2snakes4us
Enthusiast
Is anyone using a Special Anode Radiator Cap? do you believe in the product? or is a waste of money? 
thanks.
Mitch
thanks.
Mitch
Radiator Cap
- Thread starter 2snakes4us
- Start date
dave6666
Enthusiast
Is anyone using a Special Anode Radiator Cap? do you believe in the product? or is a waste of money?
thanks.
Mitch
Yes. Yes. No.
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agentf1
Enthusiast
I have heard 2 trains of thought on these. Some people swear by them and others say they are bad and wil use up whatever is in the antifreeze that prevents corrosion and causes it to go bad quicker. Not sure who you want to believe.
I have heard they are more for boats not something like a Viper with a closed system with anti corrosion/anti freeze in it. Maybe somebody like Chuck Tator or Jon B can chime in. I have always wondered about this also.
Not sure who you want to believe.I have heard they are more for boats not something like a Viper with a closed system with anti corrosion/anti freeze in it. Maybe somebody like Chuck Tator or Jon B can chime in. I have always wondered about this also.
dave6666
Enthusiast
The majority of the manufacturing at my employer is by electrochemistry. All kinds of electrochemistry. Bipolar cells, mono polar cells, electrodialysis etc. What does that have to do with the radiator cap? Well, I just called one of our many PhD electrochemists. Here's the scoop:
The material of the anode is important. Aluminum, magnesium, titanium etc could all act differently. So now, a question on my behalf - anyone know what the anode is made of?
Now let's assume the anode is the correct material for now.
The engine block is grounded to the frame and can be considered electrically neutral. The radiator and surge container with the anode are insulated because they are either made of plastic or mounted with plastic or both. Therefore, the electrical potential - or voltage - between components like the radiator, engine block etc, are determined by the conductivity of the fluid, the length of the fluid or hose, and the current flow itself. For those of you that might challenge the existence of this current flow, I suggest you do not buy the cap. The current is there, minute as it is. Even if it is galvanic by dissimilar metals, it is there.
Point of above is that we can assume there to be an electrical potential between the major components under the hood, via the coolant.
Next thing to note is that if the sacrificial anode is of the correct material, and we're assuming it is, then other components become cathodes. In electrochemistry, cathodes are cathodically protected from corrosion. No anode, no cathodic protection.
Now we could say that if you don't have the anode cap, that there are components that will take on the role of cathode and anode. But when you put the $20 cap in on purpose forcing the expensive stuff to stay protected, then, well... You do the math.
Does this eat up the corrosion inhibitors faster or not? Maybe Tom can chime in, cause we don't run glycols through our electrolyzers. But Prestone is cheap. Buy new stuff when the anode is gone. Says right on the anode cap you're supposed to look at it occasionally!
The material of the anode is important. Aluminum, magnesium, titanium etc could all act differently. So now, a question on my behalf - anyone know what the anode is made of?
Now let's assume the anode is the correct material for now.
The engine block is grounded to the frame and can be considered electrically neutral. The radiator and surge container with the anode are insulated because they are either made of plastic or mounted with plastic or both. Therefore, the electrical potential - or voltage - between components like the radiator, engine block etc, are determined by the conductivity of the fluid, the length of the fluid or hose, and the current flow itself. For those of you that might challenge the existence of this current flow, I suggest you do not buy the cap. The current is there, minute as it is. Even if it is galvanic by dissimilar metals, it is there.
Point of above is that we can assume there to be an electrical potential between the major components under the hood, via the coolant.
Next thing to note is that if the sacrificial anode is of the correct material, and we're assuming it is, then other components become cathodes. In electrochemistry, cathodes are cathodically protected from corrosion. No anode, no cathodic protection.
Now we could say that if you don't have the anode cap, that there are components that will take on the role of cathode and anode. But when you put the $20 cap in on purpose forcing the expensive stuff to stay protected, then, well... You do the math.
Does this eat up the corrosion inhibitors faster or not? Maybe Tom can chime in, cause we don't run glycols through our electrolyzers. But Prestone is cheap. Buy new stuff when the anode is gone. Says right on the anode cap you're supposed to look at it occasionally!
mad0953
Enthusiast
Dave could you translate your explanation into Oregonese for me please?? 
dave6666
Enthusiast
Dave could you translate your explanation into Oregonese for me please??
Buy anode cap for $20. Check it like you're supposed to. Replace coolant when anode is toast.
mad0953
Enthusiast
Whew!!!! I was scared for a moment...............thanks Dave
Thought for the day...Flush/replace coolent on a regular schedule with the appropriate fluid...test it regularly, and/or redo the flush/refill early.
Ron
Enthusiast
Yes, No, Yes
************************************
Do a search and read Tom's comments. I bought one and quickly sold it on EBay.
************************************
Do a search and read Tom's comments. I bought one and quickly sold it on EBay.
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
The antifreeze's anti-corrosion additives will try to protect the anode and consequently get used up more quickly. Also, I believe they will go to the most active corrosion site, so while it's fighting one big battle, it is ignoring others (i.e. the block.)
This is probably more important to understand with long-life antifreeze because the additives stay in the fluid until needed. The green coolant additives would plate out within a short time and coat the surfaces to protect them - so they couldn't do much to protect something newly added, like the anode. Long life or extended life antifreeze additives don't do anything until they sense the corrosion, then attack it. The anode is simply cannon fodder, but lots of it.
If you don't want to use glycol, get some Zerex Super Racing Coolant. It is simply the anti-corrosion additive package that comes in the gallon of antifreeze, but minus the glycol. The additive package is only 10% of the gallon or 5% of the final mixture, so you'll only need a quart or so for your car. This is not the same as products that claim to enhance cooling properties of fluids.
http://forums.viperclub.org/rt-10-gts-discussions/528120-water-wetter-bad-engine-2.html
Post #23, although interesting to read altogether.
This is probably more important to understand with long-life antifreeze because the additives stay in the fluid until needed. The green coolant additives would plate out within a short time and coat the surfaces to protect them - so they couldn't do much to protect something newly added, like the anode. Long life or extended life antifreeze additives don't do anything until they sense the corrosion, then attack it. The anode is simply cannon fodder, but lots of it.
If you don't want to use glycol, get some Zerex Super Racing Coolant. It is simply the anti-corrosion additive package that comes in the gallon of antifreeze, but minus the glycol. The additive package is only 10% of the gallon or 5% of the final mixture, so you'll only need a quart or so for your car. This is not the same as products that claim to enhance cooling properties of fluids.
http://forums.viperclub.org/rt-10-gts-discussions/528120-water-wetter-bad-engine-2.html
Post #23, although interesting to read altogether.
D
DAMN YANKEE
Guest
Interesting topic! Interesting responses!
Its the radiator and your water pump that is in the most jeapardy and even changing your antifreeze regularly is only a partial cure.
The real secret to zero corrossion is...
Welcome to No-Rosion, protect your car or truck's cooling and fuel systems.
Yes, it can last alot longer than your antifreeze, but dont wait, swap it out with your antifreeze.
Folks, if you hardly drive your Viper, you are just asking for it. Also, use "softened" water, not distilled water.
I also use the cap and it goes bad in about 2 years.
Belt and suspenders.
There will be a written exam on the folowing...
Q. How do I use No-Rosion Cooling System Corrosion Inhibitor?
A. With your vehicle’s engine cool and ignition off, open the radiator cap and pour in the proper dosage of No-Rosion. Then, start the engine, turn the heat on high, and allow the car to run for at least 10 minutes, or until you know the thermostat has opened. This will circulate No-Rosion through the entire system, thus providing full protection to the radiator, heater core, water pump, cylinder heads, engine block, and intake manifold.
