Installed Roe 14" front brake kit

Purdue_Boiler_Viper

Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 20, 2005
Posts
912
Reaction score
2
Location
Indy
Now move the Gen 2 fronts to the rear. :)

Dave can sell you the parts. The Roe front is a great upgrade to a Gen 2. But, re-use those fronts on those crappy rear Gen 2s and you will be astonished. You will stop so fast you will get a headache! :omg:
 

GBS

Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Posts
637
Reaction score
0
Location
South Florida
Looks good! I want to upgrade the brakes on my 02 ACR but I'm still not sure want I'm going to go with. I probably go with 6 piston Brembos with 14" rotors in the front and 4 pistion 13" rotors in the rear. I have 8 pistion Brembos on another one of my car's but I love the 18" BBS ACR Wheels. I don't think I could bring myself to go to a different 19" wheel.
 

Bluvenm97

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 10, 2005
Posts
209
Reaction score
0
Location
AZ, USA
I did the same thing on the fronts on my GTS. For the rears, I did the Roe 2 PC slotted rotors/aluminum hats, and Tom's 40mm uprade calipers. The brake balance between the two seems to be just about right that way.

Moving the old fronts to the rear is not only really heavy and more complicated, but you will have to make adjustments to get your brake balance back to where it needs to be..

Just my .02
 

SilverSnake

Viper Owner
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Posts
328
Reaction score
0
Location
Phoenix,AZ
I did the same thing on the fronts on my GTS. For the rears, I did the Roe 2 PC slotted rotors/aluminum hats, and Tom's 40mm uprade calipers. The brake balance between the two seems to be just about right that way.

Moving the old fronts to the rear is not only really heavy and more complicated, but you will have to make adjustments to get your brake balance back to where it needs to be..

Just my .02


Not if you would buy Daves proportioning valve. Also the rear brake upgrade gives you a much larger rotor and the ability to have peace of mind on extended road course events.

My .02 ;)
 

Tom F&L GoR

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 3, 2000
Posts
4,983
Reaction score
5
Location
Wappingers Falls
Moving the front calipers to the rear is indeed a heavier setup. The front calipers don't have a parking brake, so the dinky rear calipers are retained or aftermarket parking brake calipers are added. And if you weigh the OEM front caliper and the OEM rear caliper, they are actually the same... (with a Gen 1 anyway, if anyone has real numbers for a ABS Gen 2 rear caliper, I would like to know.)

The obvious benefit of a different (and I didn't say larger) caliper is being able to use larger (and now I mean larger) brake pads for long high speed events. The larger pads tolerate heat better, last longer, will be more consistent in performance. The 43mm single piston rear calipers on an '01 already have enough clamping force.
 
OP
OP
R

RTTTTed

Viper Owner
Joined
Jun 6, 2007
Posts
6,438
Reaction score
0
Yes, you can get the Red calipers from Roe.

I already have lightweight crossdrilled/slotted rear calipers and (as stated above) my '01 have the larger 43mm pistons in the calipers so there's not much difference if upgrading the rears. The 96-00's have only small (36mm) pistons in their calipers and get large stopping gains from an upgrade though.

The Gen 2 has small single piston calipers, the fronts are 4 piston Brembos, and the front rotors are thicker and much heavier than the stock rear rotors.

Ted
 

REDSLED

Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 30, 2002
Posts
1,484
Reaction score
0
Location
Bakersfield, CA USA
The 43mm single piston rear calipers on an '01 already have enough clamping force.

What is your claim based on? Are the folks at Dodge Racing missing something? Why would they go to (4) 4 piston calipers instead of just keeping the single piston in the rear? I know you are always pushing your single piston upgrade on every topic when a brake upgrade is asked about, but there must be a reason why every serious race car, especially Vipers, have more than a single piston stopping the rears. Is every race team misinformed? For a street car that cruises around town, the single piston is adequate, but for any car that sees the track more is needed, unless the driver wants to leave lower track times on the table.
 
Last edited:

Tom F&L GoR

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 3, 2000
Posts
4,983
Reaction score
5
Location
Wappingers Falls
My claim is based on this: If a 43mm single piston caliper can lock up the rear brakes (and it seems that when you disable the ABS it will do so) then you unquestionably have enough clamping force to overcome the traction capability of the tire on the road. Also, I have g-force data with 40mm rears and they show over 1 G braking vs. 0.8 G with the OEM size.

Is Dodge Racing missing something? (Is not SRT, PVO, Dodge Racing, and Viper all the same guys?) Ummm... they originally put the dinky caliper on the car. But no, there is a good reason for "elongated" calipers.

