Road course tips needed!

phiebert

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In a couple weekends I will be racing in my first "road course" set up on a Oval track. I have drag raced quite a bit in the past but am really looking forward to this racing. I don't have a clue what to expect and the 5 other guys out will likely have done a lot of this.

Any tips for me...other than "Stay home!"?
 

pdmracing

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The basics
Flush your brake fluid & put in new pads & bed them in properly or at the very least bring a set with you. High speeds will quickly wear out stock pads. Start with 32 to 35 psi with stock tires. Always accelerate, shift( up or down) & brake in a straight line. This sounds obvious but isn't. Treat the gas & the brake as if it were attached to a strong spring, it has an equal reaction in both planes. Don't lift on off the gas...roll off ,same with the brakes ..don't mash , squeeze,,, no abrupt lifting off either pedal, be smooth in both applications. Never lift off the gas in a corner especially on banking, you will spin. When you spin, both feet in ..brake hard & constant & put the clutch in. The clutch in will keep your engine running, & make sure you keep the brake on even when you stop spinning, most damage is from rolling into something after the fact. Keep these simple tips in mind & go out & have what will probably be the best time you ever had. There is nothing like your first time....
 

Jason Heffner

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The best thing I can tell you is, no matter what they tell you, NEVER let anyone drive your car. Even an instructor, even if you're in the car. I let an instructor dive my OLD Viper at my first road course event. He wanted to "show me the lines". Within three turns he hit a tire barrier at over 100 mph with me in the car, and I was telling him to slow down. Good luck, be safe , have fun.
 

GTS Bruce

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Take it easy.NO one since Jackie Stewart brakes only in a straight line.On an oval its turn in and brake.Left foot that is.Even the late M Donohue was a trailbraker(brake and turn in while braking).Braking lighter as the apex is approached and you transition gently to power.Of course that does not mean jumping on the pedal and standing the car on its nose.Anyone braking in a straight line will be passed immediately on an oval by many and at least a few on a road course.Have a good time.WATCH AND LEARN.Go slow,Work up.Remember going in fast is the slow way around.Have a good time.Do a few laps and take a break to think about them.You will drive better and the car will appreciate the cool down.Don't let your adrenalin get ahead of your head.Oh if there is banking never and I MEAN NEVER turn toward it.Only correct toward the infield.D Ernhardt turned up the banking to try to save it and couldn't make the save.Went in almost head on and so will you.If you are going left on banking never turn right and visa-versa.Position hands accoringly so that when going left through a corner it means going left when hand and arms are back to neutral or straight ahead position.Scared a little?Good you should be.Better to be a little slow than to hit a wall. Bruce
 

pdmracing

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I beg to differ with you Bruce, with a novice in a 450 hp car you need to know what your doing to trail brake,especially on an oval.
 

99t1

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Jason..what club was that? Many of the "better" driving schools certify their instructors and many go through a rigorous instructor training program. Trackmasters.com is one of the best in the Northeast.

Do let the instructor drive your car first, then go slow and just familiarize yourself with the layout of the track and flag stations. Let the instructor teach and you LISTEN TO THEM. DO WHAT THEY SAY AND HAVE FAITH IN THEM. A good instructor will not take a novice beyond their comfort level. If you start slow and make adjustments in small increments then you will find that the speed will come naturally without working for it and all the while your having the best time of your life!!!

You definitely should NOT attempt left foot or trail braking or try to learn toe heel shifting at this point. Concentrate on being smooth and fluid. Run in the rain if you can...it's the best for learning. Brake in a straight line. Who cares who passes you. There might be a Neon behind you with an instructor in it who WILL pass you so relax.

I like to drive home in the same car I came to the track in and I’m sure you feel the same way. Even if you get signed off to drive alone, as a first timer, I recommend you still take an instructor, maybe a different one for another perspective. They usually drive for free and you pay the entry fees so make em work! They are there for your benefit.

Start by learning safety then track etiquette and then learn the high performance driving skills in that order.

