Zeroshift: synchroless T-56, "Fastest shifting transmission"

MelloYellow

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Zeroshift: synchroless T-56, \"Fastest shifting transmission\"

Hopefully not a dupe post.
Expensive, but interesting.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=872070

Modified T-56 with no synchros. Shifts in "zero" milliseconds. Once moving, using the clutch is not required. Kits for T-5 and T-56 are mentioned.

See the "Flatliner" info on how they state it shifts instantly without blowing up. They also state less shock and longer life than standard transmission.

http://www.zeroshift.com/
 

1TONY1

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56, \"Fastest shifting transmission\"

Hopefully not a dupe post.
Expensive, but interesting.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=872070

Modified T-56 with no synchros. Shifts in "zero" milliseconds. Once moving, using the clutch is not required. Kits for T-5 and T-56 are mentioned.

See the "Flatliner" info on how they state it shifts instantly without blowing up. They also state less shock and longer life than standard transmission.

http://www.zeroshift.com/

Zero milliseconds.....ah, no.
 

JGK95

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56, \"Fastest shifting transmission\"

Quick read too! If this has more press and exposure and WORKS! It might be the next best thing.

Curious,

Jay K.
 

BigCarrot

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56, \"Fastest shifting transmission\"

That would be remarkable if it actually works!
 

SingleMalt

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56, \"Fastest shifting transmission\"

Sure would... But with quotables like this, I'd have to doubt their honesty:

"A 1.4 litre ZeroShift car would outperform a 1.6 manual and be as smooth as the 2.0 automatic (which it would also outperform!)"

I mean, COME ON -- how can anyone generalize like that.

That would be remarkable if it actually works!
 

JDR

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56, \"Fastest shifting transmission\"

Found the patent:

It uses ROLLER BEARING CLUTCHES instead of Syncros...

I wonder how that will hold up under some real horsepower?

(I'll post the drawings when I get to work tomorrow.)
 

Vic

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56, \"Fastest shifting transmission\"

I take it both gear sets (say, during an upshift from 1 to 2) are engaged at the same time, and the clutches allow the second gear to overdrive the first gear. In that way, there is no gap in applied torque. Thats how they can say "Zero" time required to shift. Just a guess.
 

1TONY1

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56, \"Fastest shifting transmission\"

Found the patent:

It uses ROLLER BEARING CLUTCHES instead of Syncros...

I wonder how that will hold up under some real horsepower?

(I'll post the drawings when I get to work tomorrow.)

They are probably talking about using sprags like it an automatic. They can be durable.
 

jrkermode

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56, \"Fastest shifting transmission\"

Racecar Engineering Magazine had a brief article on Zeroshift several months ago. According to the article, it's the real deal. But, I was still skeptical, so I contacted the Magazine's editor. He understood my skepticism but assured me it was the real deal. Racecar Engineering will have a follow-up article, in great detail, in a future issue.
 

FE 065

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56, \"Fastest shifting transmission\"

This one's a little cheaper:

Dodge Viper rear wheel drive gearbox

You must be registered for see images




6 speed, with sequential gear selection
Dog engagement, straight cut gears
Wide gears and larger bearings for additional strength
Quaife bellhousing for direct fitment
Various ratios available

From England CLICK and Page Down to Viper



Dodge Viper rear wheel drive sequential gearbox QBE33GCV £6250.00

Please see our Bellhousing and Accessory pages for parts to accompany this transmission
 

Joel

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56, \"Fastest shifting transmission\"

Unfortunately the Quaife, being a race box has no internal speed sensor, which is a bit of a problem for a road car, it requires a different length propshaft, relocation of the starter and its noisy and unfriendly for road use.......but I'd still like to have one, quite a high torque handling capacity too.
 
