Re: The Video you MUST See. Confirmed Ferrari 355 CHALLENGE car Kill...
Heres a reply on the Ferrari forums:
First off I like Vipers so don't get the wrong impression here, but a few points to consider:
1) Black Hawk Farms is hardly what I would call a world-class racetrack...more like a go-kart track.
2) I can keep up with and pass in most cases a well-driven 348 Challenge in my "lowly" 300 hp 15 year old BMW M5 Club Racer. My 355 C will absolutely annihilate a 348 Challenge. You could put Michael Andretti in the 348 and that car still wouldn't stand a chance against my 355 C.
4) Rob is actually incorrect about a first generation Viper beating a 355 C anywhere but at the drag strip. Both cars (355 C and the Viper) race against each other in SCCA Regional and National in T1 class. At Watkins Glen the track record for a 355 Challenge is a 2:04 something. The record for a race prepped T1 Viper is 2:09 something set by Jeff Altenburg (may be a second ro so faster since his record a few years ago), about 4 seconds slower.
At Mid Ohio Race Track Bobby Archer did a 1:38 at last years run offs about the same as Jim McCormick's 1:38 at Mid Ohio in 1998.
At Road America which is a real power track (over 3 miles long) the track record at the SCCA June Sprints set in 2001 set by Bob Shader in a Z06 T1 was 2:29. Bobby Archer (a professional Viper racer) set a 2:31 last year.
Michael Loui ran a 2:28.74 in 2001 at Road America in his 355 Challenge at the Challenge Series event.
At VIR International Racerway which has two humongous straights the fastest lap time for a 355 Challenge was set in 2001 by Phil Shearer at a 2:08 flat. Fastest time for a T1 Viper is 2:09 set at this years MARRS II race in May. Jesse Reed set a 2:09.992.
At Summit Point raceway the T1 record is a 1:18 flat for a 355 Challenge. The Viper comes in third with a 1:21.58 and the Z06 comes in second with a 1:21.31 set this year in April at SCCA Nationals.
5) The Challenge series has never opened up for any F1 races in Europe only here in the US at Montreal and Indy.
6) They (Ferrari Challenge) are not even close to professionals. The top two or three drivers in the series have possible semi professional talent but the rest of the grid (other 20 cars) absolutely *****. A bunch of 50-year-old fat guys with a Skippy license who couldn't cut it in any form or SCCA racing.
Most of these guys have trouble getting around the parking lot at the local McDonalds let alone a racetrack.
7) That's a 348, which weighs closer to 2900 pounds and doesn't look like it's going very fast at all. Listen to the engine...doesn't sound like 8500 rpms to me. Also a 348 Challenge is nothing more than a 348 streetcar with safety equipment and a beefed up suspension. Brakes are stock and engine has maybe 15 more hp.
8) Lastly.........you said no passing in the corners so I assume this is a friendly, low key, track event or drivers school. Go to any car forum and you will see the following posts nearly every day...watch my (fill in the blank...M3, Mustang, Subaru, Corvette, 325is, blah, blah, blah) pass this 100K Viper, Ferrari, Challenge car, NSX, ...etc.
Doesn't prove anything except the fact the poster is an idiot trying to boost his ego. Does anyone really think a 240 hp M3 can beat a 500+ hp Viper or 380 hp F355 at any track?
People get all caught up in what car they passed without considering what DRIVER THEY PASSED. I never ever have seen a post stating "I passed Andretti in his Viper in my lowly M3". It's the driver not the car. I have seen some Vipers and Ferraris driven so slow that I could pass them in my wife's Audi Avant Wagon on snow tires. So what???? That doesn't mean diddlysquat about my Audi.just that someone in the Ferrari was driving Ms. Daisey!
I hounded Charles Arnot's Daytona winning Ferrari 333SP's and Benny Ciaola's F40 LM's at Summit Point for few laps stuck to their tails (both cars have in excess of 600 hp). Doesn't prove a thing about my Challenge car except that I am faster than either of them. I can do a 1:19 at Summit about what they in their cars. I could crack 1:15 to 1:14 in those cars.
