Why so much difference in S/C prices???

[BACKNBLACK]

Not to knock tuners down, but why so much differece in price from the SR system??The system creates 150 additional ponies and goes for only $7,000..With 9 hours of labor. You are talking about a car which will have 600 ponies for around $7,000....Can someone shed some light on this??

 

[BADVENOM]

If your referring to the Sean Roe vs other SC that are not bolt ons than you have your answer. The other high boost SC system aka Heffner and DLM both do extensive other mods to fuel and many other system ala adding intercooler etc.. Its kind of comparing apples and oranges from my conversations with both tuners when I was inquiring for my own car."

The proof is in the pudding"

IMHO

Adam

 

[Dr Roof]

Well said!

with all tuners you will get what you pay for!

 

[BlueGTS]

If price is your only determining factor, you should get the Roe kit.

 

[BACKNBLACK]

No Aaron its not.I just wanted toknow why the difference.

 

[V10 MOJO]

also; look closely, ive been considering a SC system for over a year now and they are all ultimately about the same cost for the output. you say roe is only 7k BUT; its recommended to do headers, complete exhaust, t&d rollers, TBs, airbox, etc to get what roe advetises; that ends up about 12-14k roughly and thats not including install at the dealer unless your a guru in the garage Like Larry M so i hear). ok, so 12-14k well, heffner is now right around the corner and its intercooled, oh wait just around that bend is DLM custom, intercooled and balls out the bomb. i agree, you get what you pay for but if looking strictly at performance theyre all about even in cost eventually and IMO (never humble) all are damnn good, its nothing more than preference and location

 

[MES]

Another thing to consider is many people already have some upgrades - headers, exhaust, etc. So if you start from scratch the cost may be close but for your average Viper with pre-existing upgrades the Roe Blower is a good value.

Also consider real world performance and racing (1/4 mile) results not just dyno numbers.

 

[Joseph Dell]

And on _yet_ the other hand, my DLM stage 1 + was pushing 700 to the tires with stock headers, stock heads, and stock just about everything else. Now the Level II will be a bit more, but apples to apples on the basic set-ups, you'll find the DLM to be a _greater_ value than some of the bolt-on kits.

How can that be if the cost is a little more? If I made a list of all the things Doug did to my car during the level I setup, I'd have 3 pages of notes! DLM wants you to be happy with the car and he's going to pay attention to every _little_ detail to make sure that you get more than what you expect.

Now if a finely tuned high HP machine isn't what you want... you just want to be around 550-600 at the tires, then a kit will probably work for you. But will you be 550? or 600? And is the kit tuned specificly for your combination? I blew up 3 mustang motors with "kits" before I programmed my own fuel curves.

the ROE kit is pretty sharp, but if I had to do it all over again, I'd go with DLM every day of the week and twice on sunday.

Just my .02...

JD

 

[Sean Roe]

....they are all ultimately about the same cost for the output. you say roe is only 7k BUT; its recommended to do headers, complete exhaust, t&d rollers, TBs, airbox, etc to get what roe advetises; that ends up about 12-14k roughly and thats not including install at the dealer unless your a guru in the garage Like Larry M so i hear)......

Hi Rich,

You are mistaken.

The standard 5 psi system does not require any other mods to produce a 125 rear wheel HP gain (about 25 RWHP per psi just like the other kits). Check the customer dyno sheets posted on this site. You will find that 2000 and newer cars with smooth tubes, filters (already done on most cars) produce around 540 rear wheel HP ( +/- a couple) at 5psi. Modified motors and those running our smaller pulley / bigger injectors ($12 each injector to upgrade at time of purchase plus a fuel pump voltage booster for $199) obviously make more.

We have sent out 97 kits since September. The majority of these kits were installed by private individuals in their garages. It takes most people 7 to 8 hours to install their kits. It is a direct bolt on. It does not take a Guru to install.

Granted, we did have our share of little things to learn and overcome in the first production runs. But, our tech calls are virtually non existent now that we have improved the installation directions (making note of how to improve the factory injector connectors and grounds), added an easy to understand troubleshooting guide and completed the updates to the VEC2's.

We, and our customers, are very open and honest about the supercharger kit, in regard to the good and bad. The good has been good and the bad has mainly been little nagging things that we have now overcome. I just wish some of the other shops and customers were as open and honest about their kits. I shake my head when I see someone post on this thread about how much they like their "other style" SC, even though their car has been at the tuners shop for months since it lost pistons and had to go back for repairs and upgrades.


I regard to headers and all the other items that make more power, they add more power to all cars and SC kits. It's not just the Roe Racing Supercharged engines that benefit from headers and such. On a HP / dollar basis, the SC alone is a much better bang for the buck.

