Classes for Upcoming Viper Drag Racing Series Events.......

[Tom Welch]

Hello,

While I'm not going to try and make up the classes for future events, I am going to voice my thoughts and suggestions concerning this new and exciting series, in an effort to insure its continued growth and success.

This may be hard for some to read but, I feel that some power adders do better on the dragstrip than others. With the recent controversy about nitrous cars and supercharged cars running at the V-10 nationals, Id like to suggest that we look at seperating these modifications into different classes. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE WINNING, and in my heart, I feel that I won the recent event as an UNDERDOG in power as there are several Mod 2 classified cars that are making well over 800 HP with high tech supercharger and turbocharger modifications.

With that said, Vipers with heads/cam and one power adder combinations should be seperated by power adder (nos,s/c, turbocharger)as the nitrous cars seem to do better on the track. Typically a nitrous car makes less power on the dyno than its forced air counterpart and BTR cars are a prime example of this as my personal best dyno pull is 776 RWHP(which is far less than some new forced air applications available). I know of at least two other heads/cam/nitrous Vipers that run 9 second times, but I feel that the s/c technology is not there yet and the nitrous cars seem to have an advantage.

I could turn up my nose at this fact and use the thought process of I don't care and run what you brung....but that will surely leave certain classes of racing one sided which gets boring after a while and is not conducive to growing a racing series.

Your thoughts are welcome. I hope that these middle of the road modification classes can get sorted out as the bulk of racers seem to fall in this category.

I would be more than happy to spearhead an effort to set up class schedules in an effort to get this series started correctly. There is alot of work to be done, and this brief text hasn't touched on some of the other complex classes like unlimited where stroker motors, aftermarket drivetrains and gearing, multipule power adders and more are the norm.

Tom

 

[Larry Macedo]

Maybe set the classes per ET and MPH Vs what you may or may not have under the hood. This sounded like a good idea from someone that can't be mentioned on this BBS. If the person sandbags, then he/she are disqualified plain and simple. David Boggs' car is a prime example. He's making almost 1k HP but is traction limited. David, I'm just using you as an example here, so please don't take it any other way. As David becomes acclimated to his car and the tremendous power it makes, he will surely run in the 9's no doubt. When David runs in the 9's, he would then slide to the next class. I think Tom mentioned something along these lines this past week?
Also, my personal feeling is that the governing (person) body should not be attached to a tuning company because it may or may not sway in tuning comapnies favor. The person to fill this position should have an unbiased influence and should have prior drag racing experience. The committee members could be attached to a tuning company and probably should be for the good of the series. Again, I'm not trying to single anyone out here, just giving my opinion.

 

[V10 MOJO]

both good ideas and i for one, being new to the drag events, would like to see it/them continue. a great time, an excellent learning experience, and none of the BS or stuff of corporate, etc

 

[Dr Roof]

Well put Larry, I think the time classes is best
example 10.0 - 10.5 / 10.5-11.0 / 9.0 - 9.50 /9.6 - 9.9

regardless we need more events I will help but most don't understand the effort and Time it takes so it takes alot of support. if we take everyone at the V-10 Nationals and add more cars for every event we could have a serious Drag racing series.

Again LET THE VCA KNOW this is what we want!

 

[1TONY1]

Well put Larry, I think the time classes is best
example 10.0 - 10.5 / 10.5-11.0 / 9.0 - 9.50 /9.6 - 9.9

I'm not sure of this. Sounds like it will have its own problems.

 

[Ray W]

I am in favor of Bracket-type racing with a few exceptions:

1. Eliminate the zero breakout rule and change to .05 or .10
breakout.
2. Double elimination (must lose twice). No winner/loser
bracketing,just must lose two times.
3. Street Tire 15.00 to 11.50
4. Racing Tire 11.40 and quicker.
5. Must have V-10 and be in a Viper.
6. Class winners should be.
A.Overall Winner (Double Elimination between
Bracket 1 and 2 Champions).
B.Racing tire Bracket 1.
C.Street Tire Bracket 2.
D.Low E.T. Bracket 1.
E.Best Mph Bracket 1.
Run what you want(power-adders) in either class. Your only limitations are tires and driving skill.

