another mag test CD. viper vs vette

[sween]

Finally picked up the magazine. Nice article, with nice pictures. The Viper looks amazing, very menacing and muscular, the vette looks like a “cereal-box toy” by comparison. Unfortunately the snake trailed the vette in every speed category.

Some quotes:

“Just look at the thing(Viper). It’s testosterone on wheels. From the 13.6-inch-wide rear tires to the never-ending hood, there’s so much attitude that one test driver said ’ This car makes me nervous’.

“Given the choice between the two of them on the track, all of us preferred the Viper. We scored the Viper‘s handling a 10 out of 10 and gave the ZO6 a 6.”


Apparently we just need to loose some pounds. The vette was quicker because of its better power-to-weight ratio (6.2 for the vette vs. 6.8 for the Viper).
According to them the Viper was the better track car, better suspension, more stable, more predictable, “a real sweetheart on the track” to use their words.

sounds great, im gonna have to pick it up

 

[Warfang]

]I was pointing out that there are numerous posts on here about the Z06. They are either 1. "The sky is falling, the Viper program is dead, DC hates Americans blah, blah, blah,"; or 2. "Viper *****, it is slow, Vette rulz, Vette is cool, Vette is blah, blah blah."

Sween posted numbers that might be interesting to a Viper owner, but then that post was followed with lots of #1 and #2.

Dirk

I think "Viper is dead" and "DC hates America" are two different things. Viper most likely is NOT dead (yet), but there is plenty of evidence that points to DC not caring too much for their American brands... relegating it to high volume revenue generators while they put the r&d money to their loss leaders (Smart, MB SLR, etc). The lack of response to the z06 was DC's way of making sure their germen baby (SLR) stayed top of their food chain. How else could they explain a sub-$100k Viper beating a half million dollar SLR?

 

[Hirohawa]

Another frustrating fact is that They are pumping even more money into the slow selling $450,000 SLR to make it lighter and faster with more aggressive bodywork. DC is upset that the SLR has not had the impact of the Carerra GT and Enzo.

The money and technology would be better spent on the Viper program an ESTABLISHED successful sports car with a great racing history. The SLR is an automatic and very heavy, and i cannot imagine that many buyers cross shopping one with a Carrera GT or an Enzo.

]I was pointing out that there are numerous posts on here about the Z06. They are either 1. "The sky is falling, the Viper program is dead, DC hates Americans blah, blah, blah,"; or 2. "Viper *****, it is slow, Vette rulz, Vette is cool, Vette is blah, blah blah."

Sween posted numbers that might be interesting to a Viper owner, but then that post was followed with lots of #1 and #2.

Dirk

I think "Viper is dead" and "DC hates America" are two different things. Viper most likely is NOT dead (yet), but there is plenty of evidence that points to DC not caring too much for their American brands... relegating it to high volume revenue generators while they put the r&d money to their loss leaders (Smart, MB SLR, etc). The lack of response to the z06 was DC's way of making sure their germen baby (SLR) stayed top of their food chain. How else could they explain a sub-$100k Viper beating a half million dollar SLR?

 

[kwiksilver]

Bruce, you've taken too many of your own pills...There has never been a viper with ANY cup holders. Get a life!!!

 

[AG98RT10]

Got my copy today and read it at lunch. Sounds like the Z is somewhat quicker, but handles poorly. If I wanted a Vette, I'd get one, but I'd rather Paxton-ize the Viper...

One day...

 

[Big Medicine]

I have a hard time believing the new Vette handles poorly.

My 2000 FRC model handled like it was on rails.

How do you mess handling up?

 

[AG98RT10]

Well, poor is relative - read the article. The Vette barely beat the Viper around the track, but the "Driver's knees were wobbly." No confidence inspired by its handling.
They also said it magnified every minor bump on the track and rear end slid out constantly when suspension got upset. Sounds like a recipe for disaster when some comb-over forgets to re-activate the TC and gets on it...

 

[SnakeEye]

Well, poor is relative - read the article. The Vette barely beat the Viper around the track, but the "Driver's knees were wobbly." No confidence inspired by its handling. They also said it magnified every minor bump on the track and rear end slid out constantly when suspension got upset. Sounds like a recipe for disaster when some comb-over forgets to re-activate the TC and gets on it...

