For those with Belangers exhaust....

[juniormint]

Would you change, and if so what would you change it too, I have Belanger headers and RT hi/flow cats, I get to change my exhaust( I had a corsa), wondering how my set up would sound with a Belanger exhaust, let me know.

 

[PhoenixGTS]

I have Belanger from the heads to the tips. Stock cats with 3" in/out plus two 18" straight-through mufflers on each side after the cats. I think the car is stupid loud, but I realize that I really dislike loud cars so I could be considered overly sensitive.

BTW, Lou Belanger installed my system eight months ago and a little over a week ago the passenger side header gasket failed at the center cylinder. Fat Albert's crew replaced the passenger side gasket on Belanger's nickle this morning, so even though the Belanger operation seems to be in flux right now, Lou took care of me. I am going with the stock head-to-header gaskets this time (paid Albert to replace the driver's side myself).

 

[Blue Streak]

Do you still have the Corsa? Is it for sale?

 

[carl B]

I am considering removing the bullet from the collector

Any thoughts??

Carl

 

[Joel]

http://[******]/postlist.php/Cat/0/Board/general

 

[Joel]

Post is on the A l l e y

 

[carl B]

Thanks very much Joel

Looks like the pickles days are numbered

Carl

 

[Shelby3]

Joel, How are you going to determine if removing the pickles was a positive move? Thanks.

 

[Joel]

With difficulty since I dont currently have access to a dyno, and unless the test was back to back, it would probably be meaningless anyway. However, I feel certain that the headers will flow more gas......the pickles actually reduce the cross sectional area of the pipe by more than 1/3. This may be beneficial to picking up low speed torque on an NA motor, but on a high output supercharged motor it will be restrictive. BTW, does any other high performance header manufacturer use pickles for any other car, race or street ?
I dont see many Japanese performance bikes with street horsepower approaching 200bhp per NA liter using them either!

 

[carl B]

I will be in the US picking up the Greg Good heads and stuff next week but the pickles will go when I return


Carl

 

[PhoenixGTS]

My car is at Fat Alberts right now getting a little work done. When I dropped the car off, Al and I had a chat about his Gen II super motors. He is now making over 800 crank hp with a redline above 7,000 with no power adders (dry sump, small journal crank, 11.5:1 compression, hydraulic lifters, AEM, heads down here in Phoenix). I believe this is with the standard Belangers (which Albert helped develop) pickles and all. I am picking my car up tomorrow and will check for sure. If so, that would argue that the pickle-filled collector is still flowing big numbers while keeping up velocity.

You must be registered for see images

 

[Joel]

Thats interesting. I dont doubt that the pickles have their place, especially on an NA motor, even a highly tuned one. My motor made over 900 blown rwhp with the pickles in place, I just hope that it may do better without them. Also an NA motor will rely on exhaust tuning to help fill the cylinders and the belangers probably work great there, although for top end I think a five into one header would work better. If Fat Alberts have any views or experience on pickle/no pickle, let us know.

 

[GTS Dean]

If you're mainly into street driving with occasional track forays, the Belangers are probably a fine choice.

If you're at the track running for time, or drag racing, you will (should) spend most of your time with your foot flat on the floor and engine speeds over 3000rpm. In those situations, the hp/torque improvements from 1500-3500 that the Belangers demonstrate are absolutely worthless. You will want stepped tube or big tube 5 into 1 headers with a top quality collector. If you don't spend most of a lap in the high r's, you need to go to driving school or grow some balls.

 

[Tom Welch]

My thoughts,

Your thougths are wrong....lets keep in mind that the original (and still correct) format for the V-10 Viper power plant is LOW RPM, HIGH TORQUE. With this basic
premise in mind, the Belanger design is superior.

Attempting to make a LOW RPM, HIGH TORQUE application perform in a different format usually results in failure or less than optimum results. The same can be said for taking a HIGH RPM, LOW TORQUE powerplant and attempting to adopt it to the opposite environment.

To have a 3600 pound vehicle run mid 9's at 150 MPH with "pickled" headers, while shifting at only 4500 rpm is what I would call correct usage of the combination of powerplant at its engineered application, and bolt on power adders that compliment the design characteristic of the powerplant.

In summary, don't try to make a Viper engine run like a small block Chevy. You will go faster, sound better and optimize your combination. Some of you folks remind me of the "backyard rocket scientists" who drill out nitrous jets and make their own pulley sets to increase power.

Flak Jacket On

Tom

"If we had some HAM, we could have some HAM AND EGGS, IF we had some EGGS"

 

[GTS Dean]

The odd-fire V-10 is not a small block Chevy. I still prefer a 5:1 collector. The fact that a tri-y header needs pickles in it points to some fundamental scavenging problems. (IMO)

 

[Joel]

My point is that the tri-y header doesnt need pickles and to have them there in the first place smacks of "backyard rocket science". Its a pity Lou Belanger couldnt give some input here as to the reasoning for having the pickles. I think if he could, the reason would be simple....to pull up torque at low gas flows on a normally aspirated motor. Once the volume of gas flow increases I think the pickles become a hinderance. I thought and researched carefully before removing my pickles......after all a fellow may only ever have one set of pickles.....and then took my $1800 headers and modified them. I could have just bought another set of 5:1's and sold my belangers, but they fit well and I think they will give away little to a 5:1 collector header design. Time will tell, and results will hopefully speak for themselves. I say it again........does any other manufacturer of headers or performance engines make a header with pickles......

 

[Tom Welch]

I can't speak for Mr. Belanger...but I will say that scavenging and velocity are major factors in a correctly
designed exhaust system. A GEN II Viper has over 16 FEET
of exhaust piping, any help with scavenging (pickles) will
help performance. The "venturi" design has been proven
to produce increased velocity and scavenging for centuries
and this simple process is what "pickles" do.

Also, the uneven firing order of the V-10 lends itself well
to the Tri-y design, not to mention the fitment issues
of a 5 into 1 collector. Picture in your mind what exhaust
pulses look like as they travel from the exhaust port to thru the collector. Simply put, they would appear as "hot dog" shaped pulses of air. If these pulses of air do not reach the collector at the correct time, turbulance is formed which reduces scavenging and exhaust velocity. Headers that are known as "tuned" have been tested to eliminate this turbulance. Properly tuned headers, like
Belangers actually aid in scavenging by properly sequencing
the exhaust pulses. A 5 into 1 collector (which is simply a 4 into 1 collector with another pipe added) in my opinion,
is NOT the optimum choice for our 10 cylinder engine.

With the above said, if you are racing with no exhaust past the headers, or a simple sidepipe exhaust and are generating
over 900 hp and twisting your engine to 7000 rpm, you may
want to try something that is not designed for a typical Viper as you no longer have a typical Viper...

Best of luck,

 

[PhoenixGTS]

If Fat Alberts have any views or experience on pickle/no pickle, let us know.

I put my report about Albert's comments in a separate thread. His and Lou's position is that it is a major help in scavenging.

http://vca2.viperclub.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB14&Number=539127&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#Post539133