Q. What if my vehicle’s cooling system is already full?
A. Open the petcock on the bottom of the radiator, and drain approximately one pint of coolant in order to create sufficient additional capacity for the addition of No-Rosion. If it is easier, siphon or use a pipette to extract the coolant from the top of the radiator. No-Rosion may also be added to the coolant expansion tank or reservoir, as long as the vehicle is driven regularly. It takes approximately 4-5 complete heat-up and cool-down cycles for the No-Rosion to make its way into the cooling system via the coolant reservoir.
Q. How much No-Rosion is required for complete protection from corrosion, electrolysis, and scale build-up?
A. One pint of No-Rosion treats cooling systems 10-22 quarts in capacity. For systems less than 10 quarts, add 1 ½ ounces per quart of coolant. For systems over 22 quarts, add one pint, plus 1 ½ additional ounces for every quart of capacity over 22 quarts. In straight water coolant applications, add 1 ½ pints No-Rosion (50% more than normal) to treat cooling systems 10-22 quarts in capacity.
Q. How often should No-Rosion be added in order to maintain full protection?
A. The corrosion inhibitors in No-Rosion are slowly depleted over time. For this reason, it is recommended that a treatment be added once every year or 30,000 miles – whichever comes first. Flush and refill after the 5th year.
Q. Is No-Rosion compatible with the antifreeze currently in my vehicle’s cooling system?
A. Yes. It is compatible with all types of antifreeze, including ethylene glycol and non-toxic propylene glycol. This includes traditional silicate-based (green-colored), Extended Life (orange-colored), and Universal Extended Life (yellow-colored) antifreezes.
Q. Why is it necessary to flush a cooling system in the first place?
A. Without No-Rosion, it is necessary to flush a cooling system every 18-24 months. Glycol in antifreeze breaks down over time to form glycolic acid (a weak acid) that reduces the pH of coolant and causes corrosion. Byproducts of combustion also contaminate coolant, causing further acidic degradation of coolant. At these lower pH levels, tiny rust particles begin to form, and combine with “silicates” in antifreeze and “hardness” in water to form insoluble gels. The gels reduce coolant flow through radiator tubes and reduces the system’s ability to transfer heat. Flushing removes harmful glycolic acid, combustion contaminants, and antifreeze gels.
Q. Does application of No-Rosion allow me to flush less often?
A. Yes. No-Rosion contains an ingredient called borate, which adds “reserve alkalinity” to coolant. Alkalinity continually buffers the pH of the coolant to safe levels. This prevents acidic degradation of coolant, and associated damage from glycolic acid and acidic combustion byproduct contaminants. No-Rosion also contains polymer dispersants that prevent the formation of antifreeze gels. For this reason, the proper application of No-Rosion allows the time between cooling system flushes to be extended to 5 years.
Q. Will No-Rosion “rejuvenate” old, broken down antifreeze?
A. Yes, but only to a degree. The sodium hydroxide in No-Rosion will elevate the pH of coolant to a degree, thus neutralizing glycolic acid and creating a slight “rejuvenating” effect. However, antifreeze more than 3-4 years old should be drained, flushed, and refilled with fresh antifreeze prior to application of No-Rosion.
Q. Why is No-Rosion dark pink in color?
A. The color serves a functional purpose. No-Rosion contains a pH-indicator called “phenolphthalein,” which turns pink above a pH of 8.5, and goes clear at a pH below 8.5. Because No-Rosion was originally formulated for the treatment of large, high-dollar industrial cooling systems, the pH-indicator allows industrial engineers a quick and easy way to identify the pH of system waters.
Q. Why does No-Rosion seem to lose its color when it is added to my vehicle’s cooling system?
A. When No-Rosion is added to an automotive cooling system, it immediately acts to neutralize any existing weak acids. Therefore, you may notice a loss of the pink color as No-Rosion’s alkalinity acts to neutralize acids. Dyes in antifreeze also interfere with No-Rosion’s pH indicator, thus making this effect difficult to distinguish unless plain water coolant is used.
Q. Is there any advantage to using straight water and No-Rosion as coolant, WITHOUT ANTIFREEZE?
A. Yes. Straight water has nearly TWICE the heat transfer capacity as glycol-based antifreeze, and nearly 50% more heat transfer capacity than a 50/50 mix. This causes cooling systems containing glycol to run hotter, since the transfer of heat from cylinder heads to coolant, and then from coolant to the outside environment via the radiator is far less efficient. This is particularly the case if your vehicle was built prior to the 1950’s. Engines in older cars were originally designed to use alcohol for antifreeze, and running today’s viscous glycol blends can cause overheating. Glycol also gels in the presence of engine oil, which can cause severe bearing damage and engine failure if even slight amounts of glycol coolant seeps into the crankcase. Older engines having cylinder heads torqued to less than 40 ft/lbs can fall prey to this type of damage. However, straight water coolant leaves system metals vulnerable to corrosion. No-Rosion provides 100% corrosion protection when used with straight water coolant, thus completely solving this problem.
Q. What is the most common cause of overheating?
A. Over time, silicates in antifreeze and hardness in water become insoluble, and combine to form antifreeze “gels.” This process is accelerated by using aged antifreeze, or tap water with a high concentration of hardness. As antifreeze gels circulate through the system, they reduce coolant flow through radiator tubes, which in turn reduces heat transfer and increases operating temperatures. If antifreeze is not drained, flushed, and refilled every 18-24 months, gels adhere to high heat-transfer areas, baking onto metal surfaces to form “scales” and “deposits.” Scales only 1/16” thick decrease heat transfer by 40%, thus causing overheating.
Q. What causes damage to the water pump?
A. Antifreeze gels, due to their chemical composition, are very gritty. Think of them as “liquid sandpaper.” As they pass through the working parts of the water pump, they erode the impeller, which can contribute to increased operating temperatures due to decreased coolant flow. Eventually the gels make their way to the seals of the water pump, causing leaks and water pump failure.
Q. How does No-Rosion solve the problem of antifreeze gels?
A. No-Rosion contains complex polymer “dispersants” that prevent the silicates in antifreeze and the hardness in water from becoming insoluble. It also lubricates the working parts and seals of water pumps, preventing associated damage and failure.
Q. Will No-Rosion actively clean or remove existing scales and deposits in already-fouled systems?
A. No. However, there is a slight tendency over time to reduce deposit thickness, as the polymers in No-Rosion continually pass over existing deposit surfaces, slowly putting them back into solution.
Q. What makes today’s new “Extended Life” antifreeze blends different?
A. Extended Life antifreeze does not contain non-organic silicates as corrosion inhibitors. Rather, it contains 100% organic materials called carboxylates, which tend to stay in solution better over time than silicates. If/when carboxylates become insoluble, carboxylate gels are far less abrasive then silicate gels, thus not causing damage to the water pump. This allows an extended service interval of 5 years for vehicles which started with Extended Life antifreeze as factory fill.
Q. Should I convert my car’s cooling system to “Extended Life” antifreeze?
A. It is NOT recommended. The carboxylates in orange-colored Extended Life antifreeze require 3,000 miles of driving before they “passivate” the metal surfaces in a cooling system – whereas silicates in traditional green-colored antifreeze passivate after as little as 20 miles of driving. Passivation involves the electrochemical formation of a protective surface film that bonds to the metal, preventing corrosion. The mechanism of passivation is reliant upon flow and heat. Obviously these two conditions are absent when an engine is not run for extended periods of times, as is frequently the case with antique/collector cars and race cars.
