Viper in Fatal Crash

Viperfreak2

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I'm not for high tech stuff in the Viper, but I think the IBM biometrics thing would work in cars of this performance (danger) level. These cars aren't usually loaned out or borrowed like a sedan/minivan, so having to 'swipe' an authorized finger makes sense. Either that or the old fashioned vette idea of a key for low and full power modes. You can't give kids access to power like this. In the wrong hands, it's worse than drugs....
 

Warfang

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I'm not for high tech stuff in the Viper, but I think the IBM biometrics thing would work in cars of this performance (danger) level. These cars aren't usually loaned out or borrowed like a sedan/minivan, so having to 'swipe' an authorized finger makes sense. Either that or the old fashioned vette idea of a key for low and full power modes. You can't give kids access to power like this. In the wrong hands, it's worse than drugs....

You can't save the stupid from themselves... it's just too bad sometimes their stupidity affects others.
 
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vegas guy

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Does anyone know the statistics on how many Vipers are wrecked in the first 30 days of ownership? I recently had mine at a local dealership being serviced and the manager of the store was telling me the percentage of Vipers wrecked in the first 30 days. My insurance agent was also quoting some percentage numbers. These numbers being quoted were between 20% to 30%. Are these correct? Does anyone have the real number?

On a personal note: I have to admit that if it wasn't for this board I most likely would have been one of those 20% to 30%. After reading all the posts about power,torque,cold tires,etc.etc,etc, I treated my new Viper with respect. Being an old Hot Rod guy my motto was: stuff your foot into it. After reading Fred "driving school" Kinder's many post's about taking a driving course I signed my wife and I up for all the Skip Barber class's. After the first day it became apparent just how little I knew about driving the Viper.
 

AG98RT10

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Certainly higher percentage of Vipers are wrecked than other high performance cars. How many people have to die in Vipers before DC takes the long-overdue step of equipping them with (defeatable for expert drivers) traction control and active handling? Maybe that wouldn't have stopped this fatality, but maybe it would, too.
 
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A very tragic accident! With a fatality to make it even more tragic.

Sympathy to the victims family and friends.

Some of the comments are best for bar room conversation.

"Certainly higher percentage of Vipers are wrecked than other high performance cars. How many people have to die in Vipers before DC takes the long-overdue step of equipping them with (defeatable for expert drivers) traction control and active handling? Maybe that wouldn't have stopped this fatality, but maybe it would, too. "

Please share the data that supports this statement!

This was an unfortunate accident caused by ?, speculation is reckless driving.

Keep the electronic Nanny out of the Viper conversations. Want a Nanny? buy another car.

Personal responsibility seems to fly away during these tragic events. We all make mistakes and do things we should not. Some of us pay dearly for them.

Want to reduce accidents, provide a Performance driving schools experience to all who drive.
 

DodgeViper01

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Certainly higher percentage of Vipers are wrecked than other high performance cars. How many people have to die in Vipers before DC takes the long-overdue step of equipping them with (defeatable for expert drivers) traction control and active handling? Maybe that wouldn't have stopped this fatality, but maybe it would, too.

I was thinking the same thing. Before I even read this I would always talk to my brother and we just did not understand why DC did not introduce traction control, side airbags, stability control, REAL roll bars, and other safety equipment.
 

Warfang

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Certainly higher percentage of Vipers are wrecked than other high performance cars. How many people have to die in Vipers before DC takes the long-overdue step of equipping them with (defeatable for expert drivers) traction control and active handling? Maybe that wouldn't have stopped this fatality, but maybe it would, too.

I was thinking the same thing. Before I even read this I would always talk to my brother and we just did not understand why DC did not introduce traction control, side airbags, stability control, REAL roll bars, and other safety equipment.

Working roll bars, I agree with completely. Side airbags would be nice, but everything else is just nonsense. If you can't drive worth a damn, don't get a viper. If you get one anyways and don't take performance driving classes and then die wrecking it... then tough **** for you.

We might as well limit to 150HP and variable speed regulators that works by checking with a satellite system according to weather conditions: Clear day=75MPH max, Rain= 60MPH max.