Anyway, I'm sorry if you don't get this from my discussions, but I thought I make it clear that the reason for larger calipers (2, 4, or 6 piston) is simply to use a larger pad. A larger pad will tolerate the heat build up, be more consistent over time and temperature. The pad material does not have the large temperature swings that a small pad would have. Or said another way, a small pad would have to be very hard to work on the track, and then be too ******* the street. On the track, a larger pad will last more laps. If fewer pistons could be used to apply pressure to the back of the pad evenly, it would be fine. (But in severe abuse situations, I think the slides (and their bearing surfaces) of a single piston caliper would not apply even pressure, so a fixed caliper is probably better.)

I jump into these conversations because people often think slapping a front caliper on the back is all they need to cure Gen1/2 braking. That's incorrect. I still have emails asking me (!!!) what is happening and it's because with 4 piston calipers in the back the system needs a proportioning valve to dial down the clamping force. Redsled, you must have done it properly on your car with the Wilwood 6 pistons in the front after putting the OEM fronts on the rear - but didn't you also add a prop valve? When you had the StopTech system on the Challenge car, you must have had a prop valve, too. Do the math (as shown on the StopTech site) and the physics shows that you only need (or can use) ~20% of the braking from the rear. Consequently, a rear brake that is nearly the same size as the front is tremendously overcapable and underutilized. Even in a real race car, unless half the weight is on the rear wheels under braking, you don't need as much clamping force in the rear.

While it may be somewhat impractical in the real world, I make the distinction between the size of the pad and the size (number of pistons) of the caliper. To me this is a worthwhile discussion for something important and so people can figure out how to do this.

Yes, I'm kind of over-explaining because besides being a Gen 1 guy with a good sense of humor, and I don't want to see A) people putting on mega-mega front calipers (like a 14" rotor kit) combined with the OEM rears, or B) mondo rear calipers (like any 4 piston deal) with the OEM fronts and think that's all there is to it. First it's getting the front-rear balance correct, then if you track the car, make provisions for higher temperatures.
 
Last edited:

Bluvenm97

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 10, 2005
Posts
209
Reaction score
0
Location
AZ, USA
Not if you would buy Daves proportioning valve. Also the rear brake upgrade gives you a much larger rotor and the ability to have peace of mind on extended road course events.

My .02 ;)

Like I said, you will have to make more adjustments. :rolleyes:
The front caliper on the back is not even fully utilized, as Tom is saying. Bigger isn't always better, if you ain't using all of what you've got:2tu:
 

SilverSnake

Viper Owner
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Posts
328
Reaction score
0
Location
Phoenix,AZ
Like I said, you will have to make more adjustments. :rolleyes:
The front caliper on the back is not even fully utilized, as Tom is saying. Bigger isn't always better, if you ain't using all of what you've got:2tu:

The only adjustment is ONE knob. And a few runs gets you there. :rolaugh: Maybe you should come out to some of the events out at firebird and take your car through the course 20-30 times then you will know Bigger is much Better. :omg:
 
Last edited:

Joseph Dell

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 2, 2000
Posts
3,463
Reaction score
0
Location
Atlanta, GA 30338
Maybe someone can verify this for me: An insurance agent friend of mine told me that the insurance company can choose not to pay a claim if you are in an accident and a proportioning valve is found to be on your car. He said that the insurance companies can always argue that the owner of the car messed up the brake set-up and caused the wreck and that there is no way of knowing.

Do any of y'all have any info on this concept? BTW - I run stoptech 355mm fronts, Tom's 40mm rears, and a Stroud 460 on the rear. I don't use the stroud on the road courses, though...

JD
 

2001 GTS

Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 3, 2003
Posts
1,242
Reaction score
0
Location
Charlotte, NC
Any way to proportion the front brakes so the right doesn't lock up so easily?

Note: This is on a 2000 car, so no ABS
 

Tom F&L GoR

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 3, 2000
Posts
4,983
Reaction score
5
Location
Wappingers Falls
Any way to proportion the front brakes so the right doesn't lock up so easily?

Note: This is on a 2000 car, so no ABS

Not safely. Prop valves are only for the rear.

In the extreme, let's say you adjust your front prop valve for street tires. At some point the fronts lock and you keep the knob just before that.

Then you join Silversnake for an event and he loans you slicks. You start to brake and the sticky tires provide more traction. You apply more brake because you can. Weight shifts forward and off the rear. But you had reduced the front brake line pressure, so you apply more pedal to get the fronts working, which is now applying even more effort than before to the rears. The rears will lock first and you sideswipe Silversnake in the first turn.

