A Viper for the Ill-informed Public

[ViperInBlack]

The post of the 17 year-old, Viper owner, and the tragic death of his 18 year old passenger, brings to bear several important factors that are not being addressed (and Jim points out several):

1. The Viper is not like the muscle cars of the late 60s/early 70s.
2. The Viper requires appreciable skill to drive
3. Driving a Viper is not a passive experience
4. When problems occur, the Viper is unforgiving
5. This is not mentioned in reviews, shoot-outs, or in ads for the car
6. Comparing it to its most common competitors increases the distortion of what it is.
7. The public's adulation of the Viper does not necessarily include respect for the driver's capacity to manage the vehicle
8. With increased horsepower/torque, problems with unskilled drivers may well increase

Decades ago, the concern for motorcycle safety resulted in M-class license. It was well-accepted that many riders lacked the skill to operate a bike.

Such restrictions can be oppressive, and short of that, there needs to be attempts at educating the public and potential first-time buyer as to what driving the car requires.

A beginning approach would be a factory brochure (as Harley does) which emphasizes risks and safety measures. It would not slow sales, and for the informed, could conceivably enhance them.



[A man is recovering from surgery when a nurse asks him how he is feeling.
The patient replies: "I'm O.K., but I didn't like the four-letter-word the doctor used during surgery," he answered.
"What did he say?" asked the nurse.
"OOPS!" said the patient]

 

[DSR207]

Or you could use this approach , Quote from VIPERFREAK2:

Lessons come from experience. Give the kid a VW rabbit diesel. then a 4 cyl Toyota, then a V6 Camaro, then a Mustang GT, then a Corvette, THEN a Viper.

 

[ViperInBlack]

Mike:

Even so, that fails to tell the kid, and the public, that this is a streetable race car, and, as such, is unlike any other car he is likely to own.

 

[SRTRICKY]

Or you could use this approach , Quote from VIPERFREAK2:

Lessons come from experience. Give the kid a VW rabbit diesel. then a 4 cyl Toyota, then a V6 Camaro, then a Mustang GT, then a Corvette, THEN a Viper.

Not necessarily true. I think when parents just toss a set of keys to their kid and say go take it for a spin is when theres going to be trouble. Obviously the kid knew he isn't going to be driving his old man's car all the time so he might as well see what the car can do before he goes home. I got a brand new ws6 trans am when I hit 16...and I know I did a few stupid things with it but I always knew I had a car with tons of power...I must respect it. Depends on the kid.

 

[DSR207]

Ok, how about this: A factory brochure which emphasizes risks and safety measures and the required experience from
VW rabbit diesel. then a 4 cyl Toyota, then a V6 Camaro, then a Mustang GT, then a Corvette...And may be a PG 18 rating.

 

[DSR207]

"the kid knew he isn't going to be driving his old man's car all the time so he might as well see what the car can do before he goes home."
Ricky, there is an update to the story, The Viper was bought for the kid...

 

[ViperInBlack]

Responsible parents would be a step in the right direction, but some parents are as irresponsible in their driving skills/habits as their children.

No, I vote for a better Viper ad campaign and dealership brochures. It would also help if shootouts noted that the Viper and the Porsche are quite different cars rather than indicating that performance differences are all that the driver will note.

 

[VIPR GTS]

look to the Japanese motorcycle license requirements for guidance with a system that is already in place. You have to work your way up the CC scale (50cc then 75cc etc) so that you learn how to handle what you are about to drive. Not that it is a cure all or would even work in our situation, just an example of how the handle the issue.

 

[ViperInBlack]

There was (is there still) a separate motorcycle license in many States that differentiate between 500cc bikes and those above.

However, you can buy a bike without a Class M license.

I do not ever want to see the goverment more involved in regulating our purchases.

It is very important that most individuals do not know the difference in skill required between an AMG Mercedes SL55 and a Porsche SRT-10...worlds apart.

 

[womsterr]

I just don't understand all the handwringing here. You can't legislate common sense. Its been proven time and time again.

 

[BLUESNAKE367]

Alice, correct on all points and factors..

You know, it use to be a standard that before you could purchase a high performance car you had to hold a "racing" license, and most insurance companys use to inforce this also, the performance rating of most cars is noted in the vin#.

Even in the early days of Vipers, you had to have a racing license or be a previous Viper owner..

But, in the case of this noted accident with the teen, the vehicle was purchased by an adult and then given to the teen...how tragic.....

I fear if a real effort is not made to educate the public on these new generation cars, that DC will not be the death of Viper, but public out cry
to stop the production of cars such as Vipers, due to high mortality rates,when these cars are in the hands of the inexperienced or unexpected..

