Headers a bad idea on '00+ cars?

[RedGTS]

Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

Dan Cragin made an interesting post on the Gen. 1/2 board, which I have linked below, about the current status of the issues relating to headers throwing check engine lights, causing mixture problems, etc. on '00+ cars. I know several of the other respected tuners follow this forum more closely than the other one, and wondered whether they (or anyone else) had any thoughts on this for those of us with newer cars considering an expensive header purchase.

Ronnie
http://vca1.viperclub.org/cgi-bin/ubb-cgi/postdisplay.cgi?forum=Forum14&topic=012272

 

[GTS Bruce]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

The headers on my 01 are giving me zerro problems with mixture,check lights or drivability.(CDI and ceramic coated).They look better,sound better etc.etc.That is of course on a car with no fuel system,plug or wire problems.Ox sensor is in the center primary tube on each banlk.They do however put out a lot more heat into the engine compartment.Stock heat shields do not fit and after driving there are a lot of under hood components that are too hot to touch.(The drivers side air intake box and various hoses and tubing.)The only problem I have is extra heat and have orderded reflective insulation from summit to protect the near by parts,hoses,starter,brake lines etc.AC worked just fine today even with all the underhood heat and it was 80+ out today.The best advice might be to leave the car bone stock if you don't want to deal with aftermarket componenet problems.Just drive it and enjoy. Bruce

 

[RedGTS]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

Bone stock!? You must be kidding.

Modding is half the fun of owning a performance car. And a key part of modding is figuring out which mods produce results without producing problems (or at least without producing problems you can't live with).

 

[ronviper]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

Dan's post is very miss leading i have a 2000GTS with headers, k&n, 3" exhaust, Mopar performance computer. The service engine light has NEVER COME ON, i have raced many 96 and newer vipers with similar updates and have never lost to any period. Headers work and work well, i dynoed 443rwhp and 481 rwtq just last weekend. That seems to be on par with most older or newer vipers. There will always be some odd ball which makes more power from the factory but that's just life. Why does all the tuners put on headers etc, it's because the engine breathes better with less restriction.

 

[GaryA]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

I have a 2000 RT/10 with 11,000 miles on it after B&B headers were installed. I've never had a check engine light or any other problem for that matter. I've seen numerous Vipers have headers and exhaust installed and never had the check engine light issue (or mixture issues for that matter).

I've met Dan Cragin, he's a great guy, and he knows more about this than I ever will, but I thought I would post my personal observations.

 

[RedGTS]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

Gary, that's what makes this so puzzling. Do the B&B headers have the sensor **** in a primary tube, or is it in the collector? And if it's in the collector, did you have to lengthen your O2 wires?

Ronnie

 

[ronviper]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

Gary A maybe the headers has something to do with it because i also have the B&B headers.

 

[THEMASH]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

I got a check engine light after 2K miles of header install, tried turning it off by reseting computer, keeps coming back on. Got the Snake box from APEX, its fine now, no check engine light.

 

[TOOOFST]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

Installed Headers,VEC-1,TOOFAST NOS on stock motor 01'ran 10's after a couple passes,Modding the viper is a beautifull thing.

 

[ronviper]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

General senus is Dan Cragin statement is wrong, headers work on our creampuff's.

 

[SUN RA KAT]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

This should clear everything up - Sean Roe's opinion and Bill Pemberton's opinion:
------------------------------------------

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

Dan Cragin is right. The '00 and up cars are a different animal. I think it safe to say that most have MIL problems with the header upgrade. I know I do. I have taken a few measures to eliminate the light. Moved the front **** up further, got a Snake box for the cat code(works well), got a code reader/eraser to get rid of the pesky PO135 code which I still get on start up every 500 miles or so. I am also planning on getting a VEC1 to fix my '00 computer extremely rich A/F ratio(dyno results).

As for the relocated O2 sensor reading only one cylinder..this is true, but even in it's correct position, it is reading a composite of the entire bank--not one cylinder. It adjusts the mixture of the entire bank to compensate for potentially one cylinder out of whack. You would need ten O2 sensors to adjust each cylinder individually. While their is some risk for me here, my guy tells me it is minimal.

All that being said, I think for a lot of people who have these cars, it is strictly a numbers..bragging rights thing, to see who makes the most power. When you start stock with 450+ HP, a 30 HP gain is only a 5 to 6% increase. I doubt you'll actually feel much difference. The increased sound does wonders for the SOTP feel. I also think that when it comes to putting the power to the road, A stock car with a good driver will probably whip any header/exhaust equipped car with an inexperienced driver whether on the track or drags.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Obviously, this doesn't clear it up. It looks like both are right, but the gains don't impress Sean, but they do Bill. The question remains - Would the gains impress me $2,000 worth?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To answer this question, I can only speak from my experience. I am taken with the Belanger sound. I have yet to hear something meaner. That's what I was after--making the car sound the way it should. Should I decide to do some head work, I believe headers are part of the equation. As our car only runs 6 months a year, I'll keep my ear to the ground on these 'quick fire' O2's Dan speaks of and maybe get a set next spring when there will be more data in on the results.