Through research, Applied Chemical Specialties has observed that passivation is a dynamic process, in which surfaces films continually slough off and replace themselves from residual inhibitor contained within the surrounding coolant solution. Therefore, if one begins with metal surfaces that were originally passivated with silicates from traditional antifreeze, and then switches to the carboxlate-containing antifreeze, an interesting thing occurs. As the existing silicate film sloughs off, there is no replacement silicate present in the surrounding coolant to re-passivate. And because there will be little, if any, exposed metal to which the carboxylates can electrochemically bond, the mechanism of carboxylate passivation remains incomplete. The technical term used to describe this breakdown is “bridging.” As time passes, silicate passivation deteriorates, and carboxylate passivation remains incomplete. The net effect is a metal surface that progressively loses corrosion protection. Over time, this leads to damage and component failure.
Q. What have antifreeze manufacturers done to address this issue of “bridging?”
A. They have warned dealerships and consumers, via various service bulletins, not to mix green, traditional blends with orange, Extended Life blends, and noted this would negate the 5 year extended life service performance of the product.
Q. What if my vehicle came with Extended Life antifreeze as factory fill?
A. Continue using it. If it has never been contaminated with traditional silicate-based antifreeze, it will provide the 5 year service interval as advertised by the manufacturers. And add No-Rosion, as it is fully compatible with the carboxylates in Extended Life antifreeze, and still provides a full range of incremental benefits, including enhanced corrosion and electrolysis protection.
Q. What is the chemistry behind the yellow-colored “Universal Extended Life” antifreeze?
A. This is a “hybrid” antifreeze, similar to what has been used in Europe in prior years. It is a low-silicate blend with carboxylates and other organic inhibitors. It is marketed for use with either traditional green-colored or Extended-Life orange-colored antifreeze.
Q. How does No-Rosion prevent electrolysis and galvanic action between dissimilar metals?
A. Electrolysis occurs when a very small electrical current passes between metals having different electronegativities, such as iron and aluminum. Various contaminants in coolant allow it to function as an electrolyte solution, causing the more electronegative metal (aluminum) to gradually be dissolved. No-Rosion contains a premium ingredient called “molybdate,” a form of the semi-precious metal “molybdenum.” Via a process known as “electrocrystallization,” molybdate forms a molecular-thick film on the surface of aluminum that inhibits the transfer of electrons, thus almost completely preventing damage from electrolysis.
Q. Is this more effective than using a sacrifical anode, such as zinc or magnesium?
A. Yes. While sacrificial anodes may provide some localized protection within close vicinity of the anode, the protection does not reach all remote areas of the system, whereas the molybdate in No-Rosion provides complete protection to the entire system.
Q. Why don’t antifreeze manufacturers blend molybdate into their formulations?
A. The inclusion of molybdate in the No-Rosion formula adds significant cost. Not only is the raw material ingredient very expensive, it adds significant complexity to the blending process. This is just not cost-effective for large manufacturers of antifreeze.
Q. How does No-Rosion prevent wet sleeve cylinder liner cavitation erosion?
A. The area where the coolant comes into contact with the metal wet sleeve cylinder liners is extremely hot. Localized boiling occurs, regardless of coolant type. As the coolant nears the boiling phase, tiny vacuoles are formed in the coolant solution. The vibration of the cylinder liners from the running of the engine causes these vacuoles to implode. The countless implosions of vacuoles cause the metal surfaces of the liners to slowly erode. No-Rosion contains an ingredient called nitrite, which forms a thin oxide film that protects the metal surfaces of wet sleeve cylinder liners when the vacuoles implode, thus preventing erosion.
Q. What type of water is best to use as coolant?
A. Many people have “heard” distilled/deionized water is best to use in a cooling system. This is WRONG. While it certainly is true that distilled water’s purity prevents electrolysis and scale/deposit formation, it unfortunately comes with a potentially very damaging side effect. During the distillation/deionization process, water is vaporized into it’s gaseous phase, so all impurities are left behind. These impurities include a number of minerals, including calcium and magnesium – the two components of “hardness.” The water is then condensed back into it’s liquid phase, so the resulting liquid is pure water – in fact, some of the purest water on earth. The problem is that when water is distilled, or “stripped” of impurities, the resulting solution is composed of chemically imbalanced “ions.” This leaves distilled water “electrochemically hungry,” so it will actually strip electrons from the metals in a cooling system as it attempts to chemically re-balance itself. As it chemically removes electrons from the cooling system metals, it does damage that will eventually lead to leaks and system failure. Using distilled/deionized water in combination with 50% antifreeze is fine, as the distilled/deionized water will seek and find electrochemical balance from the various chemical ingredients in the antifreeze mixture. However, distilled/deionized water should NEVER be used as straight coolant, no matter what additive is used. And rain water is NOT advised, as environmental pollutants can cause rainwater to be acidic in pH (i.e. "acid rain"), which will cause corrosion and various problems.
The best type of water to use as coolant is softened water – especially if you run straight water coolant, without antifreeze. During the water softening process, the same impurities and minerals are removed from water as the distillation process – but with one very important distinction. Rather than STRIPPING the impurities from water, softening EXCHANGES the impurities with a sodium ion. The resulting solution is electrochemically stable and ionically balanced, making softened water very stable, pure, and non-threatening to cooling system metals. It should be added, there seems to be a perceptual issue with regard to usage of softened water. Many mistakenly believe that because SALT is added to water softeners, softened water must contain salt, a substance known to be very corrosive. Nothing could be further from the truth. The salt that’s added to a water softener is NaCl, or sodium chloride. During the softening process, only the sodium ion is exchanged into the water, whereas chloride ions are removed when the softener is regenerated. Therefore, softened water does NOT contain corrosive salt.
Q. What are the benefits of using softened water?
A. Soft water lacks the impurities of tap water. When used as coolant, it will not act as an electrolyte, thereby minimizing damage from electrolysis. And it will not form antifreeze gels and scales/deposits, which reduces the possibility of eventual overheating. However, it should be noted that regardless of whether tap water or softened water is used, No-Rosion prevents these types of damage. This is one of the important benefits of the product, since not everybody has easy access to softened water at all times.
Q. For long storage periods, should I drain the coolant and leave the system dry?
A. No. The single biggest enemy to metals in a cooling system is air – specifically, the oxygen contained in air. This is because oxygen is the key driver, or chemical component, to the corrosion process. For example, when it comes to iron components, the chemical equation for corrosion (i.e. the formation of “rust”) is as follows:
Fe + O2 + H2O => Fe2O3*H2O + H+
…where “Fe” is iron, O2 is oxygen, H2O is water, and Fe2O3*H2O is “rust.” Therefore, if a system is devoid of oxygen, it is chemically impossible for the corrosion process to take place. Unfortunately, there is nearly always some amount of oxygen in liquid solutions. Water typically contains what is known as “dissolved oxygen” (i.e. oxygen that is not in gaseous phase). Dissolved oxygen will drive the corrosion process. For this reason, No-Rosion contains a premium ingredient known as an “oxygen scavenger,” which chemically removes dissolved oxygen from either a 50/50 mix or straight water coolant – preventing corrosion. Importantly, No-Rosion is the only coolant additive available on the market today that contains a commercial grade oxygen scavenger.
With this in mind, one can easily understand why draining a cooling system and storing it “dry” is the wrong thing to do. Draining the system introduces enormous quantities of air (and therefore oxygen) to metal surfaces. When combined with even the slightest amount of humidity, the corrosion process will thrive, and the system will corrode – badly. Many museums have made this error, only to discover this fact many years later when they attempt to return vehicles to the road for driving. For this reason, No-Rosion is used by many world-class automotive museums in their long-term preservation efforts.
Q. Does No-Rosion pass ASTM tests?
A. Yes. It far exceeds all ASTM D2570 corrosion standards, as demonstrated by the following laboratory test data:
Actual with No-Rosion
ATSM Acceptable
Antifreeze "X"
(without No-Rosion)
Brass
3
30
11
Aluminum
0
60
14
Iron 0 30 12 Copper 7 30 11 Steel 0 30 6 Lead Solder
0
60
5
*Corrosion loss (in milligrams) after 7 weeks, using ASTM-simulated corrosive water, 190o F., 23 gal/min, 7 weeks duration.
