thoughts on the potential super chrysler to be shown at detroit show

[pitviper]

didn't know if you all had seen it but a bit of time back, autoweek reported that Chrysler would be showing a mid engined supercar that would use a version of the 7.3 mercedes V12 (similar to that used in the amazing pagani zonda)...what does this say about their commitment to the viper? or their racing plans? specifically LeMans...which is where a factory Viper programme should be happening. perhaps they want the viper to represent all that is brash and in your face american, while chrysler would showcase the "refinement" and "techy" part of things, especially with their close ties to the silver star marquee...january could be interesting...

pit

 

[GTS Bruce]

The Viper is real.Everything else is window dressing and show hype. Bruce

 

[SNKEBIT]

YUP!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Jay Herbert]

The funny thing is that a mid-engine Gen III was one of those considered. It was nixed because it could not be brought in for under a "super car" price. The rumors I heard was that a Gen III mid-engined Viper would have needed to be 150K.

Funny thing is how close they where.... look at what the GT said it was going to cost when first talked about "around 100K", then it was "less than 130K", then "less than 150K", now its "est. 150K" in all the mag articles.

If DCX could made a V-12 GT stomper for 150K, would y'all want one? A Viper cost's 90K, and the GT is not much faster for 150K, so would a 150K Chrysler run with a 300-400K Saleen S-7? don't see why not.

Personally, I'd rather see a Mid-engined V-10 powered Viper. Turn Viper into a brand. front engined convertible and coupe's and midengined lightweight "Supercar Viper". Why put a mercedes V-12 into a Chrysler.... when our faithful V-10 in a light weight mid-engined Viper could stomp the world.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[Torquemonster]

The American auto industry generally, but Chrysler in particular has not had the round dangly bits to take on the best of Europe at their own game and look them in the eye. They've been big, fat and arrogant and the world has passed them and they've never caught up, and now can't because they are owned.

They're stuck in the rut of "Dodge is for masses and Mercs are for those who want the best" because the owners want it that way.

Now they're merged we have the irony of the WW2 losers eventually selling Americans "their" top shelf engines, and developing their cars.... even now the Crossfire is mostly German tech.

I've been a Mopar fan for many years and even run a business specializing in them - but there's more integrity in an Indian Fruit Fly than in some of the divisions of DC I've witnessed over the years. And I thought that was a Ford problem, but alas - it's a Chrysler problem and it has not been addressed.

Look at the way they treat people - even their own racing sponsorships get pulled because of some fat 'crat's whim. People can't trust them. The seeds of destruction are sown and the redemption will come from Germany...on German terms - but the tragedy is that the American once giant could have done something stunning and special.

With the integrity to match a bigger vision Chrysler could have been amazing. I find it hard to be optomistic by what I see happening - I only hope I'm wrong and I certainly applaud the efforts of those that enable the Viper to live on, lets hope it survives as an American icon.

or does everyone want a German V12 instead?

There's nothing wrong with 2 supercar icons in the group stable - it dilutes the competition - there's certainly precedent - each marque offering something a different market segment wants most.

 

[Viperfreak2]

Most people don't care if it's German, US, or Japanese. Best product gets the business. I just wish DC would split The D and the C and let the Dodge guys make the big decisions again. The people in Stuttgart really do think different, just not DODGE different.

 

[joe117]

"more integrity in an Indian Fruit Fly"
I like that, southern hemisphere humor. ;-)

Anyway, I think the $150k price someone mentioned would be a low end number. That Mercedes V12 engine probably costs as much as a STR-10 Viper.
Heck, the cars that come with that V12 now probably cost near $150k.

Cars selling for that kind of money are a little too expensive to be of much interest to me. I'm sure there are lots of guys on the board that would and could buy a couple of them if they wanted/

I just wonder how much interest there would be in a car like that made by Dodge. It would need to be quite a bit more sophisticated than a Viper before it would interest many buyers. I don't think Dodge could produce anything as high tech as that for $150k if at all.

 

[Torquemonster]

I'd agree Joe - but because of the big company overhead and political environment.

