RobZilla
Enthusiast
Alright, so eventually I want to go with forced induction. My '00 obviously has cast guts. What do I need to change on the inside to achieve a set up that can withstand forced induction???? 
From Creampuff to Forged....???
- Thread starter RobZilla
- Start date
- Status
RobZilla
Enthusiast
That answers a lot of questions, thanks plum. I was looking for some engine pics. I was debating options as far as cam, lifters, and rockers. Obviously I don't have unlimited funds so a complete rebuild is out of the question.
Is there a worth to T&D rockers and lifters alone? If so what is it? Finally, how easy is it to change the cam?
Is there a worth to T&D rockers and lifters alone? If so what is it? Finally, how easy is it to change the cam?
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
Forged pistons are not absolutely necessary for FI. Many on here are running the Roe setup on lower boost with no problems. Even Sean will tell you the 5# setup is completely safe for a creampuff motor.
Now if you want to turn up the boost and/or run N2O, forged pistons are a must. But even the stock forged pistons are not bullet proof (close, but they will break). Aftermarket forged pistons are needed for high boost applications.
If you don't want to get into the motor, then you'll be relegated to low boost. You can run a Roe setup on a completely stock motor. The add-ons you are talking about only enhance the power and driveability of the supercharged car.
Roller rockers are a nice upgrade for the higher rpms. They add a lot of breathing up top and are more for peak power.
I'm really not sure upgraded lifters are a popular mod on these cars
The 708 cam is a good, inexpensive upgrade for the creampuffs. But there are also some nice custom cams that will add more power. However, I was told by both Sean and Chuck that the 708 is best for a low boost Roe setup, and no significant gains will come from the more expensive custom grinds.
This is some of the things I've learned and experienced with the cast piston motors, since that is what my car has (even though it is a 97
).
Now if you want to turn up the boost and/or run N2O, forged pistons are a must. But even the stock forged pistons are not bullet proof (close, but they will break). Aftermarket forged pistons are needed for high boost applications.
If you don't want to get into the motor, then you'll be relegated to low boost. You can run a Roe setup on a completely stock motor. The add-ons you are talking about only enhance the power and driveability of the supercharged car.
Roller rockers are a nice upgrade for the higher rpms. They add a lot of breathing up top and are more for peak power.
I'm really not sure upgraded lifters are a popular mod on these cars
The 708 cam is a good, inexpensive upgrade for the creampuffs. But there are also some nice custom cams that will add more power. However, I was told by both Sean and Chuck that the 708 is best for a low boost Roe setup, and no significant gains will come from the more expensive custom grinds.
This is some of the things I've learned and experienced with the cast piston motors, since that is what my car has (even though it is a 97
).RobZilla
Enthusiast
Thanks Bottle, looks like I'll end up avoiding these mods and just save up for the Roe and go with a 5# pully... I'm just in that itchy mood to do some more modding. The springs and caps did not cure me of that this past weekend. 
Larry Macedo did my engine and I've now got 42,000mi. on it. My car went 10.5@139mph on PS1s a couple years ago. Last year I ported the heads and upgraded the hp some more (the 720rwhp is really really low).
I'd start with Exhaust and Roe sc first. That will take some getting used to, but it'll you'll love it! M2 Motosports is close to you and does many sc and TT cars/Vipers.
7 vids here
YouTube - RTTTTed
and that'll give you an idea of what Corsa Track with headers and Random Tech with Roe HF cats sounds like with Roe blowers.
Ted
).I'd start with Exhaust and Roe sc first. That will take some getting used to, but it'll you'll love it! M2 Motosports is close to you and does many sc and TT cars/Vipers.
7 vids here
YouTube - RTTTTed
and that'll give you an idea of what Corsa Track with headers and Random Tech with Roe HF cats sounds like with Roe blowers.
Ted
RobZilla
Enthusiast
I've got several mods already. Actually a bunch and I'm gettin a little low on options other than forced induction. My concern was just how much I can do with cast internals. Based on Bottles reply and now yours, there is quite a bit I can do still.