Finally, regarding price. That's a good question. How come ours isn't more expensive since we're supplying more custom machined parts, intake manifold, computer system and components? Heck, we send out 112 pounds in parts, all seperately boxed and packaged. Maybe we should raise our prices?

Regards,
Sean

 

[Sean Roe]

And on _yet_ the other hand, my DLM stage 1 + was pushing 700 to the tires with stock headers, stock heads, and stock just about everything else. ....
JD

JD,
Is this the same dyno run you're referring to? The one with 8-9 psi and alcohol injection on the stage 1? It was the dyno run from October 2001.

You must be registered for see images

 

[GONABITE]

MES,

Very well said , how about real world performance 1/4 mile times. I don't see any other tuners cars with just the S/C and other bolt on mods doing much better than 2 tenths in the 1/4 than the Roe S/C. So for the many extra thousands of dollars to gain those 2 tenths I will call Tom Welch and pick up some N2O for a grand and be in the 9's.

 

[matt lankford]

a little birdy told me there is a TT kit coming with pricing under the teens.

 

[malcoll]

.............. Heck, we send out 112 pounds in parts, all seperately boxed and packaged. Maybe we should raise our prices?

Regards,
Sean

I think you should raise the Gen II kit price by $3,000 and bring out the Gen I kit at a $4,000 price point!

Lance

 

[Chuck B 98 GTS]

I think the twin screw diy bolt-on for the newer vipers are the best bang for the buck. If you own a viper with a warranty you just bolt on the blower and when the engine blows up you pull the sc system off like nobody's business and get dodge to flip the tab. Heck....you could even sell the unit on ebay.

I just wish tuners would be more honest instead of acting like a PENIS PUMP SALESMAN....."I dont understand it, it worked for everybody else???????"

 

[ronviper]

I thought someone with a Roe supercharger, heads, cam, headers and exhaust run 10.37. The best to date i have seem with the big dollar systems is 10.1's to 10.20. That makes the Roe charger one HE-L-L OF A DEAL, for dollars spent. I have warranty on my car and the dealer said he would honour it with the Roe charger, that said the dealer has helped me out many times. I am NOT STATING IT IS WARRANTY LEAGAL. Most vipers with the big power cann't use it anyway on the street without severe traction problems, so in most cases your playing catch up until you hook. Point is for the street and every day use the ROE IS BEST BANG FOR THE BUCK.

 

[Sean Roe]

I think the twin screw diy bolt-on for the newer vipers are the best bang for the buck. If you own a viper with a warranty you just bolt on the blower and when the engine blows up you pull the sc system off like nobody's business and get dodge to flip the tab. Heck....you could even sell the unit on ebay.

I just wish tuners would be more honest instead of acting like a PENIS PUMP SALESMAN....."I dont understand it, it worked for everybody else???????"

Don't hold back Chuck.
I have no problem with all my cards being shown on the table.
I'd like to see everyone else do the same. Obviously, I hear a lot of talk about other SC tuners having cars overheat, loose pistons, etc, only to go back for upgrades and repairs at the same time. Let's hear what's going on with everyone else. I'd like to know if there are really a bunch of cars in for repairs at these shops or not. People might as well hear the good and bad with all of them. That way they can take these items into consideration before spending their money and shipping the car off for months +.

I know of a three cars that have had engine problems in the past 6 months since our SC kit was installed. You're referring to the GTS that dropped a valve. This was the same engine that had .120" too long of pushrods installed by the owner's Limo mechanic. He had never installed 1.7 rockers from Arrow on a Viper engine. Do you think that had something to do with the valve failing? I would mention the owners name and e-mail so you and others could confirm this, but as you said, his car is under warranty and I don't want to cause any problems for him. Though the SC can't cause a valve to fail, the dealer probably wouldn't find it that way.

Regards,
Sean

 

[cratica]

I for one, am thankful for Sean Roe and the few others like him. In an industry where owners (like me) are expected to pay 15x what everyone else pays for their products, we have a few honest and decent people working hard to create great products at reasonable prices.

This makes some people uncomfortable.

1) Those tuners who charge whatever price they want for engine/performance upgrades. They now have competition and if the lower cost tuners succeed, this seriously hurts their ability to market their products for the standard 1500% viper markup.

2) Those car owners who paid the 1500% markup thinking they got their moneys
worth. Now, if they see something close to what they got, yet at a price point that is a fraction of what they paid, they seem to have a need to justify their purchase. They do this by ripping the lower cost products and over-exaggerating the benefits of their high dollar one.


