Must read- Great oil analyis study !

ViperRay

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A well designed study IMO. Interesting that there is less engine wear with somewhat aged oil. I'm not sure what the chemical basis for this would be though. It does make one wonder whether too frequent oil changes is really a good thing. I would want to see the theoretical explanation for this before changing my equally compulsive oil changing habits however.
 

yellow94

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Sam,
Thanks so much for the link. As a relatively low mileage per year Viper driver (approx 2k/yr), I was changing the M1 oil once per year. The cost was not an issue since it was a 'diy' - my cost was for oil and filter only. Plus, it was a small price to pay versus causing (I thought) wear on the engine. However, if 'new' oil causes more wear than 'old' oil, my question is: age-wise, how long is oil good for? My understanding (my misinformation?)is that oxidation is an enemy of oil and can cause it to break down. The tests in your link are for mileage only. Has anyone independently tested the composition/breakdown of oil over time? Factory specs recommend oil changes after so many miles or after a predetermined period of time. The link unquestionably disproves the mileage factor. Think of the heat (oxidation) and contaminants after 18,000 miles! Would 5 easy years/10,000 easy miles/5 oil filter changes be any different? I'm not only concerned about my Viper, but all of my vehicles. Are we being wasteful/misinformed/destructive by adhering to the 3000/3500 'change your oil' rule? Newer cars are being advised by the manufacturers to change their oil/filter after 7,500 miles. Are we slowly destroying our engines because we think we know better? Is less more? I remember reading an article years ago about a filter of some sort long-distance truck drivers use to filter their anti-freeze as they drive. It extended the life of the anti-freeze indefinitely, not the two years or so we are accustomed to. The filter and topping it off kept it like new. In the same spirit, does 'new' antifreeze harm the water pump more than 'old' antifreeze? Is 'old', filtered antifreeze better than new? What do these same long-distance truck drivers do about their oil? What is their oil change schedule? Anyone out there willing to shed some light on this subject? I'll gladly help support independent testing regarding the mileage/age of oil. I'd much rather be driving than spending time changing oil and, in theory (or is it reality?), causing harm to my vehicle(s). Thanks again for the link Sam. I'm going to follow it closely.
 

jrkermode

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Time for Tom (Fuels and Lubes Geek of the realm) to chime in.

I recently switched to Mobil Delvac 1 based on his recommendation (Delvac is Mobil 1 for diesel engines). While searching out a supplier I visited the Mobil website. While there i read about a study where some over the road truck fleets were using change intervals of 40,000 miles. Yes, 40,000 miles. I don't recall how often filters were changed, but apparently this synthetic stuff is pretty stout.
 

SingleMalt

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Just keep in mind that if you have forged pistons (which most of us do), you will get more contamination and must change the oil more often because of the piston-to-cylinder wall clearances required... Just my .02!
 

dansauto

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yes, we do a oil anaylsis on our fleet of lifttruck and change the oil once per year! (most are propane and that of course burns cleaner) but the whole oil change policy is way overstated!
 

Tom F&L GoR

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Ding ding ding. A little added info.

Synthetic oils are not automatically better. The synthetic base oil has better oxidative stability and better low temperature properties than most mineral oils. For other properties, such as wear protection, cleanliness, friction, and corrosion protection - it's the additives blended into the oil. And since diesel oils have 2X the additives, any diesel oil will have more performane than any passenger car oil.

Round 2. There are now so highly refined mineral oils that they can match synthetics for high and low temperature performance. Recent "rulings" by the National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureau (Castrol v. Mobil) said that these "Group III" base oils can be called "synthetic" in advertising. So yes, Castrol's synthetic uses a mineral-oil derived base oil, while Mobil is still using the (more expensive to make) synthetically derived base oil. In either case, you still need additives to formulate the all-around good performance.

Round 3. Do not underestimate the power of top-ups. Some long drain oils insist on huge 3-rolls of toilet paper filters, and although you don't change the oil, you change the filter every xxxx miles. Well, change out 3 quarts every once in a while and the "oil" can go pretty long, like never needing a "change." It's exceptionally hard to conduct a fair test, but comparing oils while topping up is changing the rules as far as a technical comparison.

Round 3. Viscosity is a key factor, but is almost designed to change during the drain interval. The additives that thicken the oil shear quickly and so the first 100-1000 miles will thin the oil from new. Then as contaminants build up or oxidation occurs, the oil will thicken. So while it may stay within the viscosity grade upper and lower limits, it will move around. It's normal and part of the formulation game. Having a very shear stable viscosity improver and a very oxidatively stable base oil is more cost.

Round 4. All oils are formulated to the same performance target, so to point out that one oil has more magnesium and less calcium etc, just says that one soft drink uses this sweetener, the other uses another. They're both sweet.

Round 5. Copper is also often found when it is caused by corrosion. Fittings, coolers, etc, may "rust" (or whatever copper rust is called.)