Oh yeah, there should also be a blood intake meter.... if your blood reads alcohol or drugs, it wont start. The list can go on and on. Heck we need ALL these things if not more to stay safe 100% of the time. Maybe SRT can beat GM to the punch. Take THAT corvette! :rolleyes:
 

AG98RT10

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A very tragic accident! With a fatality to make it even more tragic.

Sympathy to the victims family and friends.

Some of the comments are best for bar room conversation.

"Certainly higher percentage of Vipers are wrecked than other high performance cars. How many people have to die in Vipers before DC takes the long-overdue step of equipping them with (defeatable for expert drivers) traction control and active handling? Maybe that wouldn't have stopped this fatality, but maybe it would, too. "

Please share the data that supports this statement!

This was an unfortunate accident caused by ?, speculation is reckless driving.

Keep the electronic Nanny out of the Viper conversations. Want a Nanny? buy another car.

Personal responsibility seems to fly away during these tragic events. We all make mistakes and do things we should not. Some of us pay dearly for them.

Want to reduce accidents, provide a Performance driving schools experience to all who drive.

Sorry, but these cars are street cars, not race cars - they lack the required safety equipment, for one thing, to be "race cars." They are sold as street cars, and, as such, they should be controllable by the average automobile enthusiast. Corvette and Mercedes, BMW, Lambo, Porsche - all use some form of safety net for the enthusiast drivers who purchase their street machines.

Putting traction/handling controls on the most tail-happy, torque-laden, street monster ever marketed only makes sense. It won't stop every fool from killing themselves; it will help prevent someone with just enough experience driving fast cars to get himself in trouble with a Viper from paying the ultimate price for crossing a line he didn't even know was there! (I know, because I've crossed it myself - as have probably most Viper drivers - and fortunately, lived to tell about it. I've since been to track events, had semi-professional instruction, and IMHO the car still NEEDS traction/handling controls.)

So don't try to play up the angle that all people need is "driving school" and they're suddenly miraculously transformed into the safest drivers on four wheels. It helps but it's no panacea. Talk to John Lingenfelter's family, or the survivors of the two people who rode that Carrera GT into the wall last year about how safe track days and racing events are. People who choose to engage in risky behaviors should do so with plenty of foreknowledge of what they are doing, not find out that what was perfectly safe 1/10 of a G ago, has just crossed an "invisible" line, and your life and property may be forfeit.

If DC had installed prudent (again, defeatable) traction/handling systems on Vipers since they were available widely (Gen II, anyway), there would be Viper drivers alive today and many, many totaled Vipers would still be on the road. Racing amateurs could still pursue their passion with defeatable controls. Everyone wins. It's just common sense but if you want data, I'm sure the insurance industry has it.
 

DodgeViper01

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Side airbags would be nice, but everything else is just nonsense. If you can't drive worth a damn, don't get a viper. If you get one anyways and don't take performance driving classes and then die wrecking it... then tough **** for you.

We might as well limit to 150HP and variable speed regulators that works by checking with a satellite system according to weather conditions: Clear day=75MPH max, Rain= 60MPH max.

Oh yeah, there should also be a blood intake meter.... if your blood reads alcohol or drugs, it wont start. The list can go on and on. Heck we need ALL these things if not more to stay safe 100% of the time. Maybe SRT can beat GM to the punch. Take THAT corvette! :rolleyes:

Then saving a life is nonsense? No matter how good the driver is, they can all have slip ups. No one is perfect.
 
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When did this accident become the cars fault??? when it was driven by an incompetent, drunk or reckless driver.....?? just how many nannies/airbags/diapers/bibs do YOU need to make yourself a competent driver???
 

kwiksilver

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Warfang and Nobody are right on the money!! If you want all that tech crap buy a cheby. My last two cars had "over" active control and traction control and i hated that part of driving them. If I do something stupid, I pay the price. They still sell guns, alcohol and tobacco don't they?
 
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Driving can be hazardous to your health that is a given. And a driving school will not prevent all accidents. And an electronic Nanny will not prevent all accidents. I think most will be in Agreement.

Saving life is very important! That is exactly why I encourage Performance Driving Schools, no matter what you drive. It is very simple the driver controls his right foot and the steering wheel.

