exactly what i think. those 5lb and 6.5lb Roes seem to be damn good and easy to tune and maintain. i still personally dont like the idea of tuning MY own car.
From Creampuff to Forged....???
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exactly what i think. those 5lb and 6.5lb Roes seem to be damn good and easy to tune and maintain. i still personally dont like the idea of tuning MY own car.
99 R/T 10
Enthusiast
So Phil,
after we get you to a track and you start getting comfortable laying down some good times, we'll bring in a Roe car to whoop-up on ya and bring ya over to the darkside. I bet we could convice Doug to switch ya over
after we get you to a track and you start getting comfortable laying down some good times, we'll bring in a Roe car to whoop-up on ya and bring ya over to the darkside. I bet we could convice Doug to switch ya over
VIPER BAZ UK
Enthusiast
My viper is going to AEM to be tuned.......
Agreed .Ihave a friend from NJ who is TRYING to run a 10 lb pulley on a built motor.The guy runs the car hard in hot weather (roadraces it at Pocono )and is having ONE COMPLICATION AFTER ANOTHER (blower seals,some cyl running rich others lean,MAJOR heatsoak.Our tuner measured his air inlet temp into the engine at 170 degrees after 3 HOT dyno pulls )He is using TANKS of water (injection system )in a afternoon .Our tuner is afraid next the engine will go so hes hand fabricating an intercooler but thats VERY EXPENSIVE .Is there a possibility that when you run over 6 lbs boost the blower is too small for the engine size of the Viper (same blower size used on the 5.4 Fords)and basically working too hard and producing hot air?
2001 GTS
Enthusiast
My attempts at tuning myself ended that way...
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Simms
Enthusiast
Different people have opinions on what size pulley should be used for optimal performance, but once a compressor gets out of its efficiency range, it starts to create a lot more heat.
D
DAMN YANKEE
Guest
What they all said above..You are doing exactly the right thing.....
Keep It Simple!
This rig is a 5lbs Roe 2000 GTS with rollers, cat backs and stock, repeat stock cats.
What a joy.
Keep It Simple!
This rig is a 5lbs Roe 2000 GTS with rollers, cat backs and stock, repeat stock cats.
What a joy.
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BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
Hi Daniel,
haven't seen you on here in awhile. I thought maybe you took the winter off
I was hoping you would post on here.
Is that you in the pic? I always pictured you as much older haha!
Yes, simple is better. I have found that out the hard way. But in the end I took Daniel and Steve's advice and will stay in the lower boost on my Roe setup. Unless you have bottomless pockets and love to have your car down all the time, stick to the basics.
haven't seen you on here in awhile. I thought maybe you took the winter off
I was hoping you would post on here.
Is that you in the pic? I always pictured you as much older haha!
Yes, simple is better. I have found that out the hard way. But in the end I took Daniel and Steve's advice and will stay in the lower boost on my Roe setup. Unless you have bottomless pockets and love to have your car down all the time, stick to the basics.
D
DAMN YANKEE
Guest
I read alot more than I write now, they took away my keyboard after the lunch tray episode.
That is my son, he is the person that wrenched the whole Roe build. A 5lb Roe is perfection, I get a full 10 lbs all day long with it.
That is my son, he is the person that wrenched the whole Roe build. A 5lb Roe is perfection, I get a full 10 lbs all day long with it.
This is EXACTLY what our tuner says is going on .Our tuner claims this blower is way too small to be run at 10lbs boost on a roadracing track in July on a 488 cu engine.
Have seen the above happen way too much(run a little rich or too much timing one time there goes the motor) .Much better off leaving it to the PROS.Years ago i set up the Muscle Mustang and Fast Ford test of Dan Black DLM Stage 2 Viper and got to speak to Doug Leven about certain particular aspects of supercharging our cars..ALL of his kits are done in house (no mail order )for this particular reason.(his personalized tuning of a package involves ALOT more than a hour on a dyno and mind you he has tuned hundreds of Vipers)Alot of his set ups are also tailored to the customers intended usage.On Blacks car for example he(Leven) spent DAYS AFTER the install to make sure AIR FUEL,SPARK AND DRIVEABILITY were correct in ALL weather and driving applications.