I firmly believe given a fair budget and a free hand I could run a business to produce tested prototypes ready for production and have a marketing and production strategy in place that would both make a profit and allow excellent group leverage off the PR/wow factor that resulted. It's all about doing the sums and prep work right then controlling the project.

If I could do that - there'd be many more that could also do that. The only way for this type of project is to use small botique firms - contract it out where the small scale craftsmanship and expertise is, using the big company resources only where needed and useful.

A small firm could project manage and control this with ease with the backing and support of DC.... but there are few precedents - too many egos tend to get in the way.

Most of the development work is already done - the rest is not that hard.

BTW - The finest road supercar ever built was built by a private firm called Maclaren, not any of the big car makers.

 

[CHAD]

Enzo? Again, not that large a company but a good size.

Chad

 

[Viperfreak2]

I don't think the companies volume has much to do with good design or horsepower. Mercedes makes a lot of AMG's. Ferrari builds twice the volume of Viper production. To be the best takes only three things: Money, design/engineering talent, and most important, will.

 

[Steve Ferguson]

How about a mid-engine Viper with a Hemi V-10???

I will be at the show and will get a note on what is going on as soon as I can. Stay Tuned.

 

[Casey]

How about a mid-engine Viper with a Hemi V-10???

Ummm, OK!! You've got to give us more info than that? It's a Coupe, right!!

 

[Andrew2KRT10]

I read how the GT-40 '05 model just sold at aution for half a mil. It was the # 10 car. The first 9 were reserved by Ford.
The MSRP will be 150. It was an article in a Mustang Magazine.

I think the '03 Viper turned out better than everyone was complaining about two years ago, but I also think that it will get passed by real quick, by correctly priced competition if Dodge is not careful.

AC

 

[ViperGTS]

>...Chrysler ME Four-Twelve
#356596 - 12/27/03 10:48 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply

In the local (Bavarian) newspaper today: ...during the Detroit Auto Show DC is showing the "ME Four-Twelve" with 850 hp, less than 3 seconds for 0-100 kph, high speed > 400 kph.....<<<

http://vca2.viperclub.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB17&Number=356596&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

 

[Steve Ferguson]

Casey I have long stated that I would much rather see Dodge create a Super Car than another Coupe. Maybe that is what they are going to show? I REALLY do not know, but I will be there and can report back as to what comes out on stage. We will know by this time next week.

 

[MoparMan]

From what I've heard this car was co-developed with Mercedes so there's no telling how much of a Mopar it'll really be anyway...

 

[Torquemonster]

Give me 4 valve heads over a hemi any day of the week. The hemi head no longer rules in any naturally aspirated racing - 4 valve heads dominate where allowed and where not allowed - it is wedge heads that are sometimes called hemi just because they angle the plug in close to center.

The hemi is old tech and good for PR not record setting. Wedge head and 4V head technology is better and more efficient.

The pure hemi head can flow air but not fast enough to beat a high tech wedge. Watch that in Pro Stock on ESPN on any race day. Even the latest hemi heads are more wedge than hemi now to stay competitive. Sorry if that bursts anyones bubble, it's taken 30 years - but the hemi is no longer king and DC should look to the future not the past for glory.

Hemi is muscle car, 4V is supercar - and supercar will spank muscle car cube for cube spec for spec - in every way at every rpm and on less fuel.

Bring on a 40V Viper! No need for quad cams - too much extra bulk and complexity for little gain - the 4V heads are where the efficiency comes and could use stock located cam.

 

[Snakester]

First off, the Viper has always been a mid-engined car. Front-mid-engined to be sure, but it always had the bulk of the chassis weight between the wheels.

The $300K Lamborghini Murcielago is easily a poster car for an Italian exotic car. And the SRT-10 (convertible) Viper has comparable acceleration and better braking and handling.

So tell me why it's so important to have a rear-mid engine location, DOHC, 4V engine?

Personally I'm never going to be spending $300K+ for any car.

I don't like much of Chrysler's design changes since the Daimler merger, building more boring cars than before, and just reselling the Mercedes SLK roadster as the Crossfire is hardly promoting the innovative Chrysler spirit that inspired the Viper.