You will always want the ability to lock the fronts before the rears and avoid having the rears lock first. Plus, all the occupant safety designs (seat belts, air bags, crush zones) are for front end collisions and not side or rear hits.
 

wastntim

Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 28, 2006
Posts
1,103
Reaction score
0
Location
Orland Park
What is your claim based on? Are the folks at Dodge Racing missing something? Why would they go to (4) 4 piston calipers instead of just keeping the single piston in the rear? I know you are always pushing your single piston upgrade on every topic when a brake upgrade is asked about, but there must be a reason why every serious race car, especially Vipers, have more than a single piston stopping the rears. Is every race team misinformed? For a street car that cruises around town, the single piston is adequate, but for any car that sees the track more is needed, unless the driver wants to leave lower track times on the table.

Due to the fact that I have been waiting to upgrade my brakes all winter and just began exploring alternatives for upgrading my brakes, this thread cannot have more perfect timing. I recently spoke on the phone with a well known supplier and he suggested to me the same basic premise that Tom is talking about and stated that the only thing I should change on my 02 Rt is the front caliper and rotor and the rear rotor (to go lighweight) and pads. He suggested that a bigger caliper on the rear was completely unecessary, which raised the same questions in my mind as have been raised in the quoted section above. If, in fact, a larger caliper provides no real benefit, why do all new vipers have the larger rear calipers? Furthermore, why do all of the new vettes, etc. also have the matching rear calipers? Is it all for aesthetic purposes? Furthermore, since I have an ABS car, won't having the larger calipers ensure that I have more than enough braking power in the rear at all times, without having to worry about it being too much?

As an FYI, my main goal in uprgading my brakes was for performance driving events on road courses.
 

Dave's Big Brakes

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 13, 2002
Posts
1,803
Reaction score
0
Location
San Diego Ca USA
Due to the fact that I have been waiting to upgrade my brakes all winter and just began exploring alternatives for upgrading my brakes, this thread cannot have more perfect timing. I recently spoke on the phone with a well known supplier and he suggested to me the same basic premise that Tom is talking about and stated that the only thing I should change on my 02 Rt is the front caliper and rotor and the rear rotor (to go lighweight) and pads. He suggested that a bigger caliper on the rear was completely unecessary, which raised the same questions in my mind as have been raised in the quoted section above. If, in fact, a larger caliper provides no real benefit, why do all new vipers have the larger rear calipers? Furthermore, why do all of the new vettes, etc. also have the matching rear calipers? Is it all for aesthetic purposes? Furthermore, since I have an ABS car, won't having the larger calipers ensure that I have more than enough braking power in the rear at all times, without having to worry about it being too much?

As an FYI, my main goal in uprgading my brakes was for performance driving events on road courses.

In 2003 Dodge installed "Real Brakes" on the Vipers and they also installed the same system on the Comp Cpe's:2tu: so if all of Dodge's engineers thought these cars needed these upgraded brakes, and every Gen3 owner knows that they have Real Brakes DUH!

Installing larger front brakes only on non abs cars makes the fronts to all the work, and doesn't solve the front wheel lockup.

My .02

Dave's Big Brakes
 

2001 GTS

Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 3, 2003
Posts
1,242
Reaction score
0
Location
Charlotte, NC
Not safely. Prop valves are only for the rear.

In the extreme, let's say you adjust your front prop valve for street tires. At some point the fronts lock and you keep the knob just before that.

Then you join Silversnake for an event and he loans you slicks. You start to brake and the sticky tires provide more traction. You apply more brake because you can. Weight shifts forward and off the rear. But you had reduced the front brake line pressure, so you apply more pedal to get the fronts working, which is now applying even more effort than before to the rears. The rears will lock first and you sideswipe Silversnake in the first turn.

You will always want the ability to lock the fronts before the rears and avoid having the rears lock first. Plus, all the occupant safety designs (seat belts, air bags, crush zones) are for front end collisions and not side or rear hits.

Good point Tom. I have your 40mm on the rear of the 2000. At the track with the stock brakes it never locked up. But on the street any moderate to heavy braking locks up the right front on an instant. Both cases on the same street tires.
 

SingleMalt

Enthusiast
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
552
Reaction score
0
Tom, are you saying the 38mm upgrade I got from you was actually a 40mm? I think you may have had a mild lapse... which is rare, so I had to mention something! :)

Actually, '92-'00 have 38mm, which are too small, and get 1.0+ G's with a 40mm upgrade. :smirk:
 
Top