Q. Is No-Rosion compatible with stop-leak and water-wetting coolant additives?
A. Yes, there are no compatibility issues between No-Rosion and these type of other additives.
Q. Will No-Rosion cause any damage to plastic or rubber cooling system components?
A. No. No-Rosion will not cause premature drying, cracking, or failure of rubber or plastic components.
Q. What is the shelf-life of No-Rosion?
A. 5 years. No-Rosion should be stored in temperatures between 30o F. and 90o F. The product freezes at approximately 10o F., and boils at approximately 218o F. It therefore does NOT provide freeze or boilover protection when used at recommended dosages.
Q. How does No-Rosion benefit the environment?
A. Because No-Rosion extends the effective life of antifreeze to 5 years, this means less toxic antifreeze is introduced to the environment, due to extended service intervals and less frequent draining and flushing.
Q. How does No-Rosion compare to other cooling system corrosion inhibitors?
A. No-Rosion is the ONLY product on the market today that offers complete, laboratory-documented and fleet-tested 5 year protection against corrosion, electrolysis, deposit/scale formation, and wet sleeve cylinder liner cavitation erosion.
Q. How will No-Rosion save me time and money?
A. Less frequent draining and flushing of coolant saves you time. And less frequent refilling of antifreeze saves you money, because you purchase antifreeze less often. Less corrosion and damage to cooling system metals significantly lengthens the effective life of radiators, heater cores, water pumps, and engine components, meaning you’ll encounter fewer expensive failures and breakdowns.
Its the radiator and your water pump that is in the most jeapardy and even changing your antifreeze regularly is only a partial cure.
The real secret to zero corrossion is...
Welcome to No-Rosion, protect your car or truck's cooling and fuel systems.
Yes, it can last alot longer than your antifreeze, but dont wait, swap it out with your antifreeze.
Folks, if you hardly drive your Viper, you are just asking for it. Also, use "softened" water, not distilled water.
I also use the cap and it goes bad in about 2 years.
Belt and suspenders.
There will be a written exam on the folowing...
Q. How do I use No-Rosion Cooling System Corrosion Inhibitor?
A. With your vehicle’s engine cool and ignition off, open the radiator cap and pour in the proper dosage of No-Rosion. Then, start the engine, turn the heat on high, and allow the car to run for at least 10 minutes, or until you know the thermostat has opened. This will circulate No-Rosion through the entire system, thus providing full protection to the radiator, heater core, water pump, cylinder heads, engine block, and intake manifold.
Q. What if my vehicle’s cooling system is already full?
A. Open the petcock on the bottom of the radiator, and drain approximately one pint of coolant in order to create sufficient additional capacity for the addition of No-Rosion. If it is easier, siphon or use a pipette to extract the coolant from the top of the radiator. No-Rosion may also be added to the coolant expansion tank or reservoir, as long as the vehicle is driven regularly. It takes approximately 4-5 complete heat-up and cool-down cycles for the No-Rosion to make its way into the cooling system via the coolant reservoir.
Q. How much No-Rosion is required for complete protection from corrosion, electrolysis, and scale build-up?
A. One pint of No-Rosion treats cooling systems 10-22 quarts in capacity. For systems less than 10 quarts, add 1 ½ ounces per quart of coolant. For systems over 22 quarts, add one pint, plus 1 ½ additional ounces for every quart of capacity over 22 quarts. In straight water coolant applications, add 1 ½ pints No-Rosion (50% more than normal) to treat cooling systems 10-22 quarts in capacity.
Q. How often should No-Rosion be added in order to maintain full protection?
A. The corrosion inhibitors in No-Rosion are slowly depleted over time. For this reason, it is recommended that a treatment be added once every year or 30,000 miles – whichever comes first. Flush and refill after the 5th year.
Q. Is No-Rosion compatible with the antifreeze currently in my vehicle’s cooling system?
A. Yes. It is compatible with all types of antifreeze, including ethylene glycol and non-toxic propylene glycol. This includes traditional silicate-based (green-colored), Extended Life (orange-colored), and Universal Extended Life (yellow-colored) antifreezes.
Q. Why is it necessary to flush a cooling system in the first place?
A. Without No-Rosion, it is necessary to flush a cooling system every 18-24 months. Glycol in antifreeze breaks down over time to form glycolic acid (a weak acid) that reduces the pH of coolant and causes corrosion. Byproducts of combustion also contaminate coolant, causing further acidic degradation of coolant. At these lower pH levels, tiny rust particles begin to form, and combine with “silicates” in antifreeze and “hardness” in water to form insoluble gels. The gels reduce coolant flow through radiator tubes and reduces the system’s ability to transfer heat. Flushing removes harmful glycolic acid, combustion contaminants, and antifreeze gels.
Q. Does application of No-Rosion allow me to flush less often?
A. Yes. No-Rosion contains an ingredient called borate, which adds “reserve alkalinity” to coolant. Alkalinity continually buffers the pH of the coolant to safe levels. This prevents acidic degradation of coolant, and associated damage from glycolic acid and acidic combustion byproduct contaminants. No-Rosion also contains polymer dispersants that prevent the formation of antifreeze gels. For this reason, the proper application of No-Rosion allows the time between cooling system flushes to be extended to 5 years.
Q. Will No-Rosion “rejuvenate” old, broken down antifreeze?
A. Yes, but only to a degree. The sodium hydroxide in No-Rosion will elevate the pH of coolant to a degree, thus neutralizing glycolic acid and creating a slight “rejuvenating” effect. However, antifreeze more than 3-4 years old should be drained, flushed, and refilled with fresh antifreeze prior to application of No-Rosion.
Q. Why is No-Rosion dark pink in color?
A. The color serves a functional purpose. No-Rosion contains a pH-indicator called “phenolphthalein,” which turns pink above a pH of 8.5, and goes clear at a pH below 8.5. Because No-Rosion was originally formulated for the treatment of large, high-dollar industrial cooling systems, the pH-indicator allows industrial engineers a quick and easy way to identify the pH of system waters.
Q. Why does No-Rosion seem to lose its color when it is added to my vehicle’s cooling system?
A. When No-Rosion is added to an automotive cooling system, it immediately acts to neutralize any existing weak acids. Therefore, you may notice a loss of the pink color as No-Rosion’s alkalinity acts to neutralize acids. Dyes in antifreeze also interfere with No-Rosion’s pH indicator, thus making this effect difficult to distinguish unless plain water coolant is used.
Q. Is there any advantage to using straight water and No-Rosion as coolant, WITHOUT ANTIFREEZE?
A. Yes. Straight water has nearly TWICE the heat transfer capacity as glycol-based antifreeze, and nearly 50% more heat transfer capacity than a 50/50 mix. This causes cooling systems containing glycol to run hotter, since the transfer of heat from cylinder heads to coolant, and then from coolant to the outside environment via the radiator is far less efficient. This is particularly the case if your vehicle was built prior to the 1950’s. Engines in older cars were originally designed to use alcohol for antifreeze, and running today’s viscous glycol blends can cause overheating. Glycol also gels in the presence of engine oil, which can cause severe bearing damage and engine failure if even slight amounts of glycol coolant seeps into the crankcase. Older engines having cylinder heads torqued to less than 40 ft/lbs can fall prey to this type of damage. However, straight water coolant leaves system metals vulnerable to corrosion. No-Rosion provides 100% corrosion protection when used with straight water coolant, thus completely solving this problem.