When I read the title of this thread I thought that it was talking about the 625HP, 3250lb SRT-10 "Carbon" Viper shown at SEMA. Building that car for under $100K would definitely get the attention of the world.

If Daimler was really serious about keeping the Viper a flagship car, they would lend a couple turbos and some traction control circuitry from their Mercedes cars to build a twin turbo 750HP Viper that would put the Viper up among the fastest new breed of exotic supercars like the Ferrari Enzo and Porsche Carrera GT.

Give us a sub-$100k/625HP regular Viper, and a $125K 750HP+ factory supercar ACR Viper.

The Europeans are going to have to reevaluate American performance cars, from the Ford GT, to the coming 500HP, 3000lb C6 Z06 Corvette (plus maybe a lighter 625HP ZL1 model), and Dodge needs the Viper to either be as fast or faster to keep it's performance image alive.

-Dean.

 

[Casey]

Steve, I am anxious to hear about this Viper at Detroit! I would love to see a Viper Super Car, and with the Carbon Viper and the one coming up in Detroit, it doesn't seem to far off.
After seeing the GTS-R a few years ago, I can't stop thinking of that car with 750+ HP! I too am more interested in a Super Viper, than just a Coupe, but can't we have both??

 

[Torquemonster]

I agree that with 500 cubic inches quad cams are not necessary - but I think an OHV with 4V heads would still be real American Muscle and would be innovative like the original Hemi was. It would also be a lot lighter and smaller than a quad cam engine with lower CG.

A dry sumped Viper with carbon panels, front engine, 10 throttle bodies street tuned, and 40V heads would make an ultimate muscle/supercar all in one for under $150k. Imagine similar power to now from 1500 to 3000rpm then it steps up in a big way all the way to 7000+ plus you could change plugs so much easier

Adding a nice big pair of twin turbos would require VERY low boost to keep it under 1000hp.

 

[Hisserman]

The Detroit News reports today that DC is showing a $350,000 626 horsepower "rocket" Mercedes-Benz called the SLR McLaren at the Detroit Auto Show.

 

[VPRVENM97]

The Detroit News reports today that DC is showing a $350,000 626 horsepower "rocket" Mercedes-Benz called the SLR McLaren at the Detroit Auto Show.

So this is it? For 400-450K I'd rather have my 97GTS,a couple of comp coupes and a Ford GT.

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[Hisserman]

Ugh!! The front end of that Mercedes looks like someone sat on it! I'll just keep my GTS and buy gas with the rest of the money!

 

[SylvanSRT]

Yeah buy gas forever and then some w/ the difference. The SLR does not look as good as the concept, looking at the two together the production version does't not work for me. The SLR roadster they showed(concept was great). Between the changes and the auto-box, lack of STELLAR performance, I just don't get it. The performance in only slightly better than the SRT what the hell is the other 300k for, so you dont see another one?

 

[GTS Jeff]

more on the car here under the NAIAS 2004 link

http://media.daimlerchrysler.com/gms_frame

 

[SylvanSRT]

V-10 power?

 

[Steve Ferguson]

It is a Chrysler.

It has a MB V12 with 4 Turbos.

It will be expensive.

It will only be made if it is the fastest car EVER. And with the projectios it will be faster than Enzo and the F1.

There is a spec disk in the press kit. Once I can figure out how to get that info on here I will. It will be at least Wed since I did not bring a disk drive with me.

 

[SylvanSRT]

At the SRT introduction they did say that it had an "initial output" of 500 HP. Keyword initial this motor is still not stressed at this output the morpar cam and exhaust engine controller speed parts(a few thousand bucks plus install) add 40-50 hp right there. and who knows all the other power enhancements soon to be available for the SRT, turbos, Supercharger(cant wait), heads &intakes. Some of those already done or indevelopment
these cars should easily be capable of 600-? knows what kind of hp. Like always the Viper can hang w/ the big dogs. And how often do you see these guys out there in these super expensive cars on the track having fun?? Not too often, usually a trophy to park in front of the country club or to shine and stare at on a garage! A lot of Viper owners use these cars to at or near the limits in racing, track days, drivers schools and others, possibly more than any other group of owners i can think of.