Round 6. One cannot rely automatically on TBN for oil change intervals. By monitoring used oils one can see what does give out first, but it is not automatically TBN. TBN neutralizes acids from combustion or fuel by-products, so perhaps high sulfur fuel or less than great ring sealing would cause TBN to deplete more quickly. Lots of low temperature operation would deplete the dispersants more quickly. Lots of high temperature operation would deplete the anti-wear additive (because it does double-duty as the anti-oxidant.) The answer to when to change your oil is "it depends."

Round 7. New oil isn't worse than used oil. Sorry, it just isn't so.

Round 8. The reason there is so much "controversy" over oil change intervals is that it's the fluid that gets stuff delivered to it. Gear oils, transmission fluids, coolants, brake fluid all are in a relatively "closed" environment and so they are often fill-for-life. Engine oil has fuel, water, dust, fuel additives, and maybe coolant added to it, so it has to defend itself. And that is the root cause of why it's hard to predict and dangerous to assume an oil change interval. You might consider changing oil every 300 gallons of fuel consumed. You might change it less often on highway trips. You shouldn't extend drains just because you use a synthetic oil. Truck fleets religiously use oil analysis to determine drain lengths, but can do so only because the truck is on the same route, same distance, same oil every time. It starts once a day and is running warmed up all day. How many passenger cars have that routine?

Round 9 Sure, the 3500 mile OEM recommendation is conservative. They don't pay for the oil. They do pay for warranty work. OEMs hammer on oil companies to make better oils. They don't buy them. Consumers pay for them. OEMs pay for warranty work. Do OEMs extend the drain allowed if you use the new oils? No, since they pay for warranty work. It will be a while before the car companies advocate extended drain.

Round 10 So if you can't accurately predict a longer oil drain interval and you're not going to get help from the OEM, what to do? Change when recommended. Or add protection. 90% of the added benefit comes from additives blended into the oil, and diesel oils have more than twice the additive level as passenger car oils.

Post-fight hint: A good oil turns dark quickly! The dispersants pick up sludge and dirt and suspend it in the oil so it is removed with the next oil change. A poor oil may stay cleaner-looking longer. So used oil analysis is indeed the way to see what is happening.

I'm sure I didn't answer everything, maybe added more to the fog. It's a pretty interesting and complicated topic.
 

yellow94

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Tom,
Thanks for the info. But what's the bottom line in general? I don't think cost or inconvenience is the issue here, especially for Viper owners. It's "what's best for our vehicles"? Do we go with the 3k oil change or ramp it up to 5 or 10k? We want to do what's best.
 

Tom F&L GoR

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What happens when an oil ages is slow at first, then once something is used up, the deterioration is much quicker. Additives are often multifunctional, so they are there to do one thing, but help in other areas. Depleting one "type" of additive then quickly drags down the others, too. The trick to getting the maximum life of your oil is knowing where the "knee" in the curve is.

Personally, and using a diesel engine oil, I target 4000 miles, happy if I get to change it by 5000 miles. It's a 10 quart sump, so feel comfortable that it's twice the size of engines that also go that far. Yes, it's also a bigger engine, and so maybe the 250 or 300 gallons of fuel idea works. That compensates for horsing around, highway, or track use.

Whatever you decide, don't miss one. In the taxi testing I've seen, the one longer drain that lets the oil really crud up is irreversible. No oil formulation has cleaned up dirty parts well, they only keep things clean. Get some varnish, some sludge, or whatever, take a picture, because trying 1000 mile oil changes won't help make it go away.
 

yellow94

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Tom,
Viper-wise, I'll never see 4 to 5k in a single season. There just isn't enough time or season to do so here in CT. My real concern is: should I change 2 or 3k oil or let it sit in an aluminum block until next season? I'm more concerned about time vs mileage. Is diesel oil more stable than regular oil? Is it just better to change it at 2 or 3 or 4k and not worry about potential damage? I'd appreciate any discussion.
 

Nexus-6

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I change the oil/filter in the "toys" once a year. They each see between 1~2K a year. I would actually love to put more miles on them but I have 5 of them to cycle into use every 2 to 3 weeks.

In the Viper, that's about 2K miles between changes.

Daily ****** gets it every 3K 'cause it's cheap insurance for my peace of mind. :) It's like checking the deadbolt on the front door at night even though you know it's locked...just feels good to make sure.
 

Tom F&L GoR

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Low mileage drivers might want to change every year, not because of the oil itself, but if you don't drive at least 30-40 minutes to get the *oil* (not water) over 200F, the water and fuel that gets in there won't get hot enough to be boiled out. Lots of engine starts that accumulate fewer minutes of on-time (that never allow the engine to warm up) are much worse than a few longer on-time events. In fact, one of the engine tests to qualify an oil (Sequence V test) is exactly for this severe condition. Removing the contaminants via an oil change is cheap insurance.