The C5 Z06 handled much the same and could also be somewhat unpredictable near the limit, especially the rear of the car when the road was anything less than smooth and flat. So no real surprise here as the suspension geometry and such of the C6 Z06 is very similar to that of its C5 ancestor.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Sounds just like how some mag drivers have described the Vipers handling in the past....Handling spooky etc, but yet owners and other mag drivers were raving about its handling....It seems like you need a driver with skills to harness this new Z06 just like the previous generation Vipers...The C6 Z06 is sounding more like the reincarnation of the GTS as blasphemous as that sounds lol...


BTW didnt see any mention of this little tidbit from MT test...They put the Viper and Vette on the dyno and guess what...The Vette puts 6hp more to the ground than the Viper...453rwhp for the Vette and 447rwhp for the Viper...And the torque was 411rwtq Vette and 431rwtq Viper....Looking at those numbers and the Vettes 300 lb weight advantage its no wonder it beats the Viper badly in all acceleration tests...

 

[fluffy]

BTW didnt see any mention of this little tidbit from MT test...They put the Viper and Vette on the dyno and guess what...The Vette puts 6hp more to the ground than the Viper...453rwhp for the Vette and 447rwhp for the Viper...And the torque was 411rwtq Vette and 431rwtq Viper....Looking at those numbers and the Vettes 300 lb weight advantage its no wonder it beats the Viper badly in all acceleration tests...

I saw that, and it really doesn't hold up when compared to the stock dynos posted here. TQ less than HP? Have any SRT dynos ever shown tq less than hp? Those that I have seen generally have torque in the 460 to 480 range (or even more in some cases). 431 is a joke.

 

[SnakeEye]

BTW didnt see any mention of this little tidbit from MT test...They put the Viper and Vette on the dyno and guess what...The Vette puts 6hp more to the ground than the Viper...453rwhp for the Vette and 447rwhp for the Viper...And the torque was 411rwtq Vette and 431rwtq Viper....Looking at those numbers and the Vettes 300 lb weight advantage its no wonder it beats the Viper badly in all acceleration tests...

I saw that, and it really doesn't hold up when compared to the stock dynos posted here. TQ less than HP? Have any SRT dynos ever shown tq less than hp? Those that I have seen generally have torque in the 460 to 480 range (or even more in some cases). 431 is a joke.

Jared, maybe SnakeBitten was referring to his Gen2?

 

[GTS Bruce]

Not enough pills actually.Have to add a glass or bottle of wine.When you want a civilized high performance car and NOT maximum performanceyou buy a Viper.You purchase a ZO6 for maximum performance and hope you can live up to the car.It used to be the other way around.So I say again.Can cup holders,an auto trans,2+2(sedan seating) or an srt-10 minivan be in the future of Viper?There's already a four door pick-um-up truck that says Viper.I can't imagine purchasing a more useless veicle.Useless as a TRUCK and sports car/sporty sedan or anything. GTS Bruce

 

[kwiksilver]

Well, dang it all Bruce, make the hurt quit and just jump.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Jared, maybe SnakeBitten was referring to his Gen2?

No need for the sarcasm as Im just reporting on the mag findings. Its funny how the so so results for the Viper is not believed but the so so results for the Vette is readily believed...I dont know what dyno was used as numbers vary from dyno to dyno...Fact is all three cars were dynoed on the same dyno the same day and the Viper only put down 20lb ft more than the Vette which is shocking......Seems the Vette is more efficient putting the power down if these numbers are legit.

One thing that was odd to me was the Ford GT dyno was 535rwhp but was rated at 550 crank. If the GT had shorter gearing it would have destroyed the Vette in acceleration..They put drivetrain loss at 2.7% for the GT You'd think MT would at least have acknowledged the GT is making at least 600hp at the crank and not the advertized 550...

BTW it was dynoed on the same dyno as the Vette and Viper were on. And the GT's numbers were spot on..So maybe DC sent them a weak Viper. Afterall it only did 121mph in the 1/4.Thats almost 3mph off the best convertable times...Did you see the weight on the SRT C? 3440...A gear change and weight loss is what the Viper needs to "run" with the Vette...How times have changed. DC

 

[STUGOTS]

I dont think theres ANY YEAR,MAKE OR MODEL viper that puts LESS TQ to the wheels the HP.

Someone botched that dyno bad or GM lined someones pockets or something, not to mention bothe rth tq and the hp are low #'s compared to the stock dyno sheets guys on here have posted.