Q. What is the most common cause of overheating?
A. Over time, silicates in antifreeze and hardness in water become insoluble, and combine to form antifreeze “gels.” This process is accelerated by using aged antifreeze, or tap water with a high concentration of hardness. As antifreeze gels circulate through the system, they reduce coolant flow through radiator tubes, which in turn reduces heat transfer and increases operating temperatures. If antifreeze is not drained, flushed, and refilled every 18-24 months, gels adhere to high heat-transfer areas, baking onto metal surfaces to form “scales” and “deposits.” Scales only 1/16” thick decrease heat transfer by 40%, thus causing overheating.
Q. What causes damage to the water pump?
A. Antifreeze gels, due to their chemical composition, are very gritty. Think of them as “liquid sandpaper.” As they pass through the working parts of the water pump, they erode the impeller, which can contribute to increased operating temperatures due to decreased coolant flow. Eventually the gels make their way to the seals of the water pump, causing leaks and water pump failure.
Q. How does No-Rosion solve the problem of antifreeze gels?
A. No-Rosion contains complex polymer “dispersants” that prevent the silicates in antifreeze and the hardness in water from becoming insoluble. It also lubricates the working parts and seals of water pumps, preventing associated damage and failure.
Q. Will No-Rosion actively clean or remove existing scales and deposits in already-fouled systems?
A. No. However, there is a slight tendency over time to reduce deposit thickness, as the polymers in No-Rosion continually pass over existing deposit surfaces, slowly putting them back into solution.
Q. What makes today’s new “Extended Life” antifreeze blends different?
A. Extended Life antifreeze does not contain non-organic silicates as corrosion inhibitors. Rather, it contains 100% organic materials called carboxylates, which tend to stay in solution better over time than silicates. If/when carboxylates become insoluble, carboxylate gels are far less abrasive then silicate gels, thus not causing damage to the water pump. This allows an extended service interval of 5 years for vehicles which started with Extended Life antifreeze as factory fill.
Q. Should I convert my car’s cooling system to “Extended Life” antifreeze?
A. It is NOT recommended. The carboxylates in orange-colored Extended Life antifreeze require 3,000 miles of driving before they “passivate” the metal surfaces in a cooling system – whereas silicates in traditional green-colored antifreeze passivate after as little as 20 miles of driving. Passivation involves the electrochemical formation of a protective surface film that bonds to the metal, preventing corrosion. The mechanism of passivation is reliant upon flow and heat. Obviously these two conditions are absent when an engine is not run for extended periods of times, as is frequently the case with antique/collector cars and race cars.
Through research, Applied Chemical Specialties has observed that passivation is a dynamic process, in which surfaces films continually slough off and replace themselves from residual inhibitor contained within the surrounding coolant solution. Therefore, if one begins with metal surfaces that were originally passivated with silicates from traditional antifreeze, and then switches to the carboxlate-containing antifreeze, an interesting thing occurs. As the existing silicate film sloughs off, there is no replacement silicate present in the surrounding coolant to re-passivate. And because there will be little, if any, exposed metal to which the carboxylates can electrochemically bond, the mechanism of carboxylate passivation remains incomplete. The technical term used to describe this breakdown is “bridging.” As time passes, silicate passivation deteriorates, and carboxylate passivation remains incomplete. The net effect is a metal surface that progressively loses corrosion protection. Over time, this leads to damage and component failure.
Q. What have antifreeze manufacturers done to address this issue of “bridging?”
A. They have warned dealerships and consumers, via various service bulletins, not to mix green, traditional blends with orange, Extended Life blends, and noted this would negate the 5 year extended life service performance of the product.
Q. What if my vehicle came with Extended Life antifreeze as factory fill?
A. Continue using it. If it has never been contaminated with traditional silicate-based antifreeze, it will provide the 5 year service interval as advertised by the manufacturers. And add No-Rosion, as it is fully compatible with the carboxylates in Extended Life antifreeze, and still provides a full range of incremental benefits, including enhanced corrosion and electrolysis protection.
Q. What is the chemistry behind the yellow-colored “Universal Extended Life” antifreeze?
A. This is a “hybrid” antifreeze, similar to what has been used in Europe in prior years. It is a low-silicate blend with carboxylates and other organic inhibitors. It is marketed for use with either traditional green-colored or Extended-Life orange-colored antifreeze.
Q. How does No-Rosion prevent electrolysis and galvanic action between dissimilar metals?
A. Electrolysis occurs when a very small electrical current passes between metals having different electronegativities, such as iron and aluminum. Various contaminants in coolant allow it to function as an electrolyte solution, causing the more electronegative metal (aluminum) to gradually be dissolved. No-Rosion contains a premium ingredient called “molybdate,” a form of the semi-precious metal “molybdenum.” Via a process known as “electrocrystallization,” molybdate forms a molecular-thick film on the surface of aluminum that inhibits the transfer of electrons, thus almost completely preventing damage from electrolysis.
Q. Is this more effective than using a sacrifical anode, such as zinc or magnesium?
A. Yes. While sacrificial anodes may provide some localized protection within close vicinity of the anode, the protection does not reach all remote areas of the system, whereas the molybdate in No-Rosion provides complete protection to the entire system.
Q. Why don’t antifreeze manufacturers blend molybdate into their formulations?
A. The inclusion of molybdate in the No-Rosion formula adds significant cost. Not only is the raw material ingredient very expensive, it adds significant complexity to the blending process. This is just not cost-effective for large manufacturers of antifreeze.
Q. How does No-Rosion prevent wet sleeve cylinder liner cavitation erosion?
A. The area where the coolant comes into contact with the metal wet sleeve cylinder liners is extremely hot. Localized boiling occurs, regardless of coolant type. As the coolant nears the boiling phase, tiny vacuoles are formed in the coolant solution. The vibration of the cylinder liners from the running of the engine causes these vacuoles to implode. The countless implosions of vacuoles cause the metal surfaces of the liners to slowly erode. No-Rosion contains an ingredient called nitrite, which forms a thin oxide film that protects the metal surfaces of wet sleeve cylinder liners when the vacuoles implode, thus preventing erosion.
Q. What type of water is best to use as coolant?
A. Many people have “heard” distilled/deionized water is best to use in a cooling system. This is WRONG. While it certainly is true that distilled water’s purity prevents electrolysis and scale/deposit formation, it unfortunately comes with a potentially very damaging side effect. During the distillation/deionization process, water is vaporized into it’s gaseous phase, so all impurities are left behind. These impurities include a number of minerals, including calcium and magnesium – the two components of “hardness.” The water is then condensed back into it’s liquid phase, so the resulting liquid is pure water – in fact, some of the purest water on earth. The problem is that when water is distilled, or “stripped” of impurities, the resulting solution is composed of chemically imbalanced “ions.” This leaves distilled water “electrochemically hungry,” so it will actually strip electrons from the metals in a cooling system as it attempts to chemically re-balance itself. As it chemically removes electrons from the cooling system metals, it does damage that will eventually lead to leaks and system failure. Using distilled/deionized water in combination with 50% antifreeze is fine, as the distilled/deionized water will seek and find electrochemical balance from the various chemical ingredients in the antifreeze mixture. However, distilled/deionized water should NEVER be used as straight coolant, no matter what additive is used. And rain water is NOT advised, as environmental pollutants can cause rainwater to be acidic in pH (i.e. "acid rain"), which will cause corrosion and various problems.
The best type of water to use as coolant is softened water – especially if you run straight water coolant, without antifreeze. During the water softening process, the same impurities and minerals are removed from water as the distillation process – but with one very important distinction. Rather than STRIPPING the impurities from water, softening EXCHANGES the impurities with a sodium ion. The resulting solution is electrochemically stable and ionically balanced, making softened water very stable, pure, and non-threatening to cooling system metals. It should be added, there seems to be a perceptual issue with regard to usage of softened water. Many mistakenly believe that because SALT is added to water softeners, softened water must contain salt, a substance known to be very corrosive. Nothing could be further from the truth. The salt that’s added to a water softener is NaCl, or sodium chloride. During the softening process, only the sodium ion is exchanged into the water, whereas chloride ions are removed when the softener is regenerated. Therefore, softened water does NOT contain corrosive salt.