The electronic Nanny may give the illusion of a safety net, but a driver gets into trouble when they do not understand or ignore basic laws of physics(vehicle dynamics), common sense, as well as traffic laws.

Waiting for the source of statics to support the statement "Certainly higher percentage of Vipers are wrecked than other high performance cars"? I heard the sky was falling.

Hate to see accidents period. But a fatal crash in a Viper is a family matter, as we are related by our love for the car and very saddened by the lose of one of our children.
 

DEVILDOG

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A very tragic accident! With a fatality to make it even more tragic.

Sympathy to the victims family and friends.

Some of the comments are best for bar room conversation.

"Certainly higher percentage of Vipers are wrecked than other high performance cars. How many people have to die in Vipers before DC takes the long-overdue step of equipping them with (defeatable for expert drivers) traction control and active handling? Maybe that wouldn't have stopped this fatality, but maybe it would, too. "

Please share the data that supports this statement!

This was an unfortunate accident caused by ?, speculation is reckless driving.

Keep the electronic Nanny out of the Viper conversations. Want a Nanny? buy another car.

Personal responsibility seems to fly away during these tragic events. We all make mistakes and do things we should not. Some of us pay dearly for them.

Want to reduce accidents, provide a Performance driving schools experience to all who drive.

Sorry, but these cars are street cars, not race cars - they lack the required safety equipment, for one thing, to be "race cars." They are sold as street cars, and, as such, they should be controllable by the average automobile enthusiast. Corvette and Mercedes, BMW, Lambo, Porsche - all use some form of safety net for the enthusiast drivers who purchase their street machines.

Putting traction/handling controls on the most tail-happy, torque-laden, street monster ever marketed only makes sense. It won't stop every fool from killing themselves; it will help prevent someone with just enough experience driving fast cars to get himself in trouble with a Viper from paying the ultimate price for crossing a line he didn't even know was there! (I know, because I've crossed it myself - as have probably most Viper drivers - and fortunately, lived to tell about it. I've since been to track events, had semi-professional instruction, and IMHO the car still NEEDS traction/handling controls.)

So don't try to play up the angle that all people need is "driving school" and they're suddenly miraculously transformed into the safest drivers on four wheels. It helps but it's no panacea. Talk to John Lingenfelter's family, or the survivors of the two people who rode that Carrera GT into the wall last year about how safe track days and racing events are. People who choose to engage in risky behaviors should do so with plenty of foreknowledge of what they are doing, not find out that what was perfectly safe 1/10 of a G ago, has just crossed an "invisible" line, and your life and property may be forfeit.

If DC had installed prudent (again, defeatable) traction/handling systems on Vipers since they were available widely (Gen II, anyway), there would be Viper drivers alive today and many, many totaled Vipers would still be on the road. Racing amateurs could still pursue their passion with defeatable controls. Everyone wins. It's just common sense but if you want data, I'm sure the insurance industry has it.

You said it yourself...there are plenty of performance cars with all the safety nannies for people to buy. A VIPER does not have these thank God because it's a VIPER. If you can't handle a VIPER then don't buy one or drive one. If you're a father that owns one don't let your young, inexperienced son drive one. Be a FATHER...not a best buddy! I have a 17 year old son and he has not and will not get to drive it until he is at least 25 and I'll be in it too. You can't build a car that will save everyone from themself. Stupid is as stupid does....that's all I have to say about that! :D
 

AG98RT10

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People are dying. Put away the macho "if you can't handle the car, don't buy it" crappola long enough to realize that.

You give up nothing with "defeatable" safety controls. All the other manufacturers have them. Time to get with the 21st century here...
 