But don't blame snakebitten the guys just posting what he read.

 

[safireviper]

I got my Car and Driver today and the results were sad to read indeed. Generation IV, we need you now.

 

[AG98RT10]

I got my Car and Driver today and the results were sad to read indeed. Generation IV, we need you now.

Cheer up! Only Viper's have instant bolt-on gratification! (Z's already maxed out compression ratio). Here's the fix (and Woodhouse will even honor the factory warranty if you buy the car from them!)

Cure for them ol' Corvette Blues!

 

[Big Medicine]

I still don't buy it. Who is this wobbly kneed driver? Maybe his kness are the problem, or maybe his balls are too small, I don't know.

I bet it's not the car's ability.

If you ain't livin' on the edge, your taking up too much space. And that's all I got to say about that.

 

[sachin]

Another frustrating fact is that They are pumping even more money into the slow selling $450,000 SLR to make it lighter and faster with more aggressive bodywork. DC is upset that the SLR has not had the impact of the Carerra GT and Enzo.

The money and technology would be better spent on the Viper program an ESTABLISHED successful sports car with a great racing history. The SLR is an automatic and very heavy, and i cannot imagine that many buyers cross shopping one with a Carrera GT or an Enzo.

The SLR is actually quite equal to the Carrera GT. Most people say it is incredible as to how similar the performance is between the 2. In a recent test they were dead even in acceleration, both topped out around 207mph, same braking distances, same lap times as well. I would say they are direct competitors. Here is a review that compares the two and you can see just how similar they are (there are differences though, Carrera GT is more PURE).
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,12529-1256050_1,00.html

 

[STUGOTS]

I got my Car and Driver today and the results were sad to read indeed. Generation IV, we need you now.

Cheer up! Only Viper's have instant bolt-on gratification! (Z's already maxed out compression ratio). Here's the fix (and Woodhouse will even honor the factory warranty if you buy the car from them!)

Cure for them ol' Corvette Blues!

THATS a VERY good point that vette is MAXXED from GM racing headers, HF cats, 3" exhaust, ported heads, agressive cam (vipers have this one too), huge TB, 1.7 roller rockers, short throw shifter,STOCK K&N filter and a compression ratio that can choke a horse ect. except its all done by GM where on the vipers WE as the owners do it, so really if you honestly think about it its a POS all those mods and only 505 Bhp?????? look at my sig I have everything they put on the vette stock (plus the vec 2) and im putting down more the 505 at the WHEELS!!! and mines a gen 2, the vettes realy comp is the SRT WHICH comes with 60 Bhp MORE then my car.

So honestly with ALL THAT done to that vette and only 505 Bhp its a POS, you can honestly go get a 2003 Z06 with 405 Bhp ADD all that crap and have MORE then the new Z EASILY.


Think about it this way..........


ported heads (a REAL sh!tty port job) 40 Bhp
cam 20 Bhp
K&N 5 Bhp (even tho the claim 5 RWHP just to be fair say 5 Bhp)
TB 5 Bhp
Headers 15 Bhp
HF cats 15 Bhp
cat back 10 Bhp
1.7's 15 Bhp (most guys get 25 - 30 but again to be fair here)


thats ATLEAST 125 Bhp in mods alone NOT counting compression thats appx 380 Bhp WITHOUT the mods thast less power then the 03 Z.

hell with this theory withstanding D.C. don't have to make ANY changes to the snake hell just add B&B headers/exhaust and cal Gregg Good for some porting because thats ALL GM did.

 

[sachin]

I got my Car and Driver today and the results were sad to read indeed. Generation IV, we need you now.

Cheer up! Only Viper's have instant bolt-on gratification! (Z's already maxed out compression ratio). Here's the fix (and Woodhouse will even honor the factory warranty if you buy the car from them!)

Cure for them ol' Corvette Blues!

THATS a VERY good point that vette is MAXXED from GM racing headers, HF cats, 3" exhaust, ported heads, agressive cam (vipers have this one too), huge TB, 1.7 roller rockers, short throw shifter,STOCK K&N filter and a compression ratio that can choke a horse ect. except its all done by GM where on the vipers WE as the owners do it, so really if you honestly think about it its a POS all those mods and only 505 Bhp?????? look at my sig I have everything they put on the vette stock (plus the vec 2) and im putting down more the 505 at the WHEELS!!! and mines a gen 2, the vettes realy comp is the SRT WHICH comes with 60 Bhp MORE then my car.