Q. What are the benefits of using softened water?
A. Soft water lacks the impurities of tap water. When used as coolant, it will not act as an electrolyte, thereby minimizing damage from electrolysis. And it will not form antifreeze gels and scales/deposits, which reduces the possibility of eventual overheating. However, it should be noted that regardless of whether tap water or softened water is used, No-Rosion prevents these types of damage. This is one of the important benefits of the product, since not everybody has easy access to softened water at all times.
Q. For long storage periods, should I drain the coolant and leave the system dry?
A. No. The single biggest enemy to metals in a cooling system is air – specifically, the oxygen contained in air. This is because oxygen is the key driver, or chemical component, to the corrosion process. For example, when it comes to iron components, the chemical equation for corrosion (i.e. the formation of “rust”) is as follows:
Fe + O2 + H2O => Fe2O3*H2O + H+
…where “Fe” is iron, O2 is oxygen, H2O is water, and Fe2O3*H2O is “rust.” Therefore, if a system is devoid of oxygen, it is chemically impossible for the corrosion process to take place. Unfortunately, there is nearly always some amount of oxygen in liquid solutions. Water typically contains what is known as “dissolved oxygen” (i.e. oxygen that is not in gaseous phase). Dissolved oxygen will drive the corrosion process. For this reason, No-Rosion contains a premium ingredient known as an “oxygen scavenger,” which chemically removes dissolved oxygen from either a 50/50 mix or straight water coolant – preventing corrosion. Importantly, No-Rosion is the only coolant additive available on the market today that contains a commercial grade oxygen scavenger.
With this in mind, one can easily understand why draining a cooling system and storing it “dry” is the wrong thing to do. Draining the system introduces enormous quantities of air (and therefore oxygen) to metal surfaces. When combined with even the slightest amount of humidity, the corrosion process will thrive, and the system will corrode – badly. Many museums have made this error, only to discover this fact many years later when they attempt to return vehicles to the road for driving. For this reason, No-Rosion is used by many world-class automotive museums in their long-term preservation efforts.
Q. Does No-Rosion pass ASTM tests?
A. Yes. It far exceeds all ASTM D2570 corrosion standards, as demonstrated by the following laboratory test data:
Corrosion loss (in milligrams) after 7 weeks*
Metal Actual with No-Rosion
ATSM Acceptable
Antifreeze "X"
(without No-Rosion)
Brass
3
30
11
Aluminum
0
60
14
Iron 0 30 12 Copper 7 30 11 Steel 0 30 6 Lead Solder
0
60
5
*Corrosion loss (in milligrams) after 7 weeks, using ASTM-simulated corrosive water, 190o F., 23 gal/min, 7 weeks duration.
Q. Is No-Rosion compatible with stop-leak and water-wetting coolant additives?
A. Yes, there are no compatibility issues between No-Rosion and these type of other additives.
Q. Will No-Rosion cause any damage to plastic or rubber cooling system components?
A. No. No-Rosion will not cause premature drying, cracking, or failure of rubber or plastic components.
Q. What is the shelf-life of No-Rosion?
A. 5 years. No-Rosion should be stored in temperatures between 30o F. and 90o F. The product freezes at approximately 10o F., and boils at approximately 218o F. It therefore does NOT provide freeze or boilover protection when used at recommended dosages.
Q. How does No-Rosion benefit the environment?
A. Because No-Rosion extends the effective life of antifreeze to 5 years, this means less toxic antifreeze is introduced to the environment, due to extended service intervals and less frequent draining and flushing.
Q. How does No-Rosion compare to other cooling system corrosion inhibitors?
A. No-Rosion is the ONLY product on the market today that offers complete, laboratory-documented and fleet-tested 5 year protection against corrosion, electrolysis, deposit/scale formation, and wet sleeve cylinder liner cavitation erosion.
Q. How will No-Rosion save me time and money?
A. Less frequent draining and flushing of coolant saves you time. And less frequent refilling of antifreeze saves you money, because you purchase antifreeze less often. Less corrosion and damage to cooling system metals significantly lengthens the effective life of radiators, heater cores, water pumps, and engine components, meaning you’ll encounter fewer expensive failures and breakdowns.
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CROM
Viper Owner
Cliff Notes?
2snakes4us
Enthusiast
thank guys....now i have a Headache
Ron
Enthusiast
WOW!
When is the last time you heard of a properly maintained cooling system dissolving an engine block?
It's not that difficult.....
When is the last time you heard of a properly maintained cooling system dissolving an engine block?
It's not that difficult.....
dave6666
Enthusiast
The No-Roid formula... Do you drink it or sit on it?
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D
DAMN YANKEE
Guest
Hey you asked.....
dave6666
Enthusiast
thank guys....now i have a Headache
I bought one because after 27 years in electrochemistry I understand anodes and cathodes and sacrificial anodes and cathodic protection. I trust the team of PhD electrochemists here too.
Plus the cap was only $20.
At the beer store, I call $20 Tuesday.
If electrolysis is not an issue with car radiators, why did my Ron Davis unit come with a whole page on it? Including using a voltmeter to measure and quantify it.
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
BZZZT!!
I got as far as "use softened water" and you're wrong. Water with salt in it means you are assisting ion exchange = corrosion. Look at any reputable coolant supplier's recommendations, they'll recommend de-ionized, de-mineralized or distilled water. Then when you are adding that the cap goes bad in two years - that's not a chemical reaction I would like going on that rapidly in my engine.
No, I didn't read the product literature... not gonna.
I got as far as "use softened water" and you're wrong. Water with salt in it means you are assisting ion exchange = corrosion. Look at any reputable coolant supplier's recommendations, they'll recommend de-ionized, de-mineralized or distilled water. Then when you are adding that the cap goes bad in two years - that's not a chemical reaction I would like going on that rapidly in my engine.
No, I didn't read the product literature... not gonna.
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
More discussion on radiator caps
http://forums.viperclub.org/rt-10-gts-discussions/569968-radiator-cap-part-numbers.html
http://forums.viperclub.org/rt-10-gts-discussions/569968-radiator-cap-part-numbers.html
D
DAMN YANKEE
Guest
Tom, geeze sounds serious!
Softened means reveresed osmosis, not salted. Missing minerals will be taken out of the metals..
And definately NOT distilled....Distilled water is for guys that listen to Car Talk for their advice....
Here it is, Tom....just read the last two sentences if you can't/won't read the whole thing..
Q. What type of water is best to use as coolant?
A. Many people have “heard” distilled/deionized water is best to use in a cooling system. This is WRONG. While it certainly is true that distilled water’s purity prevents electrolysis and scale/deposit formation, it unfortunately comes with a potentially very damaging side effect. During the distillation/deionization process, water is vaporized into it’s gaseous phase, so all impurities are left behind. These impurities include a number of minerals, including calcium and magnesium – the two components of “hardness.” The water is then condensed back into it’s liquid phase, so the resulting liquid is pure water – in fact, some of the purest water on earth. The problem is that when water is distilled, or “stripped” of impurities, the resulting solution is composed of chemically imbalanced “ions.” This leaves distilled water “electrochemically hungry,” so it will actually strip electrons from the metals in a cooling system as it attempts to chemically re-balance itself. As it chemically removes electrons from the cooling system metals, it does damage that will eventually lead to leaks and system failure. Using distilled/deionized water in combination with 50% antifreeze is fine, as the distilled/deionized water will seek and find electrochemical balance from the various chemical ingredients in the antifreeze mixture. However, distilled/deionized water should NEVER be used as straight coolant, no matter what additive is used. And rain water is NOT advised, as environmental pollutants can cause rainwater to be acidic in pH (i.e. "acid rain"), which will cause corrosion and various problems.
