Gen 3-4 Sub box

billseast

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I finally got around to making my new sub box for my 2003. I have had the 8" shallow mount sub sitting around for 3 years. The sub sounds good with just the stock amp.
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rosco

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question, where did you get the speaker cover for the consul
 
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billseast

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I had the box that i built a year ago in my car but it sounded like poop. So i built another one. I have one layer of fiberglass on the box right now. I set it up for the Pioneer shallow mount 8". The box has .35 cubic foot of space.
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PeterMJ

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Did the 8inch driver clear the factory opening or did you modify the bulkhead?
 

TowDawg

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I built one very similar a couple of years ago and used the same speaker. While it certainly sounded better than the stock POS, I still wanted a better sound, so I went back to the drawing board when I had the car apart installing my roll bar. I changed some stuff around and ended up squeezing a JL8W3 in there. It obviously still doesn't exactly "boom" because of the lack of space and the firing location, but it sounds pretty dang good. I would say the improvement of the JL over the Pioneer is even a bigger jump than the improvement of the Pioneer over the stock setup.
 
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billseast

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I built one very similar a couple of years ago and used the same speaker. While it certainly sounded better than the stock POS, I still wanted a better sound, so I went back to the drawing board when I had the car apart installing my roll bar. I changed some stuff around and ended up squeezing a JL8W3 in there. It obviously still doesn't exactly "boom" because of the lack of space and the firing location, but it sounds pretty dang good. I would say the improvement of the JL over the Pioneer is even a bigger jump than the improvement of the Pioneer over the stock setup.
The JL is a better sub but if you put it in a box that doesn't have enough space it will sound like a cheap sub. I have been building boxes for over 20 years and the main things I have learned is to have enough power and enough space. I built a box for two real cheap planet audio subs with the correct space and it blew away more expensive speakers sub because they were in prefab boxes that didn't have the correct amount of space.
 
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billseast

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I put some more fiberglass on it today and yes that is a viper door in the background.
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PeterMJ

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I built one very similar a couple of years ago and used the same speaker. While it certainly sounded better than the stock POS, I still wanted a better sound, so I went back to the drawing board when I had the car apart installing my roll bar. I changed some stuff around and ended up squeezing a JL8W3 in there. It obviously still doesn't exactly "boom" because of the lack of space and the firing location, but it sounds pretty dang good. I would say the improvement of the JL over the Pioneer is even a bigger jump than the improvement of the Pioneer over the stock setup.
For subwoofer to boom, you need most of all, have a cabin that can be more or less sealed. If your car is a convertible, it cannot be done. The way to overcome this is to unload the sub in the trunk and then vent the output to the interior, however, then you have to deal with rattles in the trunk and trunk lid going up and down, forcing you to use a loading board to minimize this. The most effective solution and the simplest one is to pick a driver with good linear excursion and decent power handling to overcome the effect of running your sub in small sealed box (very inefficient enclosure with low air spring effect). I do not see either the pioneer or jl subs as high excursion drivers. You need displacement, and with small cone area, excursion is the only solution.
 

TowDawg

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You're right, but in the Viper (Gen III / IV vert anyway), the isn't enough depth to go with a speaker with much excursion. The 8W3 took some work to get in there.
Also with the fuel tank between the cabin and the trunk, it's not like venting a normal trunk into a cabin.
I know some guys have had pretty good success with building a box that goes in the passenger footwell, but I didn't want to lose what little room there is in the car.
 

PeterMJ

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You're right, but in the Viper (Gen III / IV vert anyway), the isn't enough depth to go with a speaker with much excursion. The 8W3 took some work to get in there.
Also with the fuel tank between the cabin and the trunk, it's not like venting a normal trunk into a cabin.
I know some guys have had pretty good success with building a box that goes in the passenger footwell, but I didn't want to lose what little room there is in the car.
Have you considered a BP using bulkhead openings as merely exit points for ports? How hard is it to get the bulkhead off? My car is on jackstands so I cannot get to anything right now but would like to know ahead of time how to access the space behind the bulkhead. I bet there could be a solution to this problem. I already saw the fuel tank as a major obstace but who knows... I have a few Earthquake SWS subs sitting around in 8 and 15 inch sizes, they are shallow, small air space drivers and allegedly with large excursion. I would say these drivers would be a better choice to get the job done but this is just my opinion. Personally, I think the floor mounted sub is a bad idea because it is always in the way and tends to create localized sound through tonal archifacts. If there was a way to mount the sub there to fire against the corner of the cabin, you could get at least a partial loading effect but I think you would have to mounted the sub on the side of the front of the console. In viper, this is just a pipe dream though.
 