If you purchased a $30,000 blower or spent $125,000 on a full upgrade and are
happy doing so, then great! Just don't knock other tuners when they can provide
the same products (or even better) for a fraction of the cost.

 

[RedGTS]

Assuming my info is good one of the other two was caused by a run down the dragstrip with the VEC1 settings backward (again a user error). So what happened with the third one?

 

[Shelby3]

I for one, am thankful for Sean Roe and the few others like him. In an industry where owners (like me) are expected to pay 15x what everyone else pays for their products, we have a few honest and decent people working hard to create great products at reasonable prices.

This makes some people uncomfortable.

1) Those tuners who charge whatever price they want for engine/performance upgrades. They now have competition and if the lower cost tuners succeed, this seriously hurts their ability to market their products for the standard 1500% viper markup.

2) Those car owners who paid the 1500% markup thinking they got their moneys
worth. Now, if they see something close to what they got, yet at a price point that is a fraction of what they paid, they seem to have a need to justify their purchase. They do this by ripping the lower cost products and over-exaggerating the benefits of their high dollar one.


If you purchased a $30,000 blower or spent $125,000 on a full upgrade and are
happy doing so, then great! Just don't knock other tuners when they can provide
the same products (or even better) for a fraction of the cost.

Lot of good points here.........

 

[Joseph Dell]

Sean -

No. That was an old Level I set-up that I shared with you in order to help you figure out some targets for your kit.

That was back in the day when you were being civil to me on-line. I don't know who sat on your birthday cake, but please direct that aggression elsewhere. I've never slammed your setup nor your cars. So chill the *#@! out.

My old kit is what it is. It was 3 years old, 560hp with nothing but stock _everything_. No alcohol injection and 7-8 lbs of boost.

Once an intercooler was added, this was 700rwhp. That is why I talk about it in terms of a Level I+ and not the old Level I.

You can't buy a Level I with the set-up I had anymore because that setup is obsolete.

JD

 

[Sean Roe]

Assuming my info is good one of the other two was caused by a run down the dragstrip with the VEC1 settings backward (again a user error). So what happened with the third one?

Hi Ronnie,
Yes, you're correct about #2.
Regarding #3, I was told very briefly of it by the owner in an e-mail. He was responding to our VEC2 update letter. He said he had "piston trouble" before they installed the MSD Boost retard (this was one of the first introductory run kits in October, before the VEC2, so it had no timing retard). Considering it was a California car with cast pistons on 91 octane and no timing retard, it may have compressed one of the top ring lands due to detonation. But, the owner didn't say anything else about it other than that, and it was being repaired, so I'm just speculating. It may have been something else.

That's the extent of our engine problems. All our cards are on the table, now who else?

Regards,
Sean
(not a salesman trying to talk anybody out of, or into something)

 

[Shelby3]

Assuming my info is good one of the other two was caused by a run down the dragstrip with the VEC1 settings backward (again a user error). So what happened with the third one?

Hi Ronnie,
Yes, you're correct about #2.
Regarding #3, I was told very briefly of it by the owner in an e-mail. He was responding to our VEC2 update letter. He said he had "piston trouble" before they installed the MSD Boost retard (this was one of the first introductory run kits in October, before the VEC2, so it had no timing retard). Considering it was a California car with cast pistons on 91 octane and no timing retard, it may have compressed one of the top ring lands due to detonation. But, the owner didn't say anything else about it other than that, and it was being repaired, so I'm just speculating. It may have been something else.

That's the extent of our engine problems. All our cards are on the table, now who else?

Regards,
Sean
(not a salesman trying to talk anybody out of, or into something)

Sean, I've always liked your attitude of openness and customer satisfaction. I sent you a e-mail with questions regarding specifics of my car. Keep up what you are doing in regards to bringing quality products at a fair price to the Viper community.

 

[Sean Roe]

Sean -

No. That was an old Level I set-up that I shared with you in order to help you figure out some targets for your kit.

That was back in the day when you were being civil to me on-line. I don't know who sat on your birthday cake, but please direct that aggression elsewhere. I've never slammed your setup nor your cars. So chill the *#@! out.

My old kit is what it is. It was 3 years old, 560hp with nothing but stock _everything_. No alcohol injection and 7-8 lbs of boost.

Once an intercooler was added, this was 700rwhp. That is why I talk about it in terms of a Level I+ and not the old Level I.

You can't buy a Level I with the set-up I had anymore because that setup is obsolete.

JD

Hi Joseph,
Are we not still being civil? We're only talking about cars here.
Nobody sat on my birthday cake and I'm not trying to sell Austin Powers Penis Pumps .
Just making sure we're on the same page.
Thanks for the clarification of the old Level 1 and new Level 1+. Either way you look at it, it's good power.