My 2c...how can I help????

 

[DSR207]

Alice, How old would someone be after driving a VW rabbit diesel. then a 4 cyl Toyota,a V6 Camaro, a Mustang GT, then a Corvette...My point is the VIPER is not for teens... The other day, while shifting to 2nd, the car took off to the left lane, I didn't floor it, but somehow lost control, and only luck saved my butt !! Most of us wouldn't let a teen drive the car, even before when knew how bad it can be, the warning signs are all there, 500HP, 500+ TQ, no traction control, 6 SPEED. The deal is, if the father was killed{as bad as that sounds} the reaction would have been different. I think if the kid was driving by himself, or with his dad, it would have been safer, but put two teens together, and things change...

 

[VENOMUS]

From the ages 16 to 19, I had been in three serious car accidents, twice as the driver and once as the passenger. Luckily nobody was ever hurt even once when the car flipped over we still walked away. The cars were a Triumph TR7, a Ford Pinto and an AMC Matador. If I was behind the wheel of a Viper during those accidents the only way I would have left the scene would have been feet first and with a sheet over my head.

A factory brochure is not going to replace intelligence and common sense. The power of the Viper is just too dominant for the hormones of a teenage male. I can admit it, when I was a teenager; it was all balls and no brains. You stated it perfectly when you said “the Viper is unforgiving”. A teen age boy needs to be in a car that is very forgiving because he is going to make mistakes and boys will be boys.

I am not placing blame on anyone for this occurrence but car dealers should be informing potential Viper owners about the dangers of the vehicle. When I purchased mine, the only thing the dealer discussed was how I would pay for it. I never truly understood how much of a beast the Viper is until I punched the gas for the first time.

The parents of this boy obviously didn’t know the dangers of this car or I am sure they would not have bought it. If they did know about the dangers then it’s a different ballgame. Dodge, the car dealers and even the insurance companies that insure these cars should assist in informing potential Viper owners about these dangers. I know my insurance agent refuses to insure young boys for these kinds of cars.

 

[ViperInBlack]

Rick & Mike:

Let me address two areas:

a. If the father had been informed as to what he was buying, he may have elected to defer on a Viper for his son, perhaps own one himself and educate the kid regarding its wild nature. I do not feel that moving him from through a progression of cars would have met the apparent immediacy demands of that particular family. They were going to indulge the kid. However, they would not likely have bought him an AK-47 since they at least have that much information.

b. I had always hoped that the VCA Website would be a place where those contemplating the purchase of a Viper would visit for awhile. In that regard (and you would have to check with Joe Houss who is Media Director) an online brochure regarding the Viper's performance, idiosyncracies, most common poser mods and most common performance mods all the way through the extreme performance mods would be helpful to many either interested in the car academically or trying to make an informed decision.

 

[Kai SRT10]

1. The Viper is not like the muscle cars of the late 60s/early 70s.
2. The Viper requires appreciable skill to drive
3. Driving a Viper is not a passive experience
4. When problems occur, the Viper is unforgiving
5. This is not mentioned in reviews, shoot-outs, or in ads for the car

Jeremy Clarkson's review of the Viper on BBC's Top Gear actually is one of the few reviews I've seen that does emphasize the dangerous nature of the Viper.

"It handles in the most extraordinary way. You get miles and miles of grip, and then, when you reach the limits of adhesion . . . it kills you. And because there's so much grip from these hugely fat tires, you're going really very very fast indeed when it does let go."

"This is a phsyco car . . . a mother of violence. On one hand, benign, gentle, and concerned for your well being, but on the other hand, an axe murderer."

Clarkson is right on target with these comments, I think.

When I purchased my Viper, I got a very stern "lesson" from the Viper tech about how to drive the car. He spent a fair amount of time with me, telling me about all the new Viper owners that wrecked their cars. He talked about the torque, and told me not, under any circumstances, to "get on it" when the wheel was pointed anything but straight ahead. He talked about the car's tendency to swerve when driving on grooved pavement, and warned me of the hyper-sensitive steering. I was already scared of the car, and after his lecture, I was even more scared. It was helpful. Probably all Dodge dealers should do this.

 

[ViperInBlack]

Kai:

To some extent I agree. That is very flowery and image filled prose...but it is poetic, not grounded in objectivity.

I would like to see a call-out box in an article that says: Naive Driver Beware (and then goes on to describe tracking, wheel hop, run flats, etc etc).