Also since our cars are a little older I would also like to start seeing Swap-meets at some of our events. This would help to get the right parts to some needy people and clean out our garages.

 

[9secRT]

Well, let me add my two cents at this time. I keep seeing people posting lets add more classes and THAT is not the answer. Owners are going to have to realize that you cant have a class that fits everyone and sad but true, someone has to be the looser. The best option to try and make it more competitive is to break the classes down by ET. If someone has a fast car and wants to sandbag than so be it.. What is that proving????? We can't keep breaking it down by power adders, tuners, and so forth or we will just end up with way to many classes and to few entries. Trying to put a drag race series together means, people have to start finding ways to get their cars to go faster in the bracket they want to compete.

Mark H.
(still out of racing)

 

[Tom Welch]

Mark,

Good point! In another thread, I suggested an indexing system. This would use e.t's for simplifying classes. Once a car beat the index by a given margin, the index gets lowered. The slow continue to loose, and those who work to get faster continue to stay at the top. Tuners, owners and drivers all benefit from an indexing system. It is the foundation of NHRA class layout and has been sucessfull long before the first Viper sat on its tires.

Tom

 

[pauls]

Tom, I like your index theory. Those of us familiar with NHRA Comp have seen it in action. It's a great way to run flat out. On the other hand, the segmented index system (11.5, 12., 12.5), is like the Super Classes. It's just a different kind of ET racing. The Comp index system could allow for a class victory and then a Top Eliminator. Like NHRA if you hit the index too hard (go more than .500 below)the index get adjusted marginally.

This system will also work with smaller fields. If you don't have competition in your class, you go to the handicapped Top Eliminator.

 

[Ray W]

The index system is good but it eliminates drivers in favor of those with money and tuners. The modified bracket system allows for a small breakout of as much as one tenth of a second and also reduces the ability to sandbag. You can drive as quick as you want but if you sandbag a better driver can beat you. Double elimination also gives second
chance to those who think their first loss wasn't fair.

Drag racers know the importance of racing type tires,so E.T. and tires should be the only governing rules for classes.

 

[Larry Macedo]

Lots of good input here, although from the looks of it only a few people are remotely interested. What about drag racing events during Zone Rendezvous? Welch, lets put on an event here in FL @ Desoto Raceway?

 

[Tom Welch]

Yo Macedo,

Give me a call. I would love to help set something up! I will be back in town on Wednesday evening for a week.

I was also hoping that more people would step forward and voice their opinions, concerns and suggestions towards a drag racing series.

Tom

 

[Jack B]

Tom's idea of an index system seems to be all good. It divides the cars into equal classes. In affect it takes into account both mod level and driver. Bracket classes on the other hand are all driver. Why build a 9 second car and race a 13 sec car, much of the excitement is gone, however, put two, nine second or equal power cars next to one another and you have a race with far more interest.

 

[Larry Macedo]

Yo Macedo,

Give me a call. I would love to help set something up! I will be back in town on Wednesday evening for a week.

I was also hoping that more people would step forward and voice their opinions, concerns and suggestions towards a drag racing series.

Tom

Sorry dude, I saw that you called and it was too late to jingle. Will give you a buzz tomorrow.

 

[Larry Macedo]

Jack B
10.69 @ 133 Lowest Et for MOD 2 at VOI7/Beechbend


Hello Jack, I just noticed your signature and wondered how the classes were structured @ VOI? Thanks!

 

[Ray W]

Jack B, Not to flame but to continue the debate. Brackets can be set for any E.T. we want.There could be a 10.50 or quicker class,even a 9.99 or quicker class.