So honestly with ALL THAT done to that vette and only 505 Bhp its a POS, you can honestly go get a 2003 Z06 with 405 Bhp ADD all that crap and have MORE then the new Z EASILY.


Think about it this way..........


ported heads (a REAL sh!tty port job) 40 Bhp
cam 20 Bhp
K&N 5 Bhp (even tho the claim 5 RWHP just to be fair say 5 Bhp)
TB 5 Bhp
Headers 15 Bhp
HF cats 15 Bhp
cat back 10 Bhp
1.7's 15 Bhp (most guys get 25 - 30 but again to be fair here)


thats ATLEAST 125 Bhp in mods alone NOT counting compression thats appx 380 Bhp WITHOUT the mods thast less power then the 03 Z.

hell with this theory withstanding D.C. don't have to make ANY changes to the snake hell just add B&B headers/exhaust and cal Gregg Good for some porting because thats ALL GM did.

If this is true, then why are C6 Z06 owners seeing really big gains from headers?????

 

[Fast Freddy]

I got my Car and Driver today and the results were sad to read indeed. Generation IV, we need you now.

Cheer up! Only Viper's have instant bolt-on gratification! (Z's already maxed out compression ratio). Here's the fix (and Woodhouse will even honor the factory warranty if you buy the car from them!)

Cure for them ol' Corvette Blues!

THATS a VERY good point that vette is MAXXED from GM racing headers, HF cats, 3" exhaust, ported heads, agressive cam (vipers have this one too), huge TB, 1.7 roller rockers, short throw shifter,STOCK K&N filter and a compression ratio that can choke a horse ect. except its all done by GM where on the vipers WE as the owners do it, so really if you honestly think about it its a POS all those mods and only 505 Bhp?????? look at my sig I have everything they put on the vette stock (plus the vec 2) and im putting down more the 505 at the WHEELS!!! and mines a gen 2, the vettes realy comp is the SRT WHICH comes with 60 Bhp MORE then my car.

So honestly with ALL THAT done to that vette and only 505 Bhp its a POS, you can honestly go get a 2003 Z06 with 405 Bhp ADD all that crap and have MORE then the new Z EASILY.


Think about it this way..........


ported heads (a REAL sh!tty port job) 40 Bhp
cam 20 Bhp
K&N 5 Bhp (even tho the claim 5 RWHP just to be fair say 5 Bhp)
TB 5 Bhp
Headers 15 Bhp
HF cats 15 Bhp
cat back 10 Bhp
1.7's 15 Bhp (most guys get 25 - 30 but again to be fair here)


thats ATLEAST 125 Bhp in mods alone NOT counting compression thats appx 380 Bhp WITHOUT the mods thast less power then the 03 Z.

hell with this theory withstanding D.C. don't have to make ANY changes to the snake hell just add B&B headers/exhaust and cal Gregg Good for some porting because thats ALL GM did.

If this is true, then why are C6 Z06 owners seeing really big gains from headers?????

the reason the new LS7 engine is getting such big gains from headers is because the cylinder heads have a poor exhaust port. the intake port is awesome. the intake port has 2.20 valves and flows a whooping 348 cfm @ .600 cam lift. the exhaust port has a relatively small valve at only 1.61 inches and flows 220 cfm @ .600 cam lift. the exhaust to intake ratio is a dismal 63%. in order for this engine to go beyond 500 rwhp in a N/A state you will have to port and polish the exhaust side and install bigger valves. in order to run more lift on the exhaust side you will have to fly cut valve reliefs into the pistons. since the pistons are cast you might as well throw those in the garbage and get your self a set of custom forged pistons. the stock cam already has 20 degrees more duration to combat this flow inneficiency so a biiger cam won't get you much more than 25 rwhp on this motor unless you do the engine work that i have described. and so there in lies the rub. its gonna cost you sum $$$ to mod this engine to get 550+ rwhp in N/A state. if you do it right you can make 550+ rwhp N/A on premium pump gas. you may or may not pass emissions though.

 

[Mopar426]

Bruce, you've taken too many of your own pills...There has never been a viper with ANY cup holders. Get a life!!!