What you said: When I purchased my Viper, I got a very stern "lesson" from the Viper tech about how to drive the car. He spent a fair amount of time with me, telling me about all the new Viper owners that wrecked their cars. He talked about the torque, and told me not, under any circumstances, to "get on it" when the wheel was pointed anything but straight ahead. He talked about the car's tendency to swerve when driving on grooved pavement, and warned me of the hyper-sensitive steering. I was already scared of the car, and after his lecture, I was even more scared. It was helpful. Probably all Dodge dealers should do this. is a more accurate statement. It should be quoted in a brochure.

 

[NOMERCY]

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people".

 

[Joseph Houss]

Great points everyone!

I'd like to "build" a "Welcome to 500 HP!" introduction. I'd be glad to compile all your comments, stories, ideas, suggestions. How 'bout we post them here, and I'll try to build it!

By the way, step one... I believe a quote from JonB:

First step is to tighten the nut behind the wheel!

 

[SRTRICKY]

Yikes, I take back what I said earlier...no one should just be handed a free viper! At least when you pay for it fully or at least partially you get more respect for the car and will take some care of the thing!

 

[ViperInBlack]

Joe:

JonB's quote makes reference to the risk taker, and that may be a good section further down the list.

At the onset, it should begin with some (edit please) like: "The Dodge Viper grew and developed from a race platform. It is a tribute to the manufacturer that it can be driven, with appreciable care, on city streets. But the owner/operator must always be advised that this amount of brute power being transferred to the pavement requires maturity, knowledge, and more than a degree of skill.

It is unlike any other car available to the public, and this cannot be over-emphasized. It is not a car for casual motoring, nor is it a car forgiving of lapses of attention or the distraction of attempting other tasks.

Unlike your other vehicles, depressing the gas pedal does not result in a calm, tranquil response. Instead, you are confronted with the impact of inordinate torque etc etc......"

Something like that.

 

[Ken Lally]

All,

I want to thank all of you for these posts- I am actually the guy you all refer to, the guy looking to buy a '05 SRT.

I currently have a '68 high HP Vette (for sale) and thought the Viper mostly resembled this from all the cars I have owned (raw, no traction control etc).

I think the idea of some introduction to the car is in order, I can say you all have scared the piss out of me, for sure, however I still want the car.

Hemotox: would you recommend a driving school? Would it make any diff?

I will take the words from the tech seriously:

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[redsrt03]

Probably all Dodge dealers should do this. is a more accurate statement. It should be quoted in a brochure.
_____________________________________________________

I can just see a dodge saleman about to close on an 85k car telling the potential buyer about the "lethality" of the car. And putting that in a brochure, would sure make a lot of civil-suit lawyers happy.

Maybe dodge should do what Honda does (or at least used to do) when you buy an ATV. They give you money (100 bucks I think) to take a free ATV safety riders course that shows you the things to do (and not do) in order to safely ride an ATV. (BTW In spite of my taking the course, I've still managed to pull off a 360 and a 720 barrel roll on my ATV!)

Just a thought.

 

[Janni]

So now the idea is to publish that Dodge acknowledges this is a DANGEROUS vehicle? And that most likely, the average person is putting themselves at risk without some sort of training????

Here's another idea. Make PVO dealers, similar to SVT dealers. These are folks that have been trained to sell and service this car. These dealers will make a commitment to educate the buyer and another commitment to understand that the buyer expects a different dealership experience in both sales and service. Their other current or past vehicles most likely are high end imports and they have had positive experiences at Mercedes, Lexus, Infinity, BMW, etc. Do not place these cars in "regular" dealers, with the other regular cars.

Personally, this car is EASIER to drive than the older cars, yet we are seeing more instances of immediate driver error with tragic results. This car sticks TONS better and is much more predictable. It handles better, stops better, and acceleration is pretty comparable based on the effective lower gearing based on the larger rear tires. WHY are people wrecking these cars??? #1 - The SOTP feel is confidence inspiring. Great for skilled drivers, good for good drivers, and really scary for bad drivers. #2 - The Viper is now being "shopped" against other cars. Because it is a real convertible, it's attracing a new buyer - one that may be looking at a Corvette, a M-B or even a Lexus 300Ugly or whatever it's called. Previously, these buyers would not have considered the RT/10 because it's too much of a compromise.

So here you have a car that's being lumped into the same class as other high end convertibles - attribute some of that to the more sedate styling, some to the convertible, and a lot to the "refinements". And then, the car buyer assmes that the cars he's looking at are in the same "class", so he goes for the one with the most HP. And, with all the improvements, it's an easier car to live with as a daily driver.