Simms
Enthusiast
I believe hood clearance issues kept Sean from using a larger compressor. I think the Roe setup uses the 2.2(maybe 2.4, I can't remember exactly) Autorotor compressor. It is a small unit for our motors, but it was a very nice piece for running 5-6.5psi. I don't think Sean anticipated people running 10-14psi when he first developed the kit.
When guys like myself start running smaller pulley setups, we spin the compressor out of its efficency range and heat is a big side effect. You have to ramp up the water/**** and you can not run as much timing as lower psi cars.
I will say this, I ran road coarse events running 12psi with my car. The car ran great (thanks to a great tune by my tuner) but I know it was building some serious heat. If I were to do a lot of track events with a Roe car, I would run only 5lb. For the street and occasional drag strip, it was awesome.
The guy is going thru TANKS of water-**** in one day.Our tuner thinks the blower needs to be bigger and intercooled for this size motor in this application.After 3 dyno back to back to back pulls on a hot day engine heat soaked and lost over 80 RWHP.Nick measured the ir temp into the engine at 170 degrees .Are you spraying w/m with the 10 pounds? If not, you should be.
EXACTLY ,the problem my buddys having is he WANTS the power of the bigger pulley (stayed NAT asperated and got 575 to the tire limited heatsoak )so Nick is doing a hand fabricated intercooler (BUT its costing big bucks )
Steve 00RT/10
Enthusiast
This above my pay grade. I know simple things. I assume LTFT is zeroed out before tuning....not that it would make a big difference if it was well within +/- parameters (mine set a lean code on one car and was running -25% on the other when we got it -- because the OEM O2 was in the 3rd Belanger tube). Here's where the individual cylinder trim comes. It is necessary to have this function. Older VECs didn't. My plugs all burn the same. I zeroed out the LTFT by modifying the base set (65% factory -- up to 70%) and then fine tuned the cylinder trim to get get even burn.
For comparison, I have seen 145 degree IAT temps on our non-Vipair car(95+ degree day) after some logging runs with no issues. Remember this temp. reading is not the SC charge air temp. That would be an amount higher. I have no clue what is safe.
Isn't this a Sean Roe question?
I have run the Gingerman road track the last 3 years with mine in June. No heat soak. No performance loss over the course of the 90+ mile day / 15-20 minute sessions. No high temp on the gauge. It doesn't even get above the 1st bar after the 190 degree area. By the time I take a cool down lap and park, I'm into my normal running range.
Another plus for the Roe is that with a light flywheel and 3.45s.....I run the entire track in 4th gear. G-Man is considered a 3rd gear track for Vipers. I have enough grunt to break loose on any corner on the track on corner exit.
I'm pretty sure there are 10 pounders out there running just fine. Ted, who has chipped in on this thread, has tracked his car and at 720 HP must have at least a 10 pounder on it.
Steve
Simms
Enthusiast
I'm real interested in seeing the intercooler setup when completed. I'm guessing air to water?
Steve makes some real good points. The individual cylinder trim is a good thing. Number 9 and 10 cylinders used to always burn rich due to the intake design. You can now tune that out. That may help your buddy. I think I read somewhere that some guys installed a baffle in the lower intake to try to equal out the airflow to the cylinders as well. You may want to search that.
The Autorotor Sean uses with his kit is 2.7L and the one he tested (and sold for the SRT10 trucks since they had hood clearance) was a 3.1L.
Factories have been building turbo and supercharger systems for decades. Up to 7psi no intercooler is needed or used. At 7-9 psi TD'd T2 and T3s as well as Stealth TTs 9-11psi systems they used intercoolers.