Ummm You might want to tell MGW that since they offer a bezel for the

GEN III CUP HOLDER

http://www.mgwltd.com/viper_cupholder_bezel_srt.shtml

You must be registered for see images

 

[Mopar426]

Bruce, you've taken too many of your own pills...There has never been a viper with ANY cup holders. Get a life!!!

Ummm You might want to tell MGW that since they offer a bezel for the

GEN III CUP HOLDER

http://www.mgwltd.com/viper_cupholder_bezel_srt.shtml

You must be registered for see images

 

[Mopar426]

Got my copy today and read it at lunch. Sounds like the Z is somewhat quicker, but handles poorly. If I wanted a Vette, I'd get one, but I'd rather Paxton-ize the Viper...

One day...

I guess it depends on what you consider poorly. If 1.16 g is poorly I'm Miles Davis....

 

[Mopar426]

THATS a VERY good point that vette is MAXXED from GM racing headers, HF cats, 3" exhaust, ported heads, agressive cam (vipers have this one too), huge TB, 1.7 roller rockers, short throw shifter,STOCK K&N filter and a compression ratio that can choke a horse ect. except its all done by GM where on the vipers WE as the owners do it, so really if you honestly think about it its a POS all those mods and only 505 Bhp?????? look at my sig I have everything they put on the vette stock (plus the vec 2) and im putting down more the 505 at the WHEELS!!! and mines a gen 2, the vettes realy comp is the SRT WHICH comes with 60 Bhp MORE then my car.

So honestly with ALL THAT done to that vette and only 505 Bhp its a POS, you can honestly go get a 2003 Z06 with 405 Bhp ADD all that crap and have MORE then the new Z EASILY.


Think about it this way..........


ported heads (a REAL sh!tty port job) 40 Bhp
cam 20 Bhp
K&N 5 Bhp (even tho the claim 5 RWHP just to be fair say 5 Bhp)
TB 5 Bhp
Headers 15 Bhp
HF cats 15 Bhp
cat back 10 Bhp
1.7's 15 Bhp (most guys get 25 - 30 but again to be fair here)


thats ATLEAST 125 Bhp in mods alone NOT counting compression thats appx 380 Bhp WITHOUT the mods thast less power then the 03 Z.

hell with this theory withstanding D.C. don't have to make ANY changes to the snake hell just add B&B headers/exhaust and cal Gregg Good for some porting because thats ALL GM did.

It's "Maxed Out" alright, that's why it gained 45RWHP with long tube headers alone. LOL 500RWHP w/ headers and no air filter.

Stevie Wonder can see that car doesn't have headers but EXHUAST MANIFOLDS.

If the Z06 is a "POS" then what is a GEN III that is getting beat in EVERY performance category by the Z06????

 

[SnakeBitten]

Just when you think its only Vettes that will be eating Vipers, along comes a another Viper killing luxury coupe. Look what the new M6 does to a 911 tt Ive read they run around 125+ in the 1/4 with the new 7speed gbox. Havnt seen any mag numbers on em though...Point is the showroom Vipers have lost their swagger. Since DC aint doing nothing for the gen III to keep it ahead, Viper tuning is gonna be a booming business. I Gotta come up with a product so I can cash in on this lol...

From a roll:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5782964103205155527&q=911+turbo

From a dig:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7456973188046837883&q=m6+911

And another victim a 500hp RS4.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2515316817779855742&q=RS4

 

[kwiksilver]

Mopar 426 you had that stuttering problem long??? Most people realized I meant no cupholders from the factory. If an owner puts one in how can you blame it on Dodge? you seemed to miss the point. {again}

 

[Mopar426]

Mopar 426 you had that stuttering problem long??? Most people realized I meant no cupholders from the factory. If an owner puts one in how can you blame it on Dodge? you seemed to miss the point. {again}

Please tell me you are joking, you can't be THAT much in denial are you??

So in order to install the MGW bezel you first need to drill a Coke can size hole into you console??? I mean after all that cup holder didn't come that way from the factory correct??

Maybe they should state that when ordering the bezel that you first ned to drill a hole in your $80,000 car before installing that $30 bezel! HAHAHA

 

[STUGOTS]

Mopar426 you should change your name to chevy427 because every post of yours I have EVER seen is all bashing the viper never 1 friggin good word about it EVER.

any of you guys go back and look at all his posts 99% are saying something else is better or faster blah blah blah.


BTW Mopar not EVERY test has the vette winning all the categorys