Still on the hunt! Differences between 97 to 99?

[Tusc]

I finally made the call to sell my troubled '00 C5 coupe. The car spent 9 months of the past two years in the shop for warranty work, so its time to move on. I bought the car new with the intent of keeping it forever, but I don't feel like footing the bill with so many non-drivetrain-related problems popping up that have it out of commission for months at a time.

Over the summer I tried to educate myself on Viper since, as so many of you have posted, the recent market is leaning in the buyer's favor. I am generally looking at '97 to '99 Vipers with under 5,000 miles. I believe I will be buying over the Winter or in the Spring since I don't want to put too many more miles on the C5 and wish to avoid the added expense of new tires and clutch when I am about to trade or sell it off.

My question to you guys concerns production changes to the Viper between 1997 and 1999. Like I know that in 97 the RT/10 first came with the G2 450hp engine and '01 was the first year for ABS, etc. But what are some changes between 97 and 99? Any different oil pans? Different intake gaskets? Different shift forks? Those are just examples, I don't know if they were changed in those years.

I always educate myself on an item before I buy, and I would like to be able to know what is what between these years.

I've been active in the local Corvette and Camaro clubs out here, and if I trade off to a Viper I'm sure I'll be seeing more than a few of you at Lime Rock Park or Watkins Glen next summer for some fun. I haven't raced the C5 because I was using it as my daily, but I plan to change my Camaro back to street use from its track setup over the Winter so any new car I get will see fewer miles but a lot more fun!

 

[Marv S]

http://ivr.viperclub.org/viperfeatures.html

and
http://www.viperclub.org/menus/index_how_tsb.htm
.

http://www.viperclub.org/menus/index_ivr.htm

 

[George Murray]

Brett - good call. You seem like way to cool a guy to suffer through 'Vette ownership!

 

[Tusc]

Thanks for the links, Marv.

George, do I know you from the Corvetteforum?

After going through the links there, I have a few more pointed questions.

The adjustable foot pedals - do they each adjust individually or all as one?

Why did Dodge switch back to cast pistons from 2000-up instead of keeping the forged slugs from 96-99?

What were the spring rates before the change in 2000 to 500 lb/in F and 1100 R spring rates?

Also - the cam specs for the G2 engine are all close, but has anyone seen better power from the 98 that could be attributed to the cam instead of the exhaust changes? I know the lift is a minor change, but on a heavy breathing engine at high rpm it might be worth that little notch more

Believe me, I don't intend to tear into any Viper I may buy immediately. I would go the bolt-on route until the engine needed a rebuild before messing with heads/cam. I mean, 450hp becomes 520 with full exhaust and some bolt-ons, becomes 780 w/ juice.... how far do I really need to go? Plenty of room to grow with these serpents, huh?! Or do you guys call that something like "the shedding of the skin"?

Edit: based on production changes and TSBs, I've pretty much reduced the years I am looking at to 98 / 99. The 99 would be preferable with the Michelins, different door handles, shift knob, lack of driving light covers, and hatch release.... but those aren't major selling points.

Now I have to find a person or dealership that will put me behind the wheel for half an hour. I've had two opportunities fall through in the past because of changing schedules. But I don't see myself saving over the winter for and buying a Viper without some stick time to be "sure" that it is right. Anyone know another owner or a dealership near me that would put someone behind the wheel if they don't have that certified check in hand? It was hard enough as a Corvette owner to get a dealer to give me the keys to a USED '02 Z06 and I figure it must be even tighter with the Vipers. Any suggestions?

 

[Marv S]

You're welcome,

1996+ and 1997 rt/10+ Pedals adjust as a unit, all together, by turning a knob. (the 2003 has electric adjustables)

pistons went to eutectic for emmissions reasons

eutectic or forged
.
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/page03.htm
.
eutectic vs forged discussion - scroll down on page
.
http://www.taperformance.com/hyperteu.htm


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brett 91 RS LT1:
Thanks for the links, Marv.
The adjustable foot pedals - do they each adjust individually or all as one?

Why did Dodge switch back to cast pistons from 2000-up instead of keeping the forged slugs from 96-99?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[Marv S]

I'm not sure what your point is here. That '98 went to a different exhaust manifold? A stock '97 with the cast iron exhaust (not the short tubes like 98+) manifold went 192 mph.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brett 91 RS LT1:
Also - the cam specs for the G2 engine are all close, but has anyone seen better power from the 98 that could be attributed to the cam instead of the exhaust changes? I know the lift is a minor change, but on a heavy breathing engine at high rpm it might be worth that little notch more

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[Marv S]

That's a lot of extra ponies from straight pipes and ram air. Sure it wasn't forced air?
http://www.maximum-cars.com/Cars/Car.php?carnumber=375


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brett 91 RS LT1:
Interesting about the top speed run there. I have pushed my '00 Coupe to 191 mph redlining 5th gear with straight pipes and ram-air.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[Tusc]