B&B Headers, Corsa Cat Back, B&M Short Shifter, Vec I, Smooth Tubes, K&N, Eibachs n Caps, Rear Diffuser Blades, 2005 Tranny... I'm sure I missed something.
B&B Headers, Corsa Cat Back, B&M Short Shifter, Vec I, Smooth Tubes, K&N, Eibachs n Caps, Rear Diffuser Blades, 2005 Tranny... I'm sure I missed something.
I wouldn't bother with the 05 tranny. The 08 is a much straonger tranny than the Gen 2 so it would be worth upgrading, not the 05.
I've got the short shifter and short MGW handle. The handle is all you need.
You want the 800hp rear axles Unitrax also makes some Ubolts an brackets to save suspensin parts in case you break and axle so that's a pretty good upgrade as well. Roolbar is a good idea since you have a roadster since the tracks won't let you go faster than 13.0 without a bar.
The Roe comes with a Vec3 included in the sc price so that would be part of the Roe kit. You also get a CNC'd intake manifold. No intercooler needed @ 5psi. If you want 8psi then you can use water/**** as chemical intercooling. The Vec also controls the w/m.
Even with my high hp I use a stock clutch as it slips a little and is much easier on driveline parts. I do need to replace it about every 20Kmi. though.
The Hyperteuctic pistons that come in the 'creampuff' Viper engine are Good pistons and the main reason for forged pistons is because the top ring land needs to be lower in the piston for the increased strength needed for FI. If changing the pistons then I'd change cam, rockers, etc. I pulled my heads off my Viper in August and the Ross pistons and heads looked like new and these pistons have run 10psi for 32,000mi.
Ted
I've got the short shifter and short MGW handle. The handle is all you need.
You want the 800hp rear axles Unitrax also makes some Ubolts an brackets to save suspensin parts in case you break and axle so that's a pretty good upgrade as well. Roolbar is a good idea since you have a roadster since the tracks won't let you go faster than 13.0 without a bar.
The Roe comes with a Vec3 included in the sc price so that would be part of the Roe kit. You also get a CNC'd intake manifold. No intercooler needed @ 5psi. If you want 8psi then you can use water/**** as chemical intercooling. The Vec also controls the w/m.
Even with my high hp I use a stock clutch as it slips a little and is much easier on driveline parts. I do need to replace it about every 20Kmi. though.
The Hyperteuctic pistons that come in the 'creampuff' Viper engine are Good pistons and the main reason for forged pistons is because the top ring land needs to be lower in the piston for the increased strength needed for FI. If changing the pistons then I'd change cam, rockers, etc. I pulled my heads off my Viper in August and the Ross pistons and heads looked like new and these pistons have run 10psi for 32,000mi.
Ted
99 R/T 10
Enthusiast
Any of the trannies are good, but the 2005 would be the strongest. 2008 tranny is not a good swap(as ssen in the other tranny thread).
2001 GTS
Enthusiast
With my all motor build I went forged for future nitrous use, and it cost over $5k for a forged JE piston swap.
I say go with the 5lb Roe!
I say go with the 5lb Roe!
Steve 00RT/10
Enthusiast
Forged pistons are not absolutely necessary for FI. Many on here are running the Roe setup on lower boost with no problems. Even Sean will tell you the 5# setup is completely safe for a creampuff motor.
Now if you want to turn up the boost and/or run N2O, forged pistons are a must. But even the stock forged pistons are not bullet proof (close, but they will break). Aftermarket forged pistons are needed for high boost applications.
If you don't want to get into the motor, then you'll be relegated to low boost. You can run a Roe setup on a completely stock motor. The add-ons you are talking about only enhance the power and driveability of the supercharged car.
Roller rockers are a nice upgrade for the higher rpms. They add a lot of breathing up top and are more for peak power.
I'm really not sure upgraded lifters are a popular mod on these cars
The 708 cam is a good, inexpensive upgrade for the creampuffs. But there are also some nice custom cams that will add more power. However, I was told by both Sean and Chuck that the 708 is best for a low boost Roe setup, and no significant gains will come from the more expensive custom grinds.