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billseast

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Have you considered a BP using bulkhead openings as merely exit points for ports? How hard is it to get the bulkhead off? My car is on jackstands so I cannot get to anything right now but would like to know ahead of time how to access the space behind the bulkhead. I bet there could be a solution to this problem. I already saw the fuel tank as a major obstace but who knows... I have a few Earthquake SWS subs sitting around in 8 and 15 inch sizes, they are shallow, small air space drivers and allegedly with large excursion. I would say these drivers would be a better choice to get the job done but this is just my opinion. Personally, I think the floor mounted sub is a bad idea because it is always in the way and tends to create localized sound through tonal archifacts. If there was a way to mount the sub there to fire against the corner of the cabin, you could get at least a partial loading effect but I think you would have to mounted the sub on the side of the front of the console. In viper, this is just a pipe dream though.
Its easy to pull the bulkhead cover. There is a cover behind your seat and it just pulls off. Then you have to take out two bolts for each roll bar. They are long and you have to use a 13mm socket to get them out i use my air ratchet. Then the stock roll bars just pull up and out. then pull all the screws there are six if i remember correct. Two are under a panel that sits beside the seats by the doors. They just pull strait up no screws.
 

PeterMJ

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Did the custom box for between the seats and still never got the response out of it that I was looking for.

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/651099-Gen-IV-Roadster-Stereo-Install
In open top car, there is nol cabin gain to reinforce your bass. When you fire into open air, the sound energy dissipates quickly without energizing the air to reproduce bass. Looking at your floor mounted sub, it will do excactly the same thing since it is not pointed against any solid wall to unload. With that said, your choice of drivers is responsible partially too. These subs would need larger enclosure to reproduce low freqs louder. These things can be done but it takes a bit of effort to set it up, picking suitable drivers.
 

PeterMJ

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I just looked up those subs. Man they are BADASS. Would you part ways with one?
Audio manufacurers lie like anyone else, I never got around to trying them out and kinda doubt they really have the claimed and LINEAR excursion, and I never saw any tests done on them like Dumax or similar testing process. Anyway, you can pick them up cheap on fleabay. I stopped doing car audio a couple of years ago, getting a bit rusty, LOL.
 

PeterMJ

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Its easy to pull the bulkhead cover. There is a cover behind your seat and it just pulls off. Then you have to take out two bolts for each roll bar. They are long and you have to use a 13mm socket to get them out i use my air ratchet. Then the stock roll bars just pull up and out. then pull all the screws there are six if i remember correct. Two are under a panel that sits beside the seats by the doors. They just pull strait up no screws.
I just cleared up my box. Anyway, does the bulkhead snap in using clips or is there something else involved?
 
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billseast

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Just to let everyone one know the box im building is not going to make the car go BOOM. I'm just trying to make a box that people can put there stock sub into and make it sound better.
If you want big boom you need a box like this.
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FrgMstr

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In open top car, there is nol cabin gain to reinforce your bass. When you fire into open air, the sound energy dissipates quickly without energizing the air to reproduce bass. Looking at your floor mounted sub, it will do excactly the same thing since it is not pointed against any solid wall to unload. With that said, your choice of drivers is responsible partially too. These subs would need larger enclosure to reproduce low freqs louder. These things can be done but it takes a bit of effort to set it up, picking suitable drivers.

Put the 8" JBL in the footwell and it does a great job down there. But like you stated here, and put with the fact that you just can't get enough air behind a sub in center.....well is just sucked. Tuned the one I have in mine between the seats as a mid-base.
 

PeterMJ

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Midbass tends to contain directional cues, like in you can tell where it is located. Did you high pass the front mids above the rear midbass or are you running them concurrently? I tried running rear midbass as a reinforcement for the fronts but had to spend quite a bit of time playing with the bandpass. If it works for you, then it is all what matters though.
 