ROTFLMFAO - no, no speedo problems... not unless the tach is off, too! I can confirm at least 188mph because 6000 rpm in 5th gear (0.74) with 3.42s at the rear with 275/40/zr18 meats in on the drive wheels would be exactly 188mph. The PCM doesn't shut off fuel until over 6100 and I was skating just above 6000. The speedo, which goes by 20mph increments over 100mph, had crept past the 190 mark. How accurate it is, I do not know. I can confirm that it hit 188, and I claim that it hit 191 and possibly 192.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it! =P

How often have I gone that fast? ONCE! So I could see what the car could do and say that I had done it. There simply aren't many sections of road out here conducive to that sort of driving, even at 4am. Except for a few occasions in the first few months, the car has been kept to much more reasonable speeds.... not the speed limit, mind you, just more reasonable speeds. =)

Edit:
Marv - yeah, a few extra ponies. Never dyno'd though. For perspective, I once ran another C5 6-speed w/ headers, h-pipe, cat-back and some air filter according to the owner. I didn't kill him mercilessly, but after I got into 2nd gear I was walking him. I recognize that some will and can claim driver skills as the difference, but I have yet to lose to a bolt-on C5 that hasn't been sprayed, H/C'd, or boosted.

 

[Tusc]

For further reference, without doing a burnout or launching hard (remember, daily driver here) I managed a 13.0 @110.52 That is from a 1400rpm launch with no powershifting, just hard shifts. That is also before the ram-air or SLP mufflers.

When I say ram-air, what I have is the Brethless Performance Products Vortex Ram-air system. Basically replaces the stock air filter box. One part goes where the factory one was, then I cut through the radiator shroud and installed the lower scoop section. In the middle is a filter that connects to the 3" factory tubing and which has a filter element around the outside and then another inverted filter section in the center instead of just an end-cap like K&N uses. For a long time I have been curious as to how much HP a C5 makes at top speed such as what I did with this system. That is, I am curious if the ram-air system generates some level of forced air and positive manifold pressure at high speeds. That would account for the frequent "factory freak" comments I get about how my car runs against some C5s.

As for the mufflers, they aren't really mufflers. I still have the factory cats and h-pipe on the car, but these are just pipes that route around the differential and go straight to the tips. There is no muffling material or design to them. The closest thing to muffling is an insert that you can put in where it bolts to the factory exhaust. All the insert is is some metal grating we affectionately call chicken wire that is supposed to baffle a little bit of the sound. But it really has no effect. I never installed it.

If you accept that the current Z06 LS6 makes 425fwhp and that every LS1 engine in every Camaro, Trans Am and regular C5 makes 365fwhp... then it is my educated guess coming from the finely tuned sensors I have invested in known as SOTP that my car sits somewhere in the 385hp range. I'd be curious to see what my car would do in the 1320 if it had the lower weight and better gearing of the Z06.

 

[Tusc]

That was a good read about the hypereautectics and the T6 treatment. Coming from a Chevy background, I assumed that hypereutectic meant the same crappy pistons which they put in our LT1 engines. Those pistons used to let go on stock NA engines! It would make sense that a platform such as the Viper would go with a serious slug, hence the T6 heat treatment. That is good to know, I always enjoy reading tech articles.

Still, I think a '00+ model would be beyond what I am looking to pay for a low-miles Viper. I can get a 98 or 99 with ~3k miles for probably $10-20k less than a 2000+ depending on the owner and the location. Same car, same miles, but an extra $20k for other toys

I'm still really young, so I value my "toy fund!"

Interesting about the top speed run there. I have pushed my '00 Coupe to 191 mph redlining 5th gear with straight pipes and ram-air. When I asked about the difference in HP w/ the different cams and exhaust manifolds I realized that any difference would be minimal, if even detectible. But I know that there must be one year or combo of cam/manifold that owners consider "hairier" than another by whatever grounds they use to compare them. So I was curious to find out which year(s) owners generally refer to as being better in their opinion or based on dyno sheet facts.

 

[BUD]

191 mph? I think Chevy has speedometer problems, too. LOL <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brett 91 RS LT1:
That was a good read about the hypereautectics and the T6 treatment. Coming from a Chevy background, I assumed that hypereutectic meant the same crappy pistons which they put in our LT1 engines. Those pistons used to let go on stock NA engines! It would make sense that a platform such as the Viper would go with a serious slug, hence the T6 heat treatment. That is good to know, I always enjoy reading tech articles.

Still, I think a '00+ model would be beyond what I am looking to pay for a low-miles Viper. I can get a 98 or 99 with ~3k miles for probably $10-20k less than a 2000+ depending on the owner and the location. Same car, same miles, but an extra $20k for other toys

I'm still really young, so I value my "toy fund!"

Interesting about the top speed run there. I have pushed my '00 Coupe to 191 mph redlining 5th gear with straight pipes and ram-air. When I asked about the difference in HP w/ the different cams and exhaust manifolds I realized that any difference would be minimal, if even detectible. But I know that there must be one year or combo of cam/manifold that owners consider "hairier" than another by whatever grounds they use to compare them. So I was curious to find out which year(s) owners generally refer to as being better in their opinion or based on dyno sheet facts.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>