This is some of the things I've learned and experienced with the cast piston motors, since that is what my car has (even though it is a 97
I agree….no need for forged pistons with a basic 5 pound Roe set up (6.5 with w/m). I have 40,000 miles on such set ups and zero issues. If you go with a 5 pounder, HS roller rockers are plenty good. I believe that’s what Sean has had on his ‘mule’ car for many years now.
I kind of disagree with Ted on the half shaft upgrade....it's not always necessary, or needed......unless it is your intent is to drag race, do repetitive violent 2nd gear shifts, or run very sticky tires. There is no good reason to change the half shafts if running stock tires and a 5 pounder (even more power with stock tires). The tires are the shear pin. Violent 2nd gear shifts will break half shafts on a stock Viper. I’m on my 6th set of rear tires…..lots of spinning, autocrosses, road tracks, and probably a dozen or so ¼ mile passes….. Never had a half shaft issue. 83K miles.
To most, ‘ too much HP is never enough’ However; I am perfectly content with: 5 pound Roes, 96 PCM, Belanger headers, no cats, 3” Belanger exhaust, HS 1.7s with T&D push rods, Fidanza lightweight flywheel, 3.45 Unitrax differential, smooth tubes, filters, and the infamous Vipair (which absolutely lowers intake temp by about 15 degrees according to the VEC). I also upgraded the power steering pulley and bracket with Dave’s Big Brakes package. I do like the MGW short throw shifter as well……and Tom’s 40 MM brakes
If you go the Roe way, you need to buy a wideband O2 set up, regardless of who does the tuning. You’re running blind without it. Monitoring one side is sufficient unless you plan on running on the ragged edge of tuning….not recommended for a creampuff.
Steve
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
It sounds like you have a good start to an awesome setup.I've got several mods already. Actually a bunch and I'm gettin a little low on options other than forced induction. My concern was just how much I can do with cast internals. Based on Bottles reply and now yours, there is quite a bit I can do still.
B&B Headers, Corsa Cat Back, B&M Short Shifter, Vec I, Smooth Tubes, K&N, Eibachs n Caps, Rear Diffuser Blades, 2005 Tranny... I'm sure I missed something.
Those mods are great with the Roe and will give you a very nice bump in power with the S/C. You have almost the same mods I had when I installed the Roe.
The 1.7RRs are one of the best mods with the S/C, as Phil and Steve just stated. I didn't have them when I first installed the S/C so when I added them I could really compare the difference. Before I had them the car seemed to hit a wall above 5000rpm and shifting at 5500 was necessary to stay in the power band. Now it pulls hard all the way to redline.
If you are short on funds after the Roe cost, try the Harland Sharp 1.7RRs. Both Sean and Chuck recommend them for the lower boost cars. They are good for upto 700hp. If your goal is higher than that, get the T&Ds.
EllowViper
Enthusiast
I'm in the middle of a cast to forged swap right now. Very similar to what BAZ is doing but not doing a cam swap. I had TD's and the ROE system installed already.
For a simple piston swap using the ROE/Arrow/Diamond custom stock replacement that will not require an engine rebalance, this is what you are minimally looking at:
10 custom Diamond pistons with rings and wrist pins: $1300.00
10 Rod bearings: $149.00
2 head gaskets: $65.00 (new MOPAR part number and pricing @ $32.00 each--sorry Sean!)
2 intake gaskets: $40.00
Now this is just around $1500.00 not including fluids and other misc small items/gaskets. It will probably be around $100 to get the new pistons/rings mounted on the OEM rods at a local engine shop. I'm also doing a DIY street port/polish on the heads with new valve seals (+$2.00 each) / retainers (+$2.00 a set ) and a three angle valve job ($169.00 for the valve job/resurface/reassembly). I think with all the other piddly little things I'm doing at the same time, I'll probably be around $2500.00 when I turn the key again.
This is just FYI from my perspective.
For a simple piston swap using the ROE/Arrow/Diamond custom stock replacement that will not require an engine rebalance, this is what you are minimally looking at:
10 custom Diamond pistons with rings and wrist pins: $1300.00
10 Rod bearings: $149.00
2 head gaskets: $65.00 (new MOPAR part number and pricing @ $32.00 each--sorry Sean!)