The best type of water to use as coolant is softened water – especially if you run straight water coolant, without antifreeze. During the water softening process, the same impurities and minerals are removed from water as the distillation process – but with one very important distinction. Rather than STRIPPING the impurities from water, softening EXCHANGES the impurities with a sodium ion. The resulting solution is electrochemically stable and ionically balanced, making softened water very stable, pure, and non-threatening to cooling system metals. It should be added, there seems to be a perceptual issue with regard to usage of softened water. Many mistakenly believe that because SALT is added to water softeners, softened water must contain salt, a substance known to be very corrosive. Nothing could be further from the truth. The salt that’s added to a water softener is NaCl, or sodium chloride. During the softening process, only the sodium ion is exchanged into the water, whereas chloride ions are removed when the softener is regenerated. Therefore, softened water does NOT contain corrosive salt.
Softened means reveresed osmosis, not salted. Missing minerals will be taken out of the metals..
And definately NOT distilled....Distilled water is for guys that listen to Car Talk for their advice....
Here it is, Tom....just read the last two sentences if you can't/won't read the whole thing..
Q. What type of water is best to use as coolant?
A. Many people have “heard” distilled/deionized water is best to use in a cooling system. This is WRONG. While it certainly is true that distilled water’s purity prevents electrolysis and scale/deposit formation, it unfortunately comes with a potentially very damaging side effect. During the distillation/deionization process, water is vaporized into it’s gaseous phase, so all impurities are left behind. These impurities include a number of minerals, including calcium and magnesium – the two components of “hardness.” The water is then condensed back into it’s liquid phase, so the resulting liquid is pure water – in fact, some of the purest water on earth. The problem is that when water is distilled, or “stripped” of impurities, the resulting solution is composed of chemically imbalanced “ions.” This leaves distilled water “electrochemically hungry,” so it will actually strip electrons from the metals in a cooling system as it attempts to chemically re-balance itself. As it chemically removes electrons from the cooling system metals, it does damage that will eventually lead to leaks and system failure. Using distilled/deionized water in combination with 50% antifreeze is fine, as the distilled/deionized water will seek and find electrochemical balance from the various chemical ingredients in the antifreeze mixture. However, distilled/deionized water should NEVER be used as straight coolant, no matter what additive is used. And rain water is NOT advised, as environmental pollutants can cause rainwater to be acidic in pH (i.e. "acid rain"), which will cause corrosion and various problems.
The best type of water to use as coolant is softened water – especially if you run straight water coolant, without antifreeze. During the water softening process, the same impurities and minerals are removed from water as the distillation process – but with one very important distinction. Rather than STRIPPING the impurities from water, softening EXCHANGES the impurities with a sodium ion. The resulting solution is electrochemically stable and ionically balanced, making softened water very stable, pure, and non-threatening to cooling system metals. It should be added, there seems to be a perceptual issue with regard to usage of softened water. Many mistakenly believe that because SALT is added to water softeners, softened water must contain salt, a substance known to be very corrosive. Nothing could be further from the truth. The salt that’s added to a water softener is NaCl, or sodium chloride. During the softening process, only the sodium ion is exchanged into the water, whereas chloride ions are removed when the softener is regenerated. Therefore, softened water does NOT contain corrosive salt.
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Ron
Enthusiast
At what point is equilibrium reached?
D
DAMN YANKEE
Guest
4 weeks upon use of a good product...and actually driving your rig.
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Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
BZZZT! BZZZT! BZZZT!
Softened water replaces the minerals with another ion called salt. Doesn't sea water cause rust? It's the ions....
And "pure water" is not "hungry water". BZZZT! on the BS meter.
Softened water replaces the minerals with another ion called salt. Doesn't sea water cause rust? It's the ions....
And "pure water" is not "hungry water". BZZZT! on the BS meter.
D
DAMN YANKEE
Guest
Ok, thats it...your off my Xmas card list...Nah, Im just kidding, Tom....
All these people do all day long is work to produce a product that protects engine parts that come in contact with radiator fluids...
They dont need risk their reputation over whether or not their product is mixed with tap water, distilled water, softened water, filtered water or beer. All they want is to make sure that the radiator fluid moving through the system is balanced and corrossion free. Of that they are the best in the business. Ive used their products for years and they are exceptional, especially in rough situations (maritime). All they do is test, test, test, test...Im going with them.
No distilled wate, yep it rebalances...use softened water...reverse osmosis and then softened is best
Here is a little ditty from the Water Quality Association....
Water Quality Answers
Is softened water more corrosive?
No.
Because the Langlier (calcium saturation) Index is lowered in water that has had calcium removed, skeptics sometimes consider softened water to be more corrosive. But softening of water via cation exchange does not make water more corrosive. In fact, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (USEPA) and the American Water Works Association have both recently corrected their enclosed brochures as to the misconception that ion exchange softening has an effect on the corrosivity of water.
WQA has recently completed a research study with Tom Sorg and Mike Schock in the USEPA Drinking Water Research Division in Cincinnati, Ohio to clarify the noncorrosive effect of the ion exchange softening process. The study is on well waters with 23 and 11 grains per gallon (gpg) total hardness and softening to less than one gpg to examine any differences between the hard and softened waters in corrosion rates and leaching from lead, copper, copper tubing with 50/50 solder, galvanized pipe, and brass. Results from the study shown no increased dissolution of lead in the softened water. The final research report is now available from the WQA Publications Department, and states the same conclusion—that ion exchange softened water does not produce higher metal levels than nonsoftened water. Research results, such as these, confirm the minimal effects of hardness minerals on corrosion.
WQA also has available other materials to show that ion exchange softening does not affect any of the factors which contribute to water corrosivity. Neither the water pH, dissolved oxygen content, TDS concentration, electrical conductivity, ammonia, chloride, or sulfide amounts, temperature, nor flow velocity are significantly altered by home water softening. While it is true that soft water will deposit less scale coating on metal surfaces, the softening itself will not change a water's corrosivity or lack of it. Corrosion of copper pipe, for example, is most often caused by oxygen concentrations in the water. Oxygen corrosion is usually found with surface water supplies and in deep well supplies in arid regions.
Municipal water systems often use calcium carbonate saturation indices to help control precipitation in city water mains. This information is useful where utilities try to lay down a protective film in hopes of retarding the rate of corrosion in municipal distribution systems. The Langlier Index (LI) is such a calcium carbonate saturation index that measures the potential of a water to deposit calcium carbonate scale. Water with an LI greater than zero tends to be of higher hardness and alkalinity and therefore to be scale forming. An LI less than zero represents water that tends to dissolve CaCO3.
However, these calcium carbonate saturation indices do not rate the corrosive tendency of the water itself, nor the effect of scale in household plumbing. While some scales are capable of such protection, scales in a household water system are often porus or soft and thus non-protective. It is rare that hardness scale formation is uniform in household plumbing, for the heaviest scale usually forms at points of greatest heat transfer and at low points in a system. In a water heater, for example, most scale forms at the bottom where heat is applied, while the top of the heater tank may show little or no scale. Thus, even in hard scale-forming water, thousands of water heaters can show that corrosion has occurred under or through the scale, or in locations where protective scale has not formed. Thus, it is clear that corrosion protection in household plumbing is not assured simply because a water heater will precipitate calcium carbonate, as indicated by various scale indices. Further, none of these indexing methods take into account the effects of dissolved oxygen, ammonia, chlorides, hydrogen sulfide and other sulfur compounds, water flow velocities, the presence or absence of solid particles or the volume of water through the system which markedly affect water corrosivity. The simple replacement of hard water calcium and magnesium with soft water sodium or potassium has no detrimental effect on water contacting materials. In fact, the nonscaling characteristic of soft water is a benefit to such pumping and plumbing appurtenances. Ion exchange water softening neither causes nor controls corrosion. Please call the Water Quality Association if you have any questions or would like to discuss any of these materials.
