KAdelberg V SRoe wrap up

[Gavin]

First let me aplogize for beginning a new thread but the site gave me a message the current Adelberg V Roe thread was locked.
Following is the post from Keith Verges on that thread, my question then Ken's response to Keith.

Keith Verges -Quote:
Is it just me or has no one stated what the exact problem with Ken's brakes was? (and yes I know the rears stayed locked, but I don't know why)
Was it a prop valve problem? Master cylinder problem? Adjustment or installation problem?
And yes, I know that pre'-01 Vipers have very heavy front bias (the '01 has about 5% bias switched to the rear). I have done the calculations and can tell you exactly what the bias numbers are. However, while that may affect performance by making one end lock first, I don't see it making one end stay locked up.
I'd really like to know what the problem was, exactly.
Wanna know my bet?
Someone did not adjust the actuating rod for the master cylinder/brake booster properly and so the master cylinder constantly blocked off the reservoir fluid port, causing the normal thermal expansion of brake fluid due to heat to lock the brakes.
Am I right?
If so, it was not a design problem. If not, what was it? I'd like to avoid similar problems.

Question from Gavin - Can an improperly adjusted actuator rod cause the type of rear lockup that Ken experienced. Is there someone out there with the technical know how to answer this question? PLEASE.

following is Ken's response
Keith, I would like to know the cause more than anybody. Problem is, the nearest conclusion I got was that the master/booster relationship is bad. Are they right? Who knows? Was the kit installed properly? An expert mechanic, Stop Tech and Sean Roe seemed to think so. Could it be bad parts? Of course. But Sean's solution of me having to buy more parts was inexcusable.
It seems like once Sean knew I took his kit off the car and bought another that he made up his mind that I wasn't gonna receive a penny. That's why he came on the board and made a "pre-emptive strike". Basically his comments in our last phone conversation. I find it selectively biased how he'll now only come on the board and give out driving pointers and other misc. info, but he won't acknowledge me or my problem anymore.
Again, I have no idea what the problem is with the defective kit. But this is what I DO know. I do know that I've tried and tried to get it to work; I've spent double the price of the kit trying to get it to work and I'm left with a kit that WILL lock up the rear brakes unexpectedly and not release them until the bleeder screws are cracked. I also know that I have not ever been offered any reasonable solution to get me out of this problem.

Gavins comment -Now the very first thing Ken tells us here is and I quote " I would like to know the cause more than anybody...... The nearest conclusion I got was the master/booster relationship is bad."
Further in his reply he says and I quote "I have no idea what the problem is with the defective kit"

Now this is starting to get under my skin a wee bit as after all the posts we still have no clue as to what caused the problem.

If there is a problem with the master/booster relationship - then lets not keep the problem a secret- specifically what is the problem!!!!!! Specific Technical answer required here!
I am not interested in finger pointing rhetoric - I am requesting answers to the specific questions stated herein.
Thank you for reading this.

 

[PMUM]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gavin:

Now this is starting to get under my skin a wee bit as after all the posts we still have no clue as to what caused the problem.

If there is a problem with the master/booster relationship - then lets not keep the problem a secret- specifically what is the problem!!!!!! Specific Technical answer required here!
I am not interested in finger pointing rhetoric - I am requesting answers to the specific questions stated herein.
Thank you for reading this.
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you not get this? He does NOT know what the problem is! This is what is known--when the brakes are hot and you step on them, the rears lock up. That's the effect. You can come up with the cause.

 

[Sean Roe]

Gavin,

Like you, I want to, and intend to diagnose the problem without the "smack talk".

It was published by the customer that I had inspected the installation of the brake system and deemed it to be installed properly. That was an incorrect and nonfactual statement. We asked the installing mechanic (that we had not worked with before, but the customer had experience with) to do a residual pressure check, system inspection and test in January in order to make sure that everything was working correctly and told the customer that we would take care of the bill ($360 something, we have the receipt). We were given a green light that everything was good to go and there was no trouble found after the rear wheels locked up under braking. When a mechanic over 2,500 miles away with the car in front of him tells you it's okay and the customer is satisfied with it, why should you not trust them? I certainly have had the same components on my own cars for years and never had any trouble. We all chalked it up to "had too much rear brake dialed into it" at the time, sent the customer two new rear tires at out expense and gave him some lower grip pads (he was happy and we wrote off the loss). I have never put a wrench on the customers car and have not seen all the parts in our shop since the end of November 2000. Can certaily make it difficult to sort out, can't it?

When things go wrong mechanically, they tend to leave clues as to the cause. It will potentially be more difficult to diagnose what the problem is or was because of the fact that the parts have already been removed from the car. I'll use the analogy of looking at a jigsaw puzzle in pieces and trying to determine what piece is missing without the puzzle being assembled.

We can't go back and change the past, the parts have already been removed from the car and handled by a competitive brake system company. All I can hope for is that in the process of removal, subsequent inspection and handling, any clues have not been erased.

As I told the customer, at this point, it all must begin with a return of the parts so that they may be sent to the manufacturers testing facilities, and such is our policy. I have good working relations with the manufacturers and can relay to them what the customer said happened in regard to the system holding pressure. The customers parts will be well cared for and we have no intention of loosing them or mishandling them.

After the manufacturers testing is complete, one of two things will be evident. They'll either find something wrong with a part, or nothing wrong with a part. If they find something wrong, fine, we fix that, look to work out some sort of compromise with the customer and move on with life. If they don't find anything wrong, we will do what I told the customer on the phone two weeks ago when we last had contact, which is install the brake system on one of the shop cars, test it and go from there. If laboratory testing doesn't reveal anything, perhaps real world testing will. There is an "if" and a "perhaps" that statement because of the fact that we will most likely not have all of the brake components to test and inspect unless the customer also sends his original factory combination valve, stock rear brake calipers and the 14" PFC rotors for inspection.

Those two parts not supplied with the kit (combination/safety valve and stock rear calipers) are both certainly capable of exhibiting symptoms like the customer described if they were out of spec. If the parking brake were adjusted too tightly, for example, the rear brakes could drag as the rear rotor expanded when in use on the track. This would be a clue as it would show up as an overheated parking brake caliper, which has only mechanical cables actuating it and no fluid in it at all. If the factory original brake system combination valve, which acts as a safety valve and is designed to seal off one end of the system in the event that one end of the brake system fails, had an internal fault or had been modified, it could cause a problem by not letting the fluid return to the master cylinder properly. Even an improperly setup brake pedal assembly can cause the pedal to hang up and hold pressure (customer said it seemed okay when asked about that specifically).

I'd rather not speculate further at this time in print and intend to keep my mind open as to finding the cause, once the company (Roe Racing) receives the parts. I certainly do not want to put myself in a position where what I publish could be construed as libelous.