2 intake gaskets: $40.00
Now this is just around $1500.00 not including fluids and other misc small items/gaskets. It will probably be around $100 to get the new pistons/rings mounted on the OEM rods at a local engine shop. I'm also doing a DIY street port/polish on the heads with new valve seals (+$2.00 each) / retainers (+$2.00 a set ) and a three angle valve job ($169.00 for the valve job/resurface/reassembly). I think with all the other piddly little things I'm doing at the same time, I'll probably be around $2500.00 when I turn the key again.
This is just FYI from my perspective.
RobZilla
Enthusiast
Lots of great advice and suggestions. After taking a look at Baz's thread, I've got my mind set on a 5 lb Roe with some rockers. I don't race, but the idea of a SC just has my head turning.
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
Anything Steve says on running a Roe on a creampuff car is as good as gold. Between he and DamnYankee, they pretty much know everything there is to know about running the Roe system on cast pistons. I absorbed most of my info on the S/C from listening to those two.
They probably have the most miles and tuning experience on a 5# Roe system of any owners out there.
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
Eric,
thanks for sharing your project. Those costs are very reasonable and, in the end, you will be at less than a 1/4 of a full motor build.
It will be very tempting once you are done and prove that it works. I'm watching Baz and you very closely to see how things turn out.
This could be a great thing for creampuff cars if this works out. Thanks for being our "guinea pigs"
EllowViper
Enthusiast
Just so it doesn't shake itself to pieces...it is a very basic engine once you have it all apart. Nothing exotic or technically WOW. Though I won't be removing the front cover, the oil pump design/system is pretty engenious. The crank is quite a piece of work too. Impressive. The main caps are laughable when compared to the rest of the engine...but I guess they do OK up to 700-800hp. The heads are just a basic design but those LOOOONG runners are really something. I am really impressed with how Dodge designed the "wrenchability" of the car. No one should be scared to "learn as you go" on their Viper. Its really a just a good old American made car!
Actually steve, I recommended halfshafts because of wheelhop. Sticky tires are good as they cut down on wheel hop.
The loops and halfshafts can save a lot of money as compared to busting those steel parts at highspeed. Just a safety thing.
From what I've seen the heads are based on the W6 race heads sold by Mopar Performance back in the "old days". They are an excellent design.
Ted
VIPER BAZ UK
Enthusiast
Wanted a Roe for a long time now and it was the final purchase in a 2 year parts colection.....
I was only going 5lb to begin with but then i know what i'm like and just got real lucky with Carl (UK member) selling all his 500mile Roe kit to go TT......
Right place right time for a change...
Without Chuck T,Sean Roe,Big VIPER (Richard) and Carl this would not be happening..
And advise from Damn Yankee and others......
I was only going 5lb to begin with but then i know what i'm like and just got real lucky with Carl (UK member) selling all his 500mile Roe kit to go TT......
Right place right time for a change...
Without Chuck T,Sean Roe,Big VIPER (Richard) and Carl this would not be happening..
And advise from Damn Yankee and others......
Last edited:
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
Lots of great advice and suggestions. After taking a look at Baz's thread, I've got my mind set on a 5 lb Roe with some rockers. I don't race, but the idea of a SC just has my head turning.
I think you will be very happy with the Roe S/C, even on 5#. It will be a nice bump in power and will take some time to get used to.As my friend Carl says, "it's the power the car should have come with from the factory."
The car handles 600hp great and is relatively safe on all the stock parts.
BTW, do you plan to do this yourself.
Steve 00RT/10
Enthusiast
Anything Steve says on running a Roe on a creampuff car is as good as gold. Between he and DamnYankee, they pretty much know everything there is to know about running the Roe system on cast pistons. I absorbed most of my info on the S/C from listening to those two.
They probably have the most miles and tuning experience on a 5# Roe system of any owners out there.
Thanks for the compliment. I know there are many here more knowledgable than me. I just happen to share my experience maybe a little more. Damn Yankee and I have very similar cars except for exhaust. He & I talked a fair amount back when we were doing this. It was a true DIY project for me, having never tackled anything like it before. That being said, the 5 pound kit is definitely something anyone can do....tuning included.