OP
OP
M

MelloYellow

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56, \"Fastest shifting transmission\"

Racecar Engineering Magazine had a brief article on Zeroshift several months ago. According to the article, it's the real deal. But, I was still skeptical, so I contacted the Magazine's editor. He understood my skepticism but assured me it was the real deal. Racecar Engineering will have a follow-up article, in great detail, in a future issue.

Feb '04 Issue:
http://www.zeroshift.com/res/content/news/pdfs/RacecarEngineering0204.pdf
 

JDR

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[Drawings]: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56, \"Fastest shifting transmission\"

Found the patent:
The Roller Bearing Clutches (instead of syncros) are actually inside the gears. I've seen something similar before, but only on machines with less than 1hp motors (on a much smaller scale). I'm real curious about long-term durability.

3059Image10-med.jpg


3059Image9-med.jpg


3059Image11-med.jpg
 

Torquemonster

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56, \"Fastest shifting transmission\"

Very interesting. You still have however something designed around the T-56 which will always have its limitations above 900rwtq.

The Quaife is a good unit.

The Holinger I believe is the best of the race Viper boxes. They employ best practice in the industry from expert CAD design to CNC machining and quality control. They will be supplying all gearboxes for the 2005 Porsche RSR and Cup cars. For Porsche to change suppliers when their older boxes have been so successful is a huge statement as Porsche are regarded in the industry as the worlds greatest engineering OEM. These boxes run/ran in several Viper racing teams over the past few years with no reported failures.

Holinger is the manufacturer that is working on the new synchro prototype that myself and a collegue look forward to announcing at the end of this year - rated at 1000lb/ft. We have been working with Holinger towards launching their products into the USA market as it makes sense for the worlds best box to be sold here. I have been modelling proposed gear ratios for the race box and the up-coming synchro - although road racers will have an option to choose their own ratios.

I am working on drag race ratios for the race box to enable Viper owners to be able to run street gearing, swap boxes and get the torque multiplication they need on taller sticky rubber, then easily revert back to street with out also changing ring and pinion. Holinger are going to provide a box with drag ratios so people can see what they are like - we'll make an announcement when the car is ready so interested parties can see it run, look at it and demonstrate it.

The race box comes with an optional electric engine idle switch on the gearknob - as you sequentially shift, the engine cuts to idle and you are able to shift as fast as the hand can move while the foot remains at full throttle. This makes for lightning shifts that are smooth. These boxes are streetable - but not daily driver refined like the synchro will be. They run 7 and 8 seconds in the quarter mile in other applications - like Skylines in Japan - so for a road race box they've been supurbly well designed.

The synchro box will be on display at PRI. I believe that box will be without peer for power capability and driveability in a street daily driver.

If anyone is interested pm me as an initial batch will be ordered on a first come first served basis. Holinger will direct US enquiries to me but I'm sure Leigh (their design chief) would be happy to answer any tech questions anyone has.
 

Steamroller

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56, \"Fastest shifting transmission\"

Does anyone have the patent number?
 

Vic

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56, \"Fastest shifting transmission\"

Wish you the best with that, Torquey One.

Looking at the "roller bearing clutches" in the Zero Shift, it appears that each gear is constantly meshed with another gear, but torque is not transferred from one to the other until the "roller bearing clutches"" engage. The gear sets not being used just idle with no power going through them. Each gear is driven on its shaft through its own roller bearing clutch. The rollers are held between two driving elements, one inner, and one outer. The inner block grips the shaft, the outer block grips the inside of the gear. These roller "blocks" have a slight ramp to them, that traps the roller, and forces the outer block and the inner block apart, to grip the shaft and the gear, and this forces the gear to turn on the shaft. When the torque is applied in one direction, the rollers engage the gear on the shaft. When the torque is applied in the opposite direction, the ramps let go of the rollers, and that gear then disengages. Thats the essence of the system, if I read the drawing right.

There's more to it, that's difficult to ascertain from the drawing, such as how are the roller clutches selected individualy? Is it driven by torque demand, or is that a control rod illustrated, going through the entire gear set, to select the desired ratio?
 