All these people do all day long is work to produce a product that protects engine parts that come in contact with radiator fluids...
They dont need risk their reputation over whether or not their product is mixed with tap water, distilled water, softened water, filtered water or beer. All they want is to make sure that the radiator fluid moving through the system is balanced and corrossion free. Of that they are the best in the business. Ive used their products for years and they are exceptional, especially in rough situations (maritime). All they do is test, test, test, test...Im going with them.
No distilled wate, yep it rebalances...use softened water...reverse osmosis and then softened is best
Here is a little ditty from the Water Quality Association....
Water Quality Answers
Is softened water more corrosive?
No.
Because the Langlier (calcium saturation) Index is lowered in water that has had calcium removed, skeptics sometimes consider softened water to be more corrosive. But softening of water via cation exchange does not make water more corrosive. In fact, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (USEPA) and the American Water Works Association have both recently corrected their enclosed brochures as to the misconception that ion exchange softening has an effect on the corrosivity of water.
WQA has recently completed a research study with Tom Sorg and Mike Schock in the USEPA Drinking Water Research Division in Cincinnati, Ohio to clarify the noncorrosive effect of the ion exchange softening process. The study is on well waters with 23 and 11 grains per gallon (gpg) total hardness and softening to less than one gpg to examine any differences between the hard and softened waters in corrosion rates and leaching from lead, copper, copper tubing with 50/50 solder, galvanized pipe, and brass. Results from the study shown no increased dissolution of lead in the softened water. The final research report is now available from the WQA Publications Department, and states the same conclusion—that ion exchange softened water does not produce higher metal levels than nonsoftened water. Research results, such as these, confirm the minimal effects of hardness minerals on corrosion.
WQA also has available other materials to show that ion exchange softening does not affect any of the factors which contribute to water corrosivity. Neither the water pH, dissolved oxygen content, TDS concentration, electrical conductivity, ammonia, chloride, or sulfide amounts, temperature, nor flow velocity are significantly altered by home water softening. While it is true that soft water will deposit less scale coating on metal surfaces, the softening itself will not change a water's corrosivity or lack of it. Corrosion of copper pipe, for example, is most often caused by oxygen concentrations in the water. Oxygen corrosion is usually found with surface water supplies and in deep well supplies in arid regions.
Municipal water systems often use calcium carbonate saturation indices to help control precipitation in city water mains. This information is useful where utilities try to lay down a protective film in hopes of retarding the rate of corrosion in municipal distribution systems. The Langlier Index (LI) is such a calcium carbonate saturation index that measures the potential of a water to deposit calcium carbonate scale. Water with an LI greater than zero tends to be of higher hardness and alkalinity and therefore to be scale forming. An LI less than zero represents water that tends to dissolve CaCO3.
However, these calcium carbonate saturation indices do not rate the corrosive tendency of the water itself, nor the effect of scale in household plumbing. While some scales are capable of such protection, scales in a household water system are often porus or soft and thus non-protective. It is rare that hardness scale formation is uniform in household plumbing, for the heaviest scale usually forms at points of greatest heat transfer and at low points in a system. In a water heater, for example, most scale forms at the bottom where heat is applied, while the top of the heater tank may show little or no scale. Thus, even in hard scale-forming water, thousands of water heaters can show that corrosion has occurred under or through the scale, or in locations where protective scale has not formed. Thus, it is clear that corrosion protection in household plumbing is not assured simply because a water heater will precipitate calcium carbonate, as indicated by various scale indices. Further, none of these indexing methods take into account the effects of dissolved oxygen, ammonia, chlorides, hydrogen sulfide and other sulfur compounds, water flow velocities, the presence or absence of solid particles or the volume of water through the system which markedly affect water corrosivity. The simple replacement of hard water calcium and magnesium with soft water sodium or potassium has no detrimental effect on water contacting materials. In fact, the nonscaling characteristic of soft water is a benefit to such pumping and plumbing appurtenances. Ion exchange water softening neither causes nor controls corrosion. Please call the Water Quality Association if you have any questions or would like to discuss any of these materials.
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dave6666
Enthusiast
I need to get you 2 guys a private room. With a buzzer for Tom...
BZZZT!
BZZZT!
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT!
First, I'm not going to get sidetracked by comparing municipal water use to coolant in an engine. Households don't have aluminum. Households are a one-pass system and into the drain. Households don't run at 250F. Households don't go below freezing. In my house over the last 20 years I have had copper pipes fail, water heaters leak and iron pipe rust. Houses are different than cars.
Corrosion is an electrical action since it involves the exchange of ions. Deionized water or distilled water has orders of magnitude fewer ions and very very high resistance and provide low corrosion rates. Water with ions will have lower resistance and higher corrosion rates. Lucky for most car owners, the additives in coolants are very effective and in the real world problems caused by using tap water are rare or unnoticed. But that does not excuse saying it is OK or even advantageous.
What I have an issue here with is niche data mining. Using an EPA drinking water study to gain credibility for a sacrificial anode radiator cap is not correct. Ignoring recommendations of coolant manufacturers after years and dollars of researching engine coolants, fleet testing, field experience, and no doubt demonstrating good results to the OEMs is not correct. Using marine equipment (successful as it may be) does not mean the best results for non-marine equipment. We're playing the if A = B and B = C, then A = C game.
I have a zero reputation worth keeping since I don't market coolants. But it sure is a big coincidence that every major reputable brand, all those companies that provide factory fill to the car companies, and every 50-50 premix coolant product uses or recommend distilled or de-ionized water. They could sure save a lot money if they only knew better to use tap water instead....
one more for Dave: BZZZZZZZZZZZZT!
First, I'm not going to get sidetracked by comparing municipal water use to coolant in an engine. Households don't have aluminum. Households are a one-pass system and into the drain. Households don't run at 250F. Households don't go below freezing. In my house over the last 20 years I have had copper pipes fail, water heaters leak and iron pipe rust. Houses are different than cars.
Corrosion is an electrical action since it involves the exchange of ions. Deionized water or distilled water has orders of magnitude fewer ions and very very high resistance and provide low corrosion rates. Water with ions will have lower resistance and higher corrosion rates. Lucky for most car owners, the additives in coolants are very effective and in the real world problems caused by using tap water are rare or unnoticed. But that does not excuse saying it is OK or even advantageous.
What I have an issue here with is niche data mining. Using an EPA drinking water study to gain credibility for a sacrificial anode radiator cap is not correct. Ignoring recommendations of coolant manufacturers after years and dollars of researching engine coolants, fleet testing, field experience, and no doubt demonstrating good results to the OEMs is not correct. Using marine equipment (successful as it may be) does not mean the best results for non-marine equipment. We're playing the if A = B and B = C, then A = C game.
I have a zero reputation worth keeping since I don't market coolants. But it sure is a big coincidence that every major reputable brand, all those companies that provide factory fill to the car companies, and every 50-50 premix coolant product uses or recommend distilled or de-ionized water. They could sure save a lot money if they only knew better to use tap water instead....
one more for Dave: BZZZZZZZZZZZZT!
D
DAMN YANKEE
Guest
Works for me....
Condi Rice school of practical negotiations....
Condi Rice school of practical negotiations....
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dave6666
Enthusiast
Wonder what the mental status of Harleyman is now...
Getting the anode cap or what?!?
Getting the anode cap or what?!?
D
DAMN YANKEE
Guest
he is using a 50 part sand, 50 part sugar mix.....