After the weekend you will be “hooked” and probably begin to spend a small fortune on this wonderful sport. Start with the 5-point belts then on and on…
 

Jason Heffner

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My incident was at Summit Point Raceway In West Virginia. At the beginning of the frst session a different, more sensible instructor did drive my car. He was very careful with it and never attempted to push the limits of the car. At the beginning of the third session I went out with a different instructor. I began the session with myself driving and was doing quite well. After several laps the instructor told me to pit the car and that he would drive for a few laps and show me how to be a little smoother. He left the pit area with tires blazing, got on the brakes late coming into the first turn but somehow managed to avoid going off course, took the car sideways around the second turn, then headed towards turns three while commenting on how much power the car had. Heading towards turn four I told him to slow down, I wasn't comfortable with the speed he was approaching the turn with. He continued to accelerate towards the turn, started into the turn when the car went into a four wheel slide, then this idiot tries to drive out of it by smashing the gas pedal to the floor. The car then started to spin out, we went sideways across a gravel pit and struck a tire barrier. The only thing he said was geez man I'm sorry, the important thing is you're OK! I was liable for all of the repairs, the track payed for nothing. Luckily my insurance company paid the car off. Needless to say there will be no more road course action for me. The reason I say not to let an instructor drive your car is because they will not be responsible for your car, if it's going to get wrecked at least you should wreck it then you'll only have yourself to blame.
 

Sonny 00 GTS ACR

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Jason, that is a truly sad story. Certainly for your outcome, but also for the damage it does to the dedication of the many good instructors who risk their lives while teaching us to drive.

Panoz Racing School chief instructor Beau Barfield met with a group of students before they drove with an instructor in the passenger seat and summed up the situation: he said "don't try to impress me because you can't, and don't try to scare me because I already am."

Imagine someone getting into a car with a person they have never met and know nothing about. Then trusting that person to follow directions while controlling a car with the power of a Viper.

My point is that we are lucky that people are willing to ride with us and help us to learn to drive the Viper. Use their skill and abilities to help understand car control and you have gained something very special.

That being said, not all instructors are equal in terms of judgement or ability and if they are going to drive your car, do not be shy about establishing ground rules before starting. Explain what your goals are and especially if they are not used to the Viper make sure they agree to pull the plug if you find yourself uncomfortable.

And Phiebert; Everyone who has given advice on this post has made good sense. Read through it and sift out what you think will help you at the track. It should be a great experience. You can learn a great deal from the right instructor either by having them moderately drive your car or by riding with them in their car. Just make sure you have proper confidence in them before you hand over the keys.

Autocross, Track days, Driving Schools, Racing Schools, and Viper Days are all great resources for learning car control and usually produce a smile that remains for weeks - ask anyone who has done it!

Good Luck
BURNOUT.gif
BURNOUT.gif
 

Jason Heffner

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Origionally posted bt Sonny: That being said, not all instructors are equal in terms of judgement or ability and if they are going to drive your car, do not be shy about establishing ground rules before starting. Explain what your goals are and especially if they are not used to the Viper make sure they agree to pull the plug if you find yourself uncomfortable.


You said it!
 

DanElam

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Ok. I will weigh on this one. I am a Viper Owner, licensed instructor, drive/instruct at Summit Point, and just finished both racing and instructing this past weekend at Charlotte/Lowe's in-field road course (the original part of the thread).

Let me be the first to say that all instructors are not equal. I am firm believer that you should really try to match up with guys who drive the same type of car that you drive. This past weekend I had a tricked out Cobra R and Z06 for my students. the idea is that I am more in tune that a front wheel drive guy is likely to be. I also usually tell the students when I first get in the car not to be bashful if my style doesn't match theirs: everyone is different and they have paid they money and should get the best experience they can. You need to speak up and quiz your instructor on what they have done and what they want to teach you. DON'T BE BASHFUL - I am convinced that the industry runs off plenty of potential students.