10psi is what my car ran without w/m. The forged 9-1 Ross pistons show no damage from that time and the engine made 698rwhp. W/m injection was added more recently to allow timing advance for the addittional power.
Heatsoak is an issue with all engines that runhard consistantly. N/a engines also develop heatsoak. The 08 Vipers have awesomne venting in an attempt to help with heatsoak. I'm waiting for someone to develop an insert to 'glas into my hood that incorporates a larger scoop and the newer style venting.
I also worked with George Duda (Mopac Autosupply) when he was the B&M and NOS distributor here in the Northwest. He used Nitrous to cool the air charge before the little B&M blowers compressed the air into the engine. This allowed a 350 and a 440 nearly stock engines to run low 10s and mid nines with relaibility at Eagle racetrack. After more than a year of drag racing only the 350 had to be replaced due to failure. Although Nitrous can't be used continuously, it can be used often and can cause ice cold intake temperatures.
Ted
Factories have been building turbo and supercharger systems for decades. Up to 7psi no intercooler is needed or used. At 7-9 psi TD'd T2 and T3s as well as Stealth TTs 9-11psi systems they used intercoolers.
10psi is what my car ran without w/m. The forged 9-1 Ross pistons show no damage from that time and the engine made 698rwhp. W/m injection was added more recently to allow timing advance for the addittional power.
Heatsoak is an issue with all engines that runhard consistantly. N/a engines also develop heatsoak. The 08 Vipers have awesomne venting in an attempt to help with heatsoak. I'm waiting for someone to develop an insert to 'glas into my hood that incorporates a larger scoop and the newer style venting.
I also worked with George Duda (Mopac Autosupply) when he was the B&M and NOS distributor here in the Northwest. He used Nitrous to cool the air charge before the little B&M blowers compressed the air into the engine. This allowed a 350 and a 440 nearly stock engines to run low 10s and mid nines with relaibility at Eagle racetrack. After more than a year of drag racing only the 350 had to be replaced due to failure. Although Nitrous can't be used continuously, it can be used often and can cause ice cold intake temperatures.
Ted
99 R/T 10
Enthusiast
He shouldn't be. Unless his foot is full throttle all the tim, it should last a lot longer than that, even at a track event
D
DAMN YANKEE
Guest
Nice thing about the Roe units?
Most are set up with a Vec...and the Vec can do some pretty nice reporting on whats going on.
He should know how to do this...correction, he MUST know how to do this if he is going to set up a wet set.
Wouldn't I like to see what is going on with your Buddy's runs. Yep.
Ask his tuner to send along some data and we will all take a look.
Most are set up with a Vec...and the Vec can do some pretty nice reporting on whats going on.
He should know how to do this...correction, he MUST know how to do this if he is going to set up a wet set.
Wouldn't I like to see what is going on with your Buddy's runs. Yep.
Ask his tuner to send along some data and we will all take a look.
Everyone defination of running the car HARD is different.Our tuner is saying 170 air inlet temp are in the danger zone.While NA lose power (heatsoak )they dont lose over 80 to the tire after the third dyno pull.(my old modded NA GTS lost 30 on the hottest days)For how this guy is using the car MAYBE the blower too small to run a 10 lb pulley.
He shouldn't be. Unless his foot is full throttle all the tim, it should last a lot longer than that, even at a track event
I agree. He has something WAY wrong if he used that much.
My buddy roadraces the big track at Pocono .Runs HARD IN July.As i mentioned heatsoak ,cyl rich,lean issues and high air inlet temps not the only problem had to have the blower seals replaced less than 1000 miles.I agree. He has something WAY wrong if he used that much.
170F at the airbox (IAT)? Something wrong there. Restricted?
10 psi is just slightly above stock factory warranted boost and although many of OUR Viper engines have too much compression (not the blower) for 10psi, you can (and usually do change the pistons to run higher boost. /the 98s run about 9.6 to 1 and the Gen 3s run 10.2 to 1 compression. THAT's the problem, not 10psi. My Ross pistons are 9 to 1 and that means that it can run 10psi without w/m and no damage. My stock 92 Turbo 3 engine runs 8.2 - 1 compression forged pistons stock with 9psi boost, also stock. A manual boost controller alone will allow a boost setting of 14.5 psi all stock with reliability and no detonation.