To have an event you need people,9 second cars are great,but they alone won't cover the rent.Besides I also like to see how fast a car with street tires can go.

Make it fun for more people and draw a better crowd.

Tom, Moroso has a Mopar Sunday in September and usually feature a Viper Shoot Out.I know your feelings about that track,but a tag-on event would keep cost down.There would be a car show and also food at the track.The upside(practice)the downside(breaking)since it would be close to the same time as our Zone Rendezvous.

 

[pauls]

The first principle to be determined is" do you want to bracket race or run flat out?" My personal goal is to see how fast the car goes. This is more important than my driving ability.
Half second indexes, where the driver picks one, are modified ET racing like your local track does 4 times a week. They are easy to regulate (no tech) and the skill is all in the driver to hit or sand bag the index. (to give a tenth cushion on index is merely lowering the index by that amount)

The comp style index requires the car to be classified in a class based on the modifications. The Index is established on a average ET for modifications. (Tech is fairly simple based on obvious additions) Examples: Gen I Stock/ street tire 12.5, Gen 2 Stock/ street tire 12.2, SRT10 Stock/ street tire 12.00, Mod/street tire 11.8, Mod/slicks 11.4, Mod2/ blown 10.4, Mod 2/ NOS 10.5, Unlimited 9.5 etc.

As Mark notes this will end up with 8+ classes, with an index established for each. Like class cars all run each other first. Now, if you only have one car in a class they can still be handicapped against an opponent. Races are flat out no break out. If the winner goes more than .5 under the index, it is adjusted down by that amount for the rest of the race. This could be a VCA authorized system for any sanctioned VCA event.

If you want to run flat out it has to be a little more complicated than bracket racing.

 

[Ray W]

Pauls, I want to run flat out and bracket,that is why I proposed a modified format of index and bracket.

Indexing requires benchmarks based on mods and weights.

Who is going to do tear downs and inspections to make sure of compliance? Who is going to do corrections for altitude
at tracks?

Run a modified bracket system with an allowance for one tenth break-out and nobody cares about your cam,cubic inches,poweradders & etc.

I am all for a Low E.T. and high M.P.H. award at each event to promote mechanical skill. Keep it simple with minimum amount of classes and rules.

 

[CajunViper]

It seems what VOI5 and VOI6 did was acceptable. The track was never empty.
People were making runs because they wanted to. Not because they may or may not get eliminated or win a trophy. There was no heads up. Keep track of all runs and then sort out who was the fastest. They do the same with track time on the road course, made it a learning experience. How busy it that event.

Make it too serious and no one but die-hard racers will show. They same 15 cars over and over again. At VOI6 I made three runs and did a personal best and was happy. No body cared about my runs and I did not care about anybody else's. VOI5 was rained out. That is the only way you will get the bulk of Viper Nation to show up.

So what I am saying is if you want another VRL for drag racing then okay, use NHRA or IHRA rules it doesn't matter. If you want a fun series that Viper owners will show up for, then make it simple. The turners will still get the glory at the end of the day.

Dean

 

[pauls]

That's the bottom line! What do Viper owners' want to do? We (promoters; I do the Viper Nationals) want to get more cars at the drags. We want a Viper Racing series. What they have done at VOI up till the last one, was have time trials all day. Yes, every Viper owner should have access to a timed run. You have to have a time slip to show your buddies.
But racing is different. A one second interval bracket program is fine. You just have to adjust to get to that number. To win that means be able to run faster and slowing down to take the finish line. Having a tenth second breakout is just lowering the index by that amount. To win you have to run your class minus a tenth. And you never get to see how fast your car is in competition.

NHRA or IHRA doesn't have classes for Vipers with blowers or NOS. All they have is Pure Stock and Top Stock and that's only in IHRA.