DEVILDOG

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Yeah...people die everyday. Take personal responsibility for your actions. Quit expecting someone else to do everything for you. It's got nothing to do with macho...it's about brains. I quess you're too stupid to figure that out. Why not just put 75 mph speed limiters on all cars with radar, sonar, and proximity alarms or better yet have our cars driven by robots then we can ride along singing *** bye ya all day long! It won't help...STUPID people will find a way to kill themselves or others no matter how many controls you put on a car or anything else. The more you take personal responsibility out of the equation the worse things will be. The more we don't have to use our brains the STUPIDER the human race will become. :D
 

AG98RT10

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Yeah...people die everyday. Take personal responsibility for your actions. Quit expecting someone else to do everything for you. It's got nothing to do with macho...it's about brains. I quess you're too stupid to figure that out. Why not just put 75 mph speed limiters on all cars with radar, sonar, and proximity alarms or better yet have our cars driven by robots then we can ride along singing *** bye ya all day long! It won't help...STUPID people will find a way to kill themselves or others no matter how many controls you put on a car or anything else. The more you take personal responsibility out of the equation the worse things will be. The more we don't have to use our brains the STUPIDER the human race will become. :D

well, obviously I disagree...

The technology exists to make vehicles much safer while preserving every bit of their "fun" aspect. You used the word STUPID a lot. Maybe you should look in the mirror, Forrest. Unneeded fatalities is an extreme price to pay for testosterone delusions...
 

DEVILDOG

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Yeah...people die everyday. Take personal responsibility for your actions. Quit expecting someone else to do everything for you. It's got nothing to do with macho...it's about brains. I quess you're too stupid to figure that out. Why not just put 75 mph speed limiters on all cars with radar, sonar, and proximity alarms or better yet have our cars driven by robots then we can ride along singing *** bye ya all day long! It won't help...STUPID people will find a way to kill themselves or others no matter how many controls you put on a car or anything else. The more you take personal responsibility out of the equation the worse things will be. The more we don't have to use our brains the STUPIDER the human race will become. :D

well, obviously I disagree...

The technology exists to make vehicles much safer while preserving every bit of their "fun" aspect. You used the word STUPID a lot. Maybe you should look in the mirror, Forrest. Unneeded fatalities is an extreme price to pay for testosterone delusions...

Let's see...testosterone delusions...using your brain and taking responsibility for your own actions instead of depending on everyone else to do it for you. That's just STUPID!
 

GR8_ASP

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I can see there are several perspectives inidicated here. But it may not be our decision in the end. How many think it will be more than 5 years before some form of handling control is mandated by the government? If not 5 then maybe 10 years at the most.

One thing I cannot understand is how a system that adds effectively no weight to the car, but adds to the safety and control in most situations, while being completely defeatable by those who do not wish to use it can be hated by some so much.

Why not ask that the car be carburated, distributor ignition, hey even drum brakes and bias ply tires. Then it will really be a drivers and mechanics car. ABS and power brakes, power steering too. They are only for weaklings anyway.

Face it technology advances the state of all cars, especially those that are considered high performance. Do you think that if ABS, traction control, stability control, etc were readily available back in the early 60's that the Cobra would have avoided them. Just to make it difficult to drive so it could be considered a he man car. No. Shelby would have employed anything to make it the top dog. Why not make a car that makes the average driver very fast. I cannot think of a good reason.

I think some of you guys would want the space shuttle to be operated by a bunch of scientists with slide rulers because a computer gives them too much advantage. We are living in 2006 not 1960. Technology is upon us. Let's use it to our greatest advantage.
 

AG98RT10

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One thing I cannot understand is how a system that adds effectively no weight to the car, but adds to the safety and control in most situations, while being completely defeatable by those who do not wish to use it can be hated by some so much.

GR8 Post! :cool:

I really think a lot of it a perception that these cars are somehow "Old School" and that is part of their charm with a lot of people. Then again, there are some knuckle draggers in here too. :D
 

eagles

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My heart goes out to all those involved.

We do not have enough information to draw any concrete conclusions re the cause. Unless there was a mechanical problem or another vehicle or animal which caused the accident it was probably human error.

It is our responsibility as a driver before we hop into any [especially hi-performance] vehicle to know and respect its limitations and more importantly to know and stay within our own limitations. We owe it to ourselves and our passenger as well as our loved ones to drive safely and responsibly.

Cars don't cause accidents, drivers do. I know, as when I was much younger I caused a couple but I was lucky and I learned from the experience.

Don't be a co-dependant to poor or foolish drivers.

eagles
 

Warfang

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People are dying. Put away the macho "if you can't handle the car, don't buy it" crappola long enough to realize that.