Regards,
Sean

 

[varanus]

The bottom line is that everyone here is probably a loyalist to the tuner who sc their car. When Sean came out with the sc kit everyone was so excited to have a lower cost option (look at all the old posts) Now people still went to Levin and others because it was what they wanted (generally higher power and a work of art)
Sean's kit filled a niche that was unfulfilled. Anytime you send out a kit you run the risk of having more problems because you can't control the install or the skill/knowledge of the customer. So of course you will hear more negative feedback. Sure the kit was new and was bound to have some quirks and being #4 Roe SC I certainly had my share of them. Still for the price I haven't seen anything tangible come out that can compete. I've seen many announcements here and there only to never be heard from again.
I have said it before and I will say it again that I have had several issues with the sc, but Sean has been incredible in support and it is pretty much running well now. The bottom line is even after my problems if someone asked me if I would buy the roe blower again I would still say yes. Performance is great and is backed up by first class support. Out of all the vendors I have worked with, Sean has been the best at returning calls and customer follow up.
Now would I get a Levin or Heffner set up? If I had the funds it is certainly a possibility, but the currently the Roe Sc setup was my only option. For those of us out west, to send a car to these guys don't forget to add another couple of grand for shipping the car to the tuners. This is a cost no one is factoring in when they are making comparisons.

Finally I have to say that the roe blower thread has pointed out some issues some good and some bad. Since every other thread about a tuner has only been positive, it is easy to think that the roe kit is a poor choice. But I know of a few of the tuner cars pushing 700 + hp from friends and acquaintances that have had problems too and have had to be shipped back to be worked on. I've even witnessed some of those cars having problems right before my eyes. None of those people posted about any of their problems whatsoever and I am not sure why they remained silent. The point is that all of these cars are running much more hp than stock and you are bound to have some problems with any of them, just the nature of the game.

 

[Dr Roof]

Hey Sean

At least when We drive our supercharged Cars they don;t detonate! Im not sure your in the right position to Dog any other Supercharger system until you get your customers 100% happy. I would rather wait for a fine tuned machine!

I think your product is great but notice how no other Supercharged Tuner will get on here and throw cheap shots! Maybe you can follow that example.

regards

 

[BigCarrot]

Sure is a nice day outside! Sorta hot in here!

 

[Chuck B 98 GTS]

I think great tuners like Sean should spend less time promoting his product via Internet and by poking at others with his semantics and spend more time trouble shooting, researching and developing his simple bolt-on product.

Chuck B.

 

[matt lankford]

ill take a 2k nitrous kit and beat all of you. with 600+ rwhp on the blower cars you cant use that all the time either, you need the road, the traction and the care-free attitude of not giving a crap if you get pulled over going tripple digits.

however, coming out of a 03 cobra where people are running 28 psi from their kenne belle blowers, how hard would it be to jack the boost up and do a front mount on the roe setup?

i still thing the birdie has the answer with the TT kit.

 

[RedGTS]

David, what did Sean say that is a cheap shot? There have been two or three threads recently talking about the different s/c systems & tuners, and invariably one of the "high-end" customers pops up and says something like you just did: "Well, our setups don't detonate, don't have problems, don't need to be tuned in the field or make the owners guinea pigs, etc." Putting to one side the fact that the number of Sean's s/c customers who currently have tuning issues is almost certainly a relatively small percentage of overall customers, and the fact that DIY sales virtually guarantees more customers with issues than if you limit your business to custom installations, Sean's point was that the premise of your post and others like it (i.e., that all the high-end installs are running perfectly and don't break) is false. If you know Sean at all, you know he normally bites his tongue rather than respond to misleading information, but he's obviously made an exception here. And he's laid out the entire universe of engine problems he's aware of with respect to his DIY system that went from not available to ~100 cars over the last 6-8 months. The question is, who else will lay all their cards on the table? I'm sure Sean has tremendous respect for DL, JH and others, as do I, but that doesn't mean they've never had a car break something after an install.

JD, that must have been one heck of an intercooler to gain 140 rwhp.

 

[Joseph Dell]

RedGTS -

When the Intercooler went on, we were able to _completely_ remove the MSD boost retard system. Running full timing, we were also able to run a full 9lb of boost.

I think I _might_ have had the hi-flow cats and the borla exhaust put on around this time too... not sure. And the fuel curve was remapped... I know that. But you are right... No one was expecting that much of a change in power for having been w/o the car for one week!

I'd called Doug on a Wed, drove the car down on a Friday, and then picked it up the following Friday... and [******]! That was power!

No one was expecting that much power. I don't even think Doug was...

JD