a 500mile milestone. :rolleyes: Just something about buying a car that is four years old that's never been driven through a puddle, but it has now!
     
  17. D.K.

    D.K. Viper Owner

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    I agree. A Hemi Cuda is going to bring serious coin at BJ weather it has 5K or 200K miles. The difference in 20 years at BJ on a typical GTS ACR Viper could be $20-100K(low mileage queen vs. one that had been enjoyed). But who cares! I would rather have put those 200K miles on that ACR myself and get $700K vice $800K, or 1.1 mil instead of 1.3 mil.

    :usa:

    :usa:
     
  18. Finally got it !

    Finally got it ! Viper Owner

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    What are we talking about here?? 5k to 10k in price points. If you are worried about every nickel and dime then a Viper is just not for you. If my wife knew how I spent on mods alone I would be living in my garage.
    I let my 98 go a few years ago with 35k + miles and it ran as good as it did when coming off the showroom floor. Don't let a couple of spinning numbers shape your automotive future.
     
  19. PDCjonny

    PDCjonny Enthusiast

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    Absolutely. If you are looking down the road at getting a couple extra grand *maybe* when you trade in the car by not driving it much, your not financially ready to be buying it.
     
  20. C O D Y

    C O D Y Enthusiast

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    Wow. Someome finally said it. :eek:

     
  21. agentf1

    agentf1 Viper Owner

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    Well if I don't buy the GTS I will just replace my Z with a C6 Z06 which will probably drop 25g in a few years so I seriously doubt that this is the case. Just like the next guy I like selling my cars for close to what I paid for them but this no way drives my decision.

    I just have always wondered about this magic number where everybody wants to buy there Viper with under 10k. Why is this?

    Sure resale comes into play in the decision but it comes after the cars incredibly good looks and not wanting to see myself/same car 5 times at the cruise night I am at etc etc... Resale is lower on my list of concerns but high on my curiosity list.

    So I will ask again, why does everybody want Vipers with under 10k? Are people afraid the miles are put on 1/4 mile at a time or all track miles? Under the impression that they fall apart or can't go 100,000 miles like most other cars? I have been around here long enough to know they are very reliable and durable cars that don't require expensive tune ups at any interval etc but somehow, somewhere the car got this stigma that people should not drive them or they become undesirable. Why? I will drive this sucker as much as I can when I get it which unfortunately won't be that much. I usually do about 2 or 3k a year in my pleasure cars.
     
  22. danfromohio

    danfromohio Enthusiast

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    When I start looking for my first Viper in a couple of years, mileage will be a distant secondary concern to me. Mechanical condition will be number one. Once I have one, I will be a withered old man before I would be willing to get rid of it, so resale at that point will not matter to me. It will likely matter more to my next of kin as I will hopefully die with it in my garage.
     
  23. Les Quam

    Les Quam Viper Owner

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    IMHO mileage is secondary to owner history. I would buy a 25,000 mile Viper from the original owner who knows the car from day one rather than a 2500 mile Viper that had passed between 8 owners 4 dealers and 3 brokers, where nobody knew the actual history of the car. Buying from a dealer you trust who will stand behind the car and knows how to buy a correct Viper is also a consideration for me. I will pay more for a car if I trust the dealer or the car has a verifiable owner history with the previous owners being reliable.

    Mileage can also be misleading. I have seen 3000 original mile muscle cars that needed complete resto's and 30,000 mile cars that looked like they just rolled off the assembly line based on the way the were cared for and driven over the years and the respective climates. Some of the Vipers I have owned and sold in the past were low mile garage queens and some were low mile track queens with the low mileage accumulated one lap at a time.
     
  24. KenH

    KenH Enthusiast

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    If driving enjoyment and minimum depreciation are the main concerns, then I would think a nicely maintained higher mileage car is going to be the best deal for you. The mileage depreciation has already been taken and it won't go down much further. My '01 has 30K miles on it and I have much more confidence in its future reliability than if I picked up a 2K mile '98 or something. There is nothing on these cars that magically breaks at 10K, 20K or 30K miles.

    On the other hand, if you buy a nice low milage car, you will pay more up front for it, and watch it depreciate more with added mileage when you go from say 5K to 15K miles and you are going to worry about those miles as you put them on instead of enjoying the car. This path only makes sense to me if you are planning on storing it for 20 years with those low miles on it in the hopes that it goes up in value, but I don't think that sounds like your plan.