You give up nothing with "defeatable" safety controls. All the other manufacturers have them. Time to get with the 21st century here...

1. You give up money paying more for devices you don't need.
2. You give up simplicity to an already complex machine.
3. You give up the fear necessary to respect the power the Viper has.
4. You give up the opportunity to better your driving abilities (assuming a novice wouldn't turn off tc).
5. You give up the reputation the Viper has as a bad@$$ race car for the street.

What's so macho about "if you can't handle the car, don't buy it"? Sounds like just plain old common sense considering there is such a huge selection of sportscars out there. If you're a novice skier, do you go down the triple diamond suicide runs? Or should we flatten the mountain so the pansies can get the same view from the other side of the mountain? To quote Dirty Harry, "A man's gotta know his limitations."

Besides, macho is better than pansy in my book. If you want to be breastfed by a car, get a vette or a porsche, or any other car willing to baby you. If all you care about is the "look" of a Viper, get some body kits fabbed over a vette. :rolleyes:
 

lankhoss

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So, Warfang.....you think the driver of that car is a "mansy" corpse now? That's about the worst logic I've ever read in my life.

Unfortunately, a lot of people have more money than brains. A lot of people who have the money to buy a Viper, or Lamborghini, or any other exotic car....don't have the "car sense" that a lot of other enthusiasts do. TC isn't such a horrible thing, it allows you to learn using your car. It has been very cold since I bought my car, and I have kept traction control on the entire time. I've spun and slid the car a couple of times already. I'd rather be called a "[******]" than end up like the guy in this story. Once the temperature warms up, I'll turn the T/C off and get a better feel for my car. This is the 3rd Vette I've driven, and it's got FAR more horsepower than any other I've had. That doesn't mean I "deserve" to wreck it.
 

DodgeViper01

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I can see there are several perspectives inidicated here. But it may not be our decision in the end. How many think it will be more than 5 years before some form of handling control is mandated by the government? If not 5 then maybe 10 years at the most.

One thing I cannot understand is how a system that adds effectively no weight to the car, but adds to the safety and control in most situations, while being completely defeatable by those who do not wish to use it can be hated by some so much.

Why not ask that the car be carburated, distributor ignition, hey even drum brakes and bias ply tires. Then it will really be a drivers and mechanics car. ABS and power brakes, power steering too. They are only for weaklings anyway.

Face it technology advances the state of all cars, especially those that are considered high performance. Do you think that if ABS, traction control, stability control, etc were readily available back in the early 60's that the Cobra would have avoided them. Just to make it difficult to drive so it could be considered a he man car. No. Shelby would have employed anything to make it the top dog. Why not make a car that makes the average driver very fast. I cannot think of a good reason.

I think some of you guys would want the space shuttle to be operated by a bunch of scientists with slide rulers because a computer gives them too much advantage. We are living in 2006 not 1960. Technology is upon us. Let's use it to our greatest advantage.

Great post.
 

DodgeViper01

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So, Warfang.....you think the driver of that car is a "mansy" corpse now? That's about the worst logic I've ever read in my life.

Unfortunately, a lot of people have more money than brains. A lot of people who have the money to buy a Viper, or Lamborghini, or any other exotic car....don't have the "car sense" that a lot of other enthusiasts do. TC isn't such a horrible thing, it allows you to learn using your car. It has been very cold since I bought my car, and I have kept traction control on the entire time. I've spun and slid the car a couple of times already. I'd rather be called a "[******]" than end up like the guy in this story. Once the temperature warms up, I'll turn the T/C off and get a better feel for my car. This is the 3rd Vette I've driven, and it's got FAR more horsepower than any other I've had. That doesn't mean I "deserve" to wreck it.

You are very right!
 

DodgeViper01

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People are dying. Put away the macho "if you can't handle the car, don't buy it" crappola long enough to realize that.

You give up nothing with "defeatable" safety controls. All the other manufacturers have them. Time to get with the 21st century here...

Exactly. It is just time for the Viper to have these safety controls too.
 
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Give up the excuses and take responsability for your right foot, hands and brain!

If you can not control these three variables, then stick with a vehicle that has a Nanny offering you a false sense of security!
 