Steve

 

[ronviper]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

Like i said Headers work and work well there is no questions it out performs stock headers. From car to car there is substanctial difference but bottom line headers help.

 

[SUN RA KAT]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

Are these headers ceramic coated to keep the heat in the pipes instead of radiating excess heat under the hood?

If the headers are not ceramic coated, could that be a cause of the codes being popped up by the O2 sensors?

I have JBA silver ceramic coated headers on my Dodge Ram and after running it fairly hard there is noticably less engine compartment heat than when I had the stock headers on it.

 

[lleone]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SUN RA KAT:
Are these headers ceramic coated to keep the heat in the pipes instead of radiating excess heat under the hood?

If the headers are not ceramic coated, could that be a cause of the codes being popped up by the O2 sensors?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The code is thrown because the sensors do not heat fast enough.

 

[Ulysses]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

Belangers are Jet Hot or HPC coated (from BTR's website)(Jet-Hot is a metal-ceramic coating).

Hookers are ceramic coated. (might be the reason why silkey has had no CE light problems)

Edelbrocks are painted black or have a nickel chrome finish.

B&B gives no info on their site on whether they coat or not.

 

[SUN RA KAT]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

i ordered some parts for my Viper from Sean Roe earlier today and also talked to him about headers. He doesn't think they're worth it for the money for a non-intake enhanced Viper, but would be worth it for a super- or turbo-charged Viper. He also had some interesting (and Good) info on his Supercharger System (yeah, I'm getting headers put on my Viper) that I'll let him post here when the time is right.

 

[jcaspar1]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

"Edelbrocks are painted black or have a nickel chrome finish."

Actually the Edelbrocks are 409 stainless steel with ceramic coating inside and out . Also emissions legal in all 50 states and have matching heat shields available.

 

[ronviper]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

The topic was Headers a bad idea on 00+ cars, i think the answer is headers are good on all vipers new or old. Making your car breath freely always improves performance, name any really fast cars without headers either from the factory or aftermarket. Regardless of the number headers will show an improvement over stock and that is where i differ with Dan Cragin. The service engine light is an easy fix. Do headers work or not just put your car on the dyno there will be any increase over stock period.

 

[Ulysses]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

jcasper1 said:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Actually the Edelbrocks are 409 stainless steel with ceramic coating inside and out . Also emissions legal in all 50 states and have matching heat shields available.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes you are right, thanks for pointing that out. I missed footnote F.

(F) 409 stainless steel with ceramic coating inside and out (Viper only).

 

[Snakester]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

RonViper,

Nobody is disputing that headers will have some horsepower gain on newer Vipers. The real question is whether they are worth the gains for $1700-$3500, and whether they cause error message conflicts with the newer cars.

At least here, having a engine light on is an automatic smog test failure, and having to spend another $250+ on top of the steep header prices to have a O2 bypass loop is not attractive.

Getting a 20hp gain for $2000 is not a very good bang for the buck modification.

-Dean.

 

[ronviper]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

Snakester i am not suggesting anyone buy or not buy headers, only that they work. The faster your car is the more it costs you for 20+ hp, there is diminishing return for dollars spent. Mke Adams usually has excellent prices for viper performance parts. I spent over 30,000 dollars to pick up 1.1 seconds, crazy maybe but thats what most of us performance nuts are. If it was based on logic most of us would look to invest our money rather than spending on our cars.

 

[Snakester]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

Ron, I understand you point.

I could be tooling around in a Corolla, with a bag of money earning interest in a bank (and my wife would be happier), but I've always loved great cars, so that didn't happen (thankfully).

I'm not at the $30K-for-1.1sec-quicker threshold yet.

But it is a good goal.

-Dean.

 

[ronviper]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

Snakester it was never my intention to spend that kind of money however somewhere along the way the project got out of hand. My street car became a trailor queen which didn't completely make me happy. Moderation is the best policy, i ended up selling that car.Now i have another street car again and hope i have the common sense not to take this one too far.

 

[GTS Bruce]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

I have the stock headers hanging up in the garage so when I begin to regret how much I spent on CDI headers, I give those pos headers a look over and realise it was money well spent. Bruce

 

[ronviper]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

Snakester to make power you will end up with headers. The point is headers will become a part either early or later if you intend to mod your car. Check all the vipers old or new it seems any making 440+ rwhp have headers.Are we all just wanting to throw away money, i doubt it.

 

[Snakester]

Re: Headers a bad idea on \'00+ cars?

RonViper,

There are some Viper owners who choose to keep their cars factory stock, and there are other Viper owners who mod their cars with no concern about cost. And then there are folks like me that are deciding what my next mod will be, and saving up for it.

Headers are a logical upgrade path, as the better breathing will help every other mod added. And if Viper headers were $500, I would have them installed tomorrow. But for more than $1800 they may happen later, rather than sooner, if ever.

Some guys will happily pay $1800 for just a carbon fiber splitter, or an airbox, and be happy with the purchase.
If $1800 is worth a 20hp gain to you, on top of possible computer complications, then it's an easy choice.

For me, it's not nearly worth spending thousands of dollars if there is not much of a seat-of-the-pants gain. Now if you know of quality Viper headers that I can buy for $500, that is another matter.

-Dean.