I guess every car reacts a little differently. I only have personal experience with 2 Vipers, but the only time I have ever experienced wheel hop was with a violent shift to 2nd. I stopped doing that the first year I owned the car. I've never had wheel hop from any kind of smokey start, donuts, or non-violent upshift. Come to think of it, I have probably seen a 100 plus Vipers smoking tires and can't remember noticing any wheel hop. $800 for a pair of halfshafts is a lot of money if you don't get wheel hop. I guess one could buy the loops for the safety precaution. I'm guessing wheel hop is fairly prevalent in drag racing and would certainly warrant the upgrade. Wheel hop doesn't do any part of the car any good.
While I don't intend on putting sticky tires on....if I did...I would then be looking to upgrade the 1/2 shafts because of the TQ the Roe puts down...even with a 5 pounder. That's why I sold the Hoosiers slicks the bumblebee came with. There was little or no slippage and almost 600 pounds of TQ.
I'm sticking with the tires being the shear pin theory.
Steve
id say if you plan on 1/4 miling your car at a track, then definitely get the half shafts. if your like me and never gonna go to the track, wait and see and i doubt you will need them.
sometimes its good to have a weak link in the drivetrain as affordable as an OEM halfshaft.
sometimes its good to have a weak link in the drivetrain as affordable as an OEM halfshaft.
RobZilla
Enthusiast
With the right instructions I am sure this can be a DIY job for me. Tuning will have be done somewhere, possibly ROE since he's in Jax now. I honesly want a modest set up. 5 lb with rockers and new half shafts should do me pretty well.
im personally ALL FOR a professional tuning MY car. I dont want ANYTHING to do with tuning. leave that to the pro's.
i have not had one single tuning issue with mine in now about 5K miles since being tuned in 100 degree florida weather. thats saying something about a pro tuner considering i live in NNJ......
i have not had one single tuning issue with mine in now about 5K miles since being tuned in 100 degree florida weather. thats saying something about a pro tuner considering i live in NNJ......
Few points, run a set of slicks with the upgraded halfshafts SOONER OR LATER the rear end and or the tranny will go.Tune the car yourself and just be off slightly (esp running ******* a hot day )and one can easily take a motor out in seconds.
Threads like this are the EXACT reason top line tuners like DLM do not due mail order .Just because a car is tuned correctly on a dyno (by a novice )in an ideal environment does not mean its in tune running HARD and HOT on a 100 degree day -TOTAL different animal.
Steve 00RT/10
Enthusiast
I have always heard the Paxton GEN II kit is not for novices.
The Roe is a completely different animal from the Paxton for tuning. The Roe does not sense SC air charge temp (like the Paxton)...only IAT from the airbox. ...kind of an Achilles heel. Our car has never been on a dyno, but has been log tuned from 30F to 100F. No dyno....no matter who does it can fine tune the AFR as well as on the road logging under varying temperatures. Even if a pro shop tuned your Roe car and then gave you a couple cards with added or reduced % of fuel....it would not be as accurate as logging. With the VEC 2, I used to run 3 different temperature cards 40/70/90 degree. With the added VEC 3 (or upgraded VEC 2) IAT feature, I now run one card for all temps. I stop removing fuel when the IAT hits 124 and let the fuel be a cooling agent...just like the OEM computer does on stock cars. Even this new IAT feature is not as good as the Paxton in that the IAT is not linear to the SC air charge temp. It is however relative enough to the WB reading taken during log runs (as was the original VEC IAT function) to modify the AFR. I would guess cold temps are more the danger to a Roe car with only one card, tuned in a 75-80 degree dyno shop environment. It would run very rich if extremely hot out. That's why you need to have a wideband kit so you can see the AFR at all times when going WOT.....especially as the outside temperature decreases.
We are talking about the 5 pound Roe kit here. The original. The one designed for all GEN I, II Vipers and easiest to tune. Life got a little more complicated with the bigger pulleys and W/M
Steve
- Status
Similar threads