I get a giggle when Viper/Ferrari guys show up at the track. Unfortunately, we often reinforce the image of a Viper owner being a wealthy guy who doesn't listen. A lot of Viper guys think their car is the be-all-end-all and that all the instructor wants to do is drive this hot car. Yawn. Most instructors are scared to death of driving a student's car. In most cases, we only do it if the student is having real trouble. But sometimes, the instructor can save you a TON of time on the learning curve. This weekend my Z06 student was doing okay, but not great. He asked if I would drive his car during an instructor session and take him out to show him the line. We did and this bright guy gained in a few minutes what would have taken him days if I had been in the right seat. It doesn't usually work that way in all truthfulness, but with the right student, it can really help.

Now, let me tell you about the part that wasn't great this weekend. A friend of mine was a student with another instructor. He brought his 993 Porsche - a pretty decent car. He really wanted to argue with the instructor and kept saying that his car needed a different line from what the instructor was showing him. In short, a typical high performance driver thinking that the sweaty instructor didn't know how to drive his car. His wife really wanted to take a ride on the track so I took her in the Porsche and promised I would tell him if the line worked. (The regular line worked fine.) After cruising a few laps at around 160MPH, I backed off and came around at about 140MPH when the right rear tire suffered a catastrophic failure. We were just inches from the wall entering NASCAR turn 3. I stayed out of the wall and got us back to the pits, but the defective race tire caused about $20K of damage to the car. If it had happened to him, it might have totalled the car. But it happened to me and I felt miserable all weekend.

There isn't a reason for an instructor to drive your car at the very edge (except in rare situations where you practice braking. Braking, not breaking.) You can learn the line at pretty slow speeds.

So the bottom line is that an instructor can help you learn very quickly when they drive your car. Don't be bashful - ask for a different instructor if yours doesn't match up with you. A mismatch doesn't mean personality flaw on the part of you or the instructor (I have made students go to other instructors because I didn't think my style was as effective with them.) Before they drive your car, make sure that you know their experience. Finally, ask them if they intend to reimburse you if they overdrive you car. At the very least, it will keep the instructor in the right frame of mind.


So, back to the topic at hand: driving ovals. First, ignore the ovals. Just drive them for fun, but don't bother to drive them at the edge. You shouldn't have any problems if you stay close to the white line, but I just can't see where it makes that much sense to take a chance at those speeds. High speed banks are just good for car control and you can learn that on the infield. Have fun on the banks, but don't try to get to 150 or so. 100-120MPH should be _plenty_ fast on most tracks. If you do get close to the edge, hold a little throttle. You don't want to lift since it causes lift throttle oversteer and can send you up the bank.

Don't waste your time left foot braking either unless you are going to do it all the time. (Since you have a synchronizer, you probably won't.) I like to teach students car control, the line, and then braking. The in-field courses are typically pretty tight: they don't lend themselves to the heavy Viper as you try to power around the track. Those Miatas and BMWs will gain on you in certain portions of the track. It's ok.

Have fun. Stay calm. Remember it isn't a competition.
 

TacDoc

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I too will differ with GTS Bruce. Until you have experience do not ask the tires to do more than one thing at a time. One of the quickest ways to exceed the slip angle of your tires is to ask them to turn and brake. Brake in a straight line, and as you squeeze on the accelerator through a corner unwind the steering wheel. As my instructor told me, imagine a string connects the accelerator to the Steering wheel ( turn the wheel lift the throttle, depress the throttle unwind the steering ). Be safe, have fun.

BTW Jason, why no more road course action???
 

Jason Heffner

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Why no more road course action? There was just too much headache involved the last time. My insurance company has now excluded coverage on any type of race course even if it's a driving school. I am very meticulous with my cars and even if my car had only gone off course I would've had to repaint half of the car from stone chips. Maybe in time I'll go back out on a road course but it would have to be a Viper days event or something like that. The thought of some guy in a Honda losing control and running into me makes me cringe. At least if there are only Vipers on the track I'll take comfort in knowing that everyone loves there car as much as I do. Jason Heffner
 

Vic

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I had Phil Goglia (sp?) drive my Viper to show me the line at Buttonwillow.

He said he would drive it at 80%, which calmed me down. Even at 80% or so, he was still getting better lap times than me, since he was smoother.