    And as pointed out above, if (when) the Viper becomes a classic and you still happen to own yours, the mileage will probably have relatively little affect on the value.
     
  25. Mopar488

    Mopar488 Viper Owner

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    I have to admit I used to be torn over the 10K mile limit; however, I now have a 96 B/W that I bought with 8700 miles on it that is now over the "magical 10K" mark. My first Viper had 1500 miles on it and it sat in the garage as a queen for nearly 3 years prior to selling it. It was 5 years old with 5500 miles on it when I sold it. Was it worth it? No. I am enjoying the 96 B/W and quite frankly, I will drive it when ever the urge hits me now. I know if I am fortunate enough to live for 20 more years, the mileage won't matter if it is up for sale. If I had the bucks to buy a Hemi Cuda or Superbird now that was original, mileage would be a secondary consideration. I am planning to pass my Viper on to my 12 year old daughter as an heirloom after my time is done here and hopefully it will make her life easier. :headbang:
     
  26. PDCjonny

    PDCjonny Enthusiast

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    I bought my Viper with 9K on it two years+ ago. It's a 98, so that made it six years old at the time. It had only one owner, private individual. Checking car fax and service records, the first year they put on 3-4K, then only 1K or so there after. Sounded like the ideal car to me, one owner, no mileage, perfect.

    Wrong.

    The previous owner apparently didn't know how to shift the car. Within a year I had to have the tranny rebuilt as several gears were lost, and a new clutch, flywheel etc installed by Chuck Tator. Than I had an oil leak from the timing chain cover, which almost cost me a fortune to have fixed as it was misdiagnosed by a Viper "tech" before I got it to the Wizard. All of this out of pocket as was no Dodge extended warranty available for a '98. The point is low miles means nothing. I wish I had a car with 25K on it that was maintained and driven correctly than my 9K low mileage money pit.
     
  27. Chuck 98 RT/10

    Chuck 98 RT/10 Enthusiast

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    I think it is because it is a nice safe number. If it hasn't been driven much then most likely it hasn't be driven hard. As durable as Vipers are they are still capable of getting ragged out by some numbnut that doesn't know how to drive spiritedly and at the same time save their equipment - which is the way most leadfoots are.

    I've got over 105K on my RT/10 and I'd bet it is still in better condition both mechanically and aesthetically than most Vipers with half the miles.
     
  28. 97 B/W GTS

    97 B/W GTS Viper Owner

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    Everybody wants a car with as low miles as possible (Putting aside the issue of not driving an older enough to keep the mechanicals moving). Lower miles just means there is that much more life in the car.

    It's weird that some place an emphasis on the 10K number as a threshold for low miles vs. not low miles. But the line has to be drawn somewhere. It is just a number. Is there a a difference between buying something for $9.99 instead of $10.00?

    When I was shopping for my Viper, I looked for one with under 10K. It was my threshold. Found mine with 8700 miles on it. As it got closer to the 10,000 mark, I was thinking, "oh no it's getting closer". Don't know why. It's just a number. I'm glad that I'm past it now though. I don't care how many miles I put on it now.

    I'm with everyone else, I'm just enjoying it. It's not a $$ investment for me. It's an investment in me enjoying my life.
     
  29. agentf1

    agentf1 Viper Owner

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    I am sure the same thing will happen to me.
     
  30. VENOMAHOLIC

    VENOMAHOLIC Viper Owner

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    Under 10k miles is for most people almost as good as new. Even if it has been beat on by the original owners, the car and engine especially are designed to handle <(some)> punishment. In reality condition is more important of course and have a Viper tech check out the car if possible before buying.

    My suggestion is not to wait because Gen II Vipers are really at their low point now in price. Replacement parts were always expensive and are already getting rare in some cases. Remember that only about 2k per year are produced so the local junkyard will not have a taillight.

    I also suggest to get one asap because you are missing out on a priceless driving experience. An uncle of mine who was a role model died last year. He let me test drive his brand new Corvettes since I was able to drive. I was able to hand him the keys to my Viper 2 years ago and that was a memory that will be cherished forever.

    Good Luck :2tu:
     

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