Also for the low mileage, you aren't going to stress the oil greatly, so a passenger car oil is fine.

It sounds like there's an opportunity here for 335/35 sized snow tires, that way we can drive more...
 

GR8_ASP

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Naw, I check it every 5 years or so and if it is still slippery to my fingers I keep going. Chunks is my clue that it is time.

And regarding filters I have yet to fill one with gunk. I think they are designed to last a lifetime :)

No need for snow tires here in Michigan. Chains are the answer. If you keep it under 80 or so the chains don't hit the fenders.
 

Gerald

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[hijack]I hear you Ron, here in Florida right now it's a BLUE SKY and SUNNY with temps around mid 60's for highs (cold front just came thru).... When we usually hit the beach we add a little Clearwater beach's fine sugar sand into the oil dipstick tube.. Friends tell me it cleans the cylinder walls and valves from years of grime and grit. I just don't understand why I'm burning 5 quarts oil a day :confused: [/highjack]
 

RT/ED

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This last year, I switched to Amsoil for the entire drive train. The Amsoil website (amsoil.com) shows specific comparisons to other synthetics, i.e., Mobil 1. Understanding that their stats may be biased, and as a long time customer of Mobil I, I e-mailed Mobil 1 for information on their products as compared to others....no response. 2nd e-mail finally resulted in this SORRY response "we do not have competitors information". Mobil 1 lost a 15 year customer as I switched to a product that has been around the longest and is able to back it up with stats. Ultimately, I suspect that any name brand synthetic will perform well, including Mobil 1. I just like knowing that my choice, Amsoil, stands behind their claims with supporting lab statistics and competitor comparisons, you may want to check it out for yourself. :usa:
 

Jay Herbert

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Ding ding ding. A little added info.

...Round 9 Sure, the 3500 mile OEM recommendation is conservative. They don't pay for the oil. They do pay for warranty work. OEMs hammer on oil companies to make better oils. They don't buy them. Consumers pay for them. OEMs pay for warranty work. Do OEMs extend the drain allowed if you use the new oils? No, since they pay for warranty work. It will be a while before the car companies advocate extended drain...

Exellent points as always! One thing I am seeing more and more of is offering free oil changes "for life" (of ownership?) for new vehicle sales. Maybe this is an attempt to help drive down warranty costs (and get the cars back into the dealership to look for ways to make money :) )
 

Jay Herbert

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This last year, I switched to Amsoil for the entire drive train. The Amsoil website (amsoil.com) shows specific comparisons to other synthetics, i.e., Mobil 1. Understanding that their stats may be biased, and as a long time customer of Mobil I, I e-mailed Mobil 1 for information on their products as compared to others....no response. 2nd e-mail finally resulted in this SORRY response "we do not have competitors information". Mobil 1 lost a 15 year customer as I switched to a product that has been around the longest and is able to back it up with stats. Ultimately, I suspect that any name brand synthetic will perform well, including Mobil 1. I just like knowing that my choice, Amsoil, stands behind their claims with supporting lab statistics and competitor comparisons, you may want to check it out for yourself. :usa:

The thing that is interesting about Amsoil is they really started out in aviation. I remembr going to the Oshkosh EAA fly-in (before I could drive)... Amsoil was there pushing the benefits of synthetics in high load experimental aircraft engines. I'm betting aircraft oils are high in additives too... Tom?
 

Tom F&L GoR

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Actually, aircraft oils were low in additives. There was such a paranoia about oil additives in higher oil consumption conditions that would cause combustion chamber deposits, which would cause knock, which in an airplane may be undectable due to the normal noise. Also, there is no alternative to a full power take-off (or landing?) and so piston burning was at risk. In the 70's, race engine builders would use aircraft oils for the same reason - the engines would last 500 miles and if there was oil consumption, it wouldn't kill the engine. I don't know what the current technology is, other than knowing that aircraft engines are tremendously overbuilt- for good reason.
 

old96er

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I remember a while back someone mentioning that synthetic was more likely to leak past gaskets and seals compared to mineral oil. Is there any truth to this?
 

Cobra4B

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This subject has been beated to death on almost all car forums. You guys provided some great information here. Personally, I think every 3k is marketing to get people to spend more money. I use Mobil-1 and change it every 6-8k w/ a K&N oil filter. Vettes have an oil life monitor, and if I let it go until it told me to change it it'd be around 10k miles. After I finish the oil consumption test I'm switching to AMSOIL in the engine (it's already in my tranny)
 

Tom F&L GoR

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Synthetic base oils are not mineral oil based (duh) and they therefore did not keep some hydrocarbon-based seals and gaskets flexible. In chemistry, "like dissolves like" and so mineral oils would keep these materials soft. Switching to synthetics let them dry and shrink, so they leaked. OEMs quickly changed to better gasket materials, and the last car made with non-compatible materials was the first generation Mazda rotary (I think.) Nothing to worry about for a long time.
 
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