Horsepower doesn't teach you how to drive, rather, it compensates for sloppy technique.

You might as well learn road racing in an average "sporty" car, even with like 200 HP, until you learn the line, technique, etc.

Maybe after that, the Viper would offer a signifigant advantage for better times, with its road holding and power.
 

DanElam

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jason Heffner:
Maybe in time I'll go back out on a road course but it would have to be a Viper days event or something like that. The thought of some guy in a Honda losing control and running into me makes me cringe. At least if there are only Vipers on the track I'll take comfort in knowing that everyone loves there car as much as I do. Jason Heffner

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

&lt;cringe&gt; Jason, the issues of control come down to the school. The school should have very strict rules about passing and when you can do things. The instructors at good schools control that pretty tightly.

Please don't take this as a flame, but the statement that "I'll take comfort in knowing that everyone loves their car as much as I do' is just the kind of statement that makes instructor cringe when they see a Viper owner. As a group, we have earned the reputation of being wealthier-than-average people who crave attention and performance. Overwhelmingly, it is the Viper driving going off course or whacking something - not the Honda driver. Some of the racing Viper guys treat their cars as a minor investment and think you have to drive on the edge to learn. The Honda guys usually have to drive their car home from the track. It's the RX-7 and older cars that you have to worry about: these guys bought the car specifically so it could be whacked.

When I first became an instructor I used to get pissed when the instructors would ride my Viper buddies harder than the regular drivers. One instructor finally explained to me that, in general, the Viper guys tend to be hard headed and the ones that cause problem. Since then, I have reluctantly had to agree with them.

Want to see a 'typical' Viper driver from the instructor perspective? Here is a rich guy who came real close to totaling his Viper while getting his race license only to come back and do this in one of his first races:
http://www.elams.org/Racing/2002/Kershaw%202002%20Summer/Viper_small.mpg

If the school is well run, you won't have any problems. Recently we had a guy with an ACR at Charlotte. Nice guy with a good head. My student had a Z06 and was a better driver. The Viper guy didn't get his ego in the way and try to keep up with the Z06. The result? I watched the Viper guy get _significantly_ better in just one weekend, never risked the car, and came away grinning ear to ear.
 

Jason Heffner

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Believe me, I am no hot shot, nor do I think I am a race car driver. I don't think or care if I am the fastest or have the fastest car. I am not interested in racing my Viper in a wheel to wheel race. I just wanted to learn to be smoother, handle my car better and most of all have some fun. The instructor doing fifty three tousand dollars in damage is no fun! I rode with a different instructor earlier in the day who is also a VCA member, Mike Piscelli, I think if you were to ask him he would agree that I personally was driving my car in a very conservative manner. I could care less if a guy in an S2000 passes me, he might be a better driver, good for him, just go by and be gone. I would agree with you that maybe not every Viper guy cares for his car as much as me. The fact is if my insurance company won't pay for another Viper that gets wrecked on a road course so it's a big risk to go out there again. Noone can guarantee my car won't be damaged. What I will probably do is buy another car to use specifically for road racing. It is lots of fun but a Viper is too expensive to tear up for me.
 

99t1

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try autocross..it's lots of fun too and VERY competitive and will hone your car control skills with only an occasional rubber cone to be concerned about.
 
S

SUN RA KAT

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Jason Heffner -
That's exactly the same attitude I'll have next April when Viper Days comes to Mid Ohio.
 

DanElam

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Jason- Great attitude! If we could get more guys like you then maybe we could change the image!

I went with the FFR Spec Cobra (as you can see in the little picture to the left) for my racing. As much fun as the Viper is, I decided that I couldn't really afford wheel to wheel racing with the Viper. Whacking the Viper hood gets expensive.

The Cobra is actually a little faster off the line than the Viper, but obviously doesn't have the top speed or handling. It's been blast. A big reason why I picked it is because it handles so much like a Viper. If you want more information on the fun we have had with our car, you can click on:

Elam's Racing with the FFR Cobra

I used to autocross, but wheel to wheel racing is a _lot_ more fun. Hope you all get to try it.
 

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