IMO - the broadened appeal of this car is taking it in a direction that could end up hurting it's long term viability. We see too many more of these stories and someone is gonna sue. And we're not helping D-C with our "this car is dangerous" and "we should warn people" approach.

The right thing to do is to market this car to the true perfomance enthusiasts - the ones who will put up with the compromises you have to make because they want a DRIVER'S CAR. **** out the folks that think it's just another high HP convertible with broad based styling appeal. When the SRT came out, there was an ad that showed an old guy with a *****. great - telling everyone that an 80 year old will feel young again - marketing our own midlife crisis mobile. Shouldn't we let Corvette keep that stereotype?

Bring back the roots of this car - change the target market - use a sophisticated dealer network - make the stying as polarizing as the RT/10 and GTS and **** out the folks that chose the Viper in their car shopping comparison. The new buyers will then folks that never considered another car because it had no equal for them. (And Dodge won't have 200 days worth of inventory, either, I'll bet)

 

[ViperInBlack]

Ken:

I hope the discussion is, indeed, helpful to you. You note correctly that moving from your `68 Corvette to the Viper is quite a change. Reading the posts may be helpful to you. Attending a driving school is always a good idea and if you plan to track the car, it is mandatory. Often, merely understanding its potential for hazard is enough to make an informed decision.

 

[ViperInBlack]

Richard:

The term "lethality" applies to many things and many vehicles and would not be necessary, but responsibly informing the public would be helpful and arguably may impact the accident/injury rate in the car.

The SRT-10 is a deceptively calm looking car unlike its predecessors, and with the release of the C6, which arguably looks like its little brother, the distinction between a car and streetable race car becomes all the more ambiguous.

Referring back to the Harley once again: In your owners materials, there are well written documents regarding safety, safety courses and safety gear. The risk factor with a Harley is greater than that of a Viper, but the SRT-10 Viper with its creature comforts may confuse new and prospective owners into thinking that this is "just one more car."

 

[Viperfreak2]

How about a 'power' key like the ZR1 and the new M5 have? You could switch between 100, 250 and 500hp. Teenage son taking people for a ride? 100hp, remove key. Wife going to the PTA meeting? 250, remove key. Me on the way to Pep Boys for new wiper blades? 500.

Traction control may have prevented or lessened the accident. We'll never know.

 

[knuk]

I don't believe putting anything about the "power" of the car in the brochure will help anything at all. When you bought you Viper didn't you know what you were getting? Did you think you were buying just another car?
And then you have to actually read the brochure as well....several of the questions asked on the web site can easily be answered if people would just read the owners manual. Hell one guy didn't even know that the CD player held 6 CD's!!

 

[ViperInBlack]

The Owner's Manual comes with the car; after the purchase.

We are discussing someone who has never owned a Viper and is beginning to shop for one with only the media (magazines) as guidance and possibly a brief test ride.

Thus, the prospective buyer misperceives that the vehicle is a(n albeit expensive) Corvette equivalent.

 

[MAVERICK]

Great posts everyone. I haven't race competively for 20 years and I've decided to attend the 3 day Skip Barber Racing School (from their website at www.skipbarber.com

------------------------
Three Day Racing School

Master the fundamentals of racing in classroom and driving sessions using our 2.0 liter Formula Dodge racecar. Everything you need to get started is provided at the track.

DAY ONE includes an introduction to the racecars, equipment and a discussion of the track. An intensive series of slalom, braking and downshifting exercises follow with focus on double clutching and heel-and-toe downshifting.

DAY TWO emphasizes track time in a series of lapping sessions at progressively higher speeds. During classroom sessions, Skip Barber Racing Instructors impart their knowledge of racing theory and advanced braking techniques.

DAY THREE includes classroom instruction and track drills in drafting, passing and racing in the rain. Then, you'll line up two-by-two and practice double-file race starts and single-file restarts. Extensive lapping sessions follow for the balance of the day.

Graduates of a Skip Barber Three Day Racing School are eligible to participate in Advanced Activities, a requirement to compete in the Skip Barber Race Series. Eligible graduates can also apply for a regional SCCA Competition License.
----------------------

I am also planning on attending Viper Days at Sebring. I am doing both because of the safety concerns that I have as a responsible driver who does like to push the car hard when I'm on the road. If my son decides to own a Viper, I will pay for him to attend both as well.

Charles

 

[29OUTLAW]

The Owner's Manual comes with the car; after the purchase.

We are discussing someone who has never owned a Viper and is beginning to shop for one with only the media (magazines) as guidance and possibly a brief test ride.

…or on sites like this. I spent 3 months on this site before I made a purchase. It was this site that made me aware of how “tricky” it is do drive a Viper.