I have also seen Matt Karson (F Chatter also w/ 355 C) hound Benny’s 333SP at the Glen for an entire session. A 333SP should be nearly 15-20 seconds faster at the Glen than Matt's 355 C. He simply a better driver/racer.
9) Check the video link below to see two 355 Challenge cars (mine and Rich Liebhavers) pass a Viper driven by a BSR Race instructor Mike Adams so fast we nearly peel the paint off his car.
http://www.ferrarichat.com/videos/jon355c/355chase.mpg
10) The only first generation Vipers that are faster than a 355 C, are the heavily modified 550-650 hp monsters that show up at Viperdays in unlimited class. These cars are 60-70K Vipers that have another 50-70K in upgrades and are completely stripped out.
11) THE ONLY Viper that will eat a 355 Challenge is the new Viper Club Racer, which is a true race Viper, and a [******] great car. I inquired with two Dodge dealers in my area about possibly buying one of the first batch, which Dodge was selling for about $100,000. Seems the first batch of cars was already sold out by the time the car magazines featured the car (and us Ferrari owners found out about the car). Apparently Viper owners and those who run in the Viperdays club were signed up for the car before one had even been built. The next batch of cars will be sold in the 120K region and the last batch for 140K.
Dodge did their homework on this car and it's truly a great race car but for 140K you can get a 360 Challenge that will only be a tick slower at most tracks.
For 150k you can get a slightly used factory Porsche 996 GT3RS. While it only has about 420 hp it will annihilate either a 360 C or the new Viper racecar. At the Glen which is somewhat of a power track a T1 Viper does a 2:07-2:09, while a 355 C does a 2:05 and a 360 C does a 2:00 flat. A fully spec'd 996 GT3RS running in Grand Am does a 1:52. The new Viper racecar might be 7-9 seconds faster than a first generation T1 Viper but it ain't gonna be nearly 20 seconds faster.
12) Over one lap at a select track the new generation Viper might be able to stick with a 355 C. Maybe at Texas Motor Speedway or Road Atlanta. But with equal drivers over the course of several laps...NO WAY! The Viper (not talking about the club racer) is still a streetcar with street suspension and street brakes. The difference between a 355 C and a 355 streetcar in terms of handling and suspension are like night and day. The brakes on my car come off the 333SP, which in its sprint car form runs 720 hp and hits well over 200 mph at LeMans and Daytona. Those same brakes have run an entire 12-hour Sebring race with Indy car standout Max Papis beating the •••• out of them.
The suspension in a 355 Challenge is completely different than the streetcar and is a true race suspension. Unlike the 348 it's not a matter of putting in some stiffer springs. The whole suspension was ripped out of my car when we converted it to a Challenge car.
A Viper, any Viper is always going to leave a 355 (any 355) in its dust at a stop light battle. No contest there. A 355 will hit 150 mph from a dead stop in 25-27 seconds. A Viper will easily do it in 20 flat.
At the track it's a different ball game though in most cases a Viper will still beat a 355 streetcar at anything other than say Black Hawk Farms or maybe Lime Rock (both small tracks).
A 355 C is a different story and the only Viper that will be competitive and beat it is the new Viper racecar.
I seem to recall that Carol Holdfellder won several SCCA races in a 355 Challenge beating a slew of Vipers at Mid Ohio.
No trying to start a big Viper vs. Ferrari debate as both are great cars but very different. Viper is brute force with American "big block" torque thumping iron while the 355 is a high revving screaming 9000 rpm car with great handling and good tossability (not sure that's a word) through the corners.
But the facts don't lie. In T1 even at power tracks like VIR and Road America the 355 Challenge beats the T1 race Viper. Note I tried to locate lap times that were run in dry weather conditions for comparisons.
By the way, have you seen the new Viper Race car?