The mustangs used a Whipple and NOT an autorotor. At Saleen we were treated to the engine shop, the blower shop, etc. The blowers are encased in the intake manifold, not bolted on top like a Roe. The Saleen blowers are under the intake runners. I believ that the Ford GT uses a Whipple twinscrew blower. Same style of blower, but not the same case etc.
Whipple Industries
As stated previously, the Vec 2 and 3 allow indiviual fuel trim adjustments for EACH cylinder and rich cylinders would be the fault of the tuner (get a new tuner). The earliest Roe blowers (like mine) ran rich to 2 cylinders and Sean built a baffle that solved that problem so if he has an OLD RR blower, call Sean for the baffle to solve that problem.
One reason Sean chose the Autorotor (same as Kenny Bell) blower is because of it's fantastic reliablilty. These blowers have run more than a 100,000mi. Mine was installed within a couple thousand miles of new and now has 42,000mi. on it. I pulled the blower last summer to port my heads and everything looked brand new.
The twin screw is the most efficient type of blower made. Check out the Whipple site I linked above.
Ted
10 psi is just slightly above stock factory warranted boost and although many of OUR Viper engines have too much compression (not the blower) for 10psi, you can (and usually do change the pistons to run higher boost. /the 98s run about 9.6 to 1 and the Gen 3s run 10.2 to 1 compression. THAT's the problem, not 10psi. My Ross pistons are 9 to 1 and that means that it can run 10psi without w/m and no damage. My stock 92 Turbo 3 engine runs 8.2 - 1 compression forged pistons stock with 9psi boost, also stock. A manual boost controller alone will allow a boost setting of 14.5 psi all stock with reliability and no detonation.
The mustangs used a Whipple and NOT an autorotor. At Saleen we were treated to the engine shop, the blower shop, etc. The blowers are encased in the intake manifold, not bolted on top like a Roe. The Saleen blowers are under the intake runners. I believ that the Ford GT uses a Whipple twinscrew blower. Same style of blower, but not the same case etc.
Whipple Industries
As stated previously, the Vec 2 and 3 allow indiviual fuel trim adjustments for EACH cylinder and rich cylinders would be the fault of the tuner (get a new tuner). The earliest Roe blowers (like mine) ran rich to 2 cylinders and Sean built a baffle that solved that problem so if he has an OLD RR blower, call Sean for the baffle to solve that problem.
One reason Sean chose the Autorotor (same as Kenny Bell) blower is because of it's fantastic reliablilty. These blowers have run more than a 100,000mi. Mine was installed within a couple thousand miles of new and now has 42,000mi. on it. I pulled the blower last summer to port my heads and everything looked brand new.
The twin screw is the most efficient type of blower made. Check out the Whipple site I linked above.
Ted
Again, sounds like he has other problems. Almost everyone else who's running them have NO problems. Looks like your buddy is in the minority which means he either
a) has a bad blower or other component
b) has problems with how it is installed
c) has a bad tune or
d) is pushing the blower beyond it's capabilities (I doubt)
I believe he also has the ROSS forged alum pistone 8.5 to 1 on Crower Rods.As i mentioned my expertise is NA Motors just trying to help him get answers before he blows a 25000.00 engine up (has head work ect )Contradiction is tuner says its the non intercooled blower(TOO SMALL) plus of coarse the way the car is being run.Some board members claim it could be the installation and tune.Are the blowers used on the 5.4 lit Fords the EXACT same size (know you mentioned different company )
Here's a thought...have the tuner call Sean Roe. I may be spit-balling here but Sean may know something about his superchargers. Just saying.
Is anyone roadracing these things competitively on long tracks during the summer months at 10lbs boost.?
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