WILDASP

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Ok,guys,let me put in my two cents' worth here.Real roll bars would be a great idea,and could have been provided by DC without too much extra cost-from the description of this crash,it probably wouldn't have mattered in this incident,but it might in others.Active handling and traction control I'm not sure about;it does provide a bit of a safety net for novice drivers,but can also be an inducer of false confidence.I do think it has some utility as a learning tool,if it is not too aggressive in assisting the driver;the system in the Vette,at least in comp mode works fairly well in this respect-when you feel it engage or see the indicator flash,it might be a good idea not to repeat whatever you just did.That said,since the new Z06came out,there have been several single car crashes reported in which A/H was engaged-it does appear that some drivers get the mistaken idea that the nannies will save them from major mistakes,which they won't.In one case,the driver got a little loose in a low speed corner and panic braked,which turned him right off the inside of the curve and into a ditch.He was rather upset that the A/H didn't bail him out!Apparently he had no understanding of the basics.One driving school experience would probably have prevented that one.

I can see both points of view on this one,but all the electronic aids in the known universe cannot save someone from a reckless lack of judgement and common sense.Personally,knowing I'm on my own to control a Viper makes me a lot more careful to stay within my personal limits,especially in poor traction conditions.Regardless, 500+ hp demands respect from the driver in any car,IMHO,
electronic nannies or not.

As to young drivers and Vipers,I personally would not put 99.9% of drivers under 25 in one,even with me in the car with them.The exceptions would be the rare few with racing school and considerable competitive experience in something with at least 400hp.Even then,they would need to be in a controlled(track or autocross) environment.I'm working with a 20year-old right now who is showing real promise in autocross-very precise,very smooth,good instincts(and reflexes like I wish I still had) with a 300hp car.He doesn't feel ready to try the Viper just yet-I think that speaks well for his judgement.Once he gets some real professional instruction,we shall see-but only on a closed course at lower speeds until he has considerable seat time in the car.

BTW,my impression of the new Vette is that it can get away from you just as easily as a Viper,and that comes after considerable seat time in my C6Z06.The Vette and the Viper have very different personalities,but at 70% or better,both demand the utmost respect.
 

Warfang

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So, Warfang.....you think the driver of that car is a "mansy" corpse now? That's about the worst logic I've ever read in my life.

Unfortunately, a lot of people have more money than brains. A lot of people who have the money to buy a Viper, or Lamborghini, or any other exotic car....don't have the "car sense" that a lot of other enthusiasts do. TC isn't such a horrible thing, it allows you to learn using your car. It has been very cold since I bought my car, and I have kept traction control on the entire time. I've spun and slid the car a couple of times already. I'd rather be called a "[******]" than end up like the guy in this story. Once the temperature warms up, I'll turn the T/C off and get a better feel for my car. This is the 3rd Vette I've driven, and it's got FAR more horsepower than any other I've had. That doesn't mean I "deserve" to wreck it.

Obviously, you can't counter any of my logical points, so you use a straw man argument and try to claim I called the driver a mansy. That's pretty pathetic.

The driver of the car was careless from eyewitness accounts of him speeding and weaving recklessly around the time while it was raining. No tc would have helped. tc does NOT defy physics. You even admit your vette slips and slides WITH tc on... imagine in traffic doing 80mph under the same slippery condition and tell me your precious tc will save ur @$$? Good luck with that.

Well, looks like you're the perfect candidate for a vette. Congrats! Plenty of people drive Vipers without tc in rain and snow, and they take enough care not to lose control. The ones that do, accept the fact that accidents happen, and don't go blaming the car. If you're not certain of your driving capabilities, don't go speeding and weaving in traffic, and don't drive the viper in bad weather. THAT'S one of the reasons why so many members here store their Vipers away during the winter. There's no guarantee you will be 100% protected from everything. That's why you have insurance. Understand vehicle dynamics, and your chances at avoiding an accident is infinitely better than if you JUST had tc, albiet it wouldn't hurt for a novice to have both. Those people deserve a vette... like you. :rolleyes:

That said, there's a good chance DC will cave to the pansies and their lawyers and add all the nannytech sooner or later. Then it will be time to look for another car... but still keeping my beautiful gts without the tc. :p
 

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