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As everyone can probably guess by now speaker enclosure design is equal parts science, experience and luck. PeterMJ is covering all the bases very well. I will add matching the amplifier to the speaker/enclosure is critical when the overall air space is so tight. Obviously there are many other specifications that can influence your overall design and performance of the finished product but these two are very important. Basically without getting too technical “damping factor” is the ability of the amplifier to control the speaker movement. Considering our main concern is tight bass particularly at higher volumes a high damping factor is better for our application due to the small air space. The speaker “SPL” rating is how efficient the speaker is, typically the higher the wattage capability of the speaker the lower the SPL rating. An example would be if using a stock amp do not use a speaker with a 500 watt rating. To get a better understanding and more details of these specifications Google “damping factor” and speaker “SPL rating”. In my “04” I shoe horned a JL into the original housing (gutted), I tried both closed port and ported and found the ported option works best but requires fiberglass damping. I will be installing a high quality amplifier sometime soon for all speakers (JL’s also in door) soon but first need to install the more important sound system option…..headers and exhaust:D
 

Viktimize

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As everyone can probably guess by now speaker enclosure design is equal parts science, experience and luck. PeterMJ is covering all the bases very well. I will add matching the amplifier to the speaker/enclosure is critical when the overall air space is so tight. Obviously there are many other specifications that can influence your overall design and performance of the finished product but these two are very important. Basically without getting too technical “damping factor” is the ability of the amplifier to control the speaker movement. Considering our main concern is tight bass particularly at higher volumes a high damping factor is better for our application due to the small air space. The speaker “SPL” rating is how efficient the speaker is, typically the higher the wattage capability of the speaker the lower the SPL rating. An example would be if using a stock amp do not use a speaker with a 500 watt rating. To get a better understanding and more details of these specifications Google “damping factor” and speaker “SPL rating”. In my “04” I shoe horned a JL into the original housing (gutted), I tried both closed port and ported and found the ported option works best but requires fiberglass damping. I will be installing a high quality amplifier sometime soon for all speakers (JL’s also in door) soon but first need to install the more important sound system option…..headers and exhaust:D

How did the JL's fit in the doors?? Did you have to modify much to get them in there??
 

PeterMJ

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There are enclosure design and response software emulation programs out there, with WinISD being one of the easiest to use and with very well representation of real life results (minus cabin gain and loading effect). Personally, I would not get hung up on amplifier damping fact but efficiency and real life output potential. The effects of the driver and enclosure will overshadow any parameters of the amplifier in a car environment. There is a lot of marketing smoke out there and JL likes to blow plenty of it, not disclosing certain problems their amps using RIPS have. In real ife, IF you do not undersize the enclosure and use a sub suitable for the task, you may not need a lot of amp power, except for occasional dynamic peaks. Using less power is always good, considering the alternator in Viper is not the strongest one, in spite of its nominal rating.
As everyone can probably guess by now speaker enclosure design is equal parts science, experience and luck. PeterMJ is covering all the bases very well. I will add matching the amplifier to the speaker/enclosure is critical when the overall air space is so tight. Obviously there are many other specifications that can influence your overall design and performance of the finished product but these two are very important. Basically without getting too technical “damping factor” is the ability of the amplifier to control the speaker movement. Considering our main concern is tight bass particularly at higher volumes a high damping factor is better for our application due to the small air space. The speaker “SPL” rating is how efficient the speaker is, typically the higher the wattage capability of the speaker the lower the SPL rating. An example would be if using a stock amp do not use a speaker with a 500 watt rating. To get a better understanding and more details of these specifications Google “damping factor” and speaker “SPL rating”. In my “04” I shoe horned a JL into the original housing (gutted), I tried both closed port and ported and found the ported option works best but requires fiberglass damping. I will be installing a high quality amplifier sometime soon for all speakers (JL’s also in door) soon but first need to install the more important sound system option…..headers and exhaust:D
 

PeterMJ

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How did the JL's fit in the doors?? Did you have to modify much to get them in there??
I think he is talking about the enclosure behind the bulkhead. Fitting subs in the doors, even using light drivers would not be feasible considering you would have to decouple the driver from the door (build an actual enclosure in the doors). In the past, I had 10 inch subs in the doors but that required to rebuild the doors and door panels.
 

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