The last VOI produced over 100 cars running the same classes as the V10 Nationals. Yes it's more work. No there is not a significant tech issue since the classes are divided by obvious bolt ons. Only in stock could someone hide interal mods that were not permitted. Street tires are the limiting factor in stock. We also know a stock car can''t run over 122MPH.

 

[Ray W]

I am all for a once or twice a year rotating location where
the best of the best compete. No holds barred run whatever
you want,put up or shut-up.

I would however be only a spectator. I still like driving mine when the day is done. 50,000.00 will get you a brand new 6 second dragster that is money better spent.

For local clubs and some events a modified system that gives
equal chance of winning at each skill and equipment level is more appealing to me.

 

[Tom Welch]

I see folks making comparisions using the previous VOI events for turnouts. Keep in mind that the VOI events were not just a drag race but a weekend of activities and hoopla.

I do remember when voi 7 was announced and no drag race event was scheduled, folks came out of the woodwork to voice their opinion. Now is your chance again.

Far too few people are involved in this important discussion. Wheres Joe H., Tony E., Steve F., Prashant, Jon B. and the rest of the usual crowd??

I hate to say it but this reminds me of going to the local once a year NHRA event at Gainesville (the gatornationals) and seeing over 100,000 people during the course of the weekend.....calling themselves "drag race fans". Strange thing is that I never see them in the stands on the other 51 saturday nights throughout the year! Are you fair weather fans or racers?

I at least expect input from our local club president and officers regarding this issue...seeing that we have NO club sponsored drag race events staged this year that I know of.

Larry,

It would be my pleasure to aid in setting up an event. We can also conference with Ray W. and others from S fl. if they wish.(and anyone else for that matter)

Tom

P.S. Like I said at the start of this thread, Im not going to try and shove an idea about classes down peoples throats, but if one considers the index system without ignorance or predjudice, they will find it to be the best way to run heads up classes...and even handicap classes that do not contain many cars. At NHRA events the class winners race against each other in an elimination event and an overall winner is crowned. THIS TAKES PLACE EVERY WEEKEND DURING THE NHRA RACING SEASON, AND HAS BEEN SUCCESSFULLY REPEATED FOR OVER 50 YEARS.

 

[CajunViper]

I think I hear you Tom. We need to get everyone involved to see if there is an interest in this VDRL (Viper Drag Racing League). See if it is feasible or not. The rules can come later. If it were to work like VRL, then it would be self-supportive by the drivers with the aid of a few sponsors. And perhaps have 4 events a year or just two. VRL follows Viper Days, which gives the owner something to do if they do not want to race. The VDRL could do the same, let the owner that does not want to race, make a few runs just for fun. I think a lot of owners do not want to compete, but might want to see how fast they can go. So just as the VRL has evolved into the same 20 something drivers competing around the country, so can the VDRL. And still have participation from Viper Nation.

Just my thoughts.

Dean

 

[Dr Roof]

I know first hand that setting up a Drag racing event is hard work and it takes alot of Cash to do it right!

I have been encouraging people to call or email the VCA and voice their oppinion! I know the VCA is looking at it but they need to see Numbers! The thing is we need something in the works soon before we start over again trying for one event a year!

VCA step up to the plate and make this happen!

 

[Ray W]

I'll be gone for a week and I had another suggestion to throw out there.

In conjunction with my proposed modified system,add another
class.

Quick 8,Quick 12 or even Quick 16.

The top cars of the event first qualify and then run a ladder system for elimination. If you don't make the specific cut you can go into the Bracket program if you
like.

 

[pauls]

Ray, that is what we do now at he Viper Nationals. Without a significant car count in several Heads up classes we can't run separate classes for Motor, Mod 2 and Unlimited.
We have time trials and the Fast 4 (regardless of Mods) run Heads Up for a Large CASH$$ purse. Everyone runs the dial in race. So one of the Fast 4 could win both catagories.

 

[Ray W]

Thanks for the info pauls. I didn't go to that event so I didn't know I was repeating an idea.