JDR

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56, \"Fastest shifting transmission\"

Does anyone have the patent number?
http://www.toomonline.com/gearboxlinks.htm

Scroll down about 2/3 of the way, I found the link to the Patent there.

I ALSO just got an e-mail from their Sales office stating it's an old patent, and they have a better (and complete) one that's not been publicly released yet. ...time will tell.
 

ZeroShift

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56, \"Fastest shifting transmission\"

Racecar Engineering Magazine had a brief article on Zeroshift several months ago. According to the article, it's the real deal. But, I was still skeptical, so I contacted the Magazine's editor. He understood my skepticism but assured me it was the real deal. Racecar Engineering will have a follow-up article, in great detail, in a future issue.

Hi

Revealing the technology to respected journalists like Charles Armstrong-Wilson (RCE) and Keith 'Mainframe' Howard (Autocar) was to corroborate our claims. Apart from that we've elected to conduct our business away from the media glare. We'll be handing over our TVR Cerbera soon and it features a few tricks that we've not talked about at all so far.

Confidentiality can breed conspiracy theories and provoke the BS flag but such things bother me a whole lot less than the commercial risk of spilling our guts to the curious. ;)

fletcher The 2.0AT/1.6MT/1.4ZS point is an illustration of the fact that ZeroShift enables downsizing. These are the basic assumptions:
- 0-60mph is parity between a 1.6MT and a 2.0AT.
- A manual shift in a 'normal car' takes around 750ms.
- Two shifts to 60 gives the 1.4 ZS-equipped car a 1.5 second advantage over the 1.6MT.
- There is rarely as much as 1.5 seconds between a 1.4 and a 1.6 ergo 1.4ZS is faster.
- 1.4ZS is likely to be up to 40kg lighter than the 1.6MT and as much as 80kg lighter than the 2.0AT. This is based on a NEW ZS box, not a converted MT. Weight saving, and maintaining momentum through the shift in the ZS car will give it another edge.
Granted, it's a generalism but it's not dishonest. For 8.0 litre 900bhp+ motorists :eek: , it probably passes you by anyway!

Vic is correct in his explanation of overdriving gears as the means by which a zero time ratio switch is achieved. Overdriving gears has proven precedents on the quarter mile. Trouble is, you can only go up the gears and can't lift in any gear but top. Going both ways and having no backlash is the basis of the major inventive step.

The patent information is a red herring. Inventor Bill Martin has been pursuing zero time/uninterrupted torque shifting since the mid-90s. That patent is an old design. You'll find more if you look. The actual patents of the current system are too young to be available on the online systems - there's over 20 of them. Randolph Toom, I think, picked the link to that old patent off a Stock Exchange thread in the UK.

Two more points worth answering: price and torque/power rating.
- Our 'target' price includes installation, warranty and UK tax (17.5%) - i.e. it's complete. Beware of apparently lower prices where other parts, labour and tax need to be added.
- We've received quite a few enquiries from Viper owners quoting some spectacular torque/power figures. A UK Viper owner with a hot motor has volunteered his car so we'll give it a go. I've no idea what, if anything, would break but beefing up gears so they don't lose teeth and stiffening the case is basic stuff. I see the wild Vipers as the means of discovering just how much punishment our product will stand. We will certainly rise to the challenge!

Finally, the bottom line is that we're car enthusiasts at ZeroShift. I'm not here to sell/argue/mislead. I love Vipers (pretty rare over here!) and appreciate the emails we receive - especially the photos! :2tu:

Best wishes

P.
 

MannyC

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56, \"Fastest shifting transmission\"

Racecar Engineering Magazine had a brief article on Zeroshift several months ago. According to the article, it's the real deal. But, I was still skeptical, so I contacted the Magazine's editor. He understood my skepticism but assured me it was the real deal. Racecar Engineering will have a follow-up article, in great detail, in a future issue.

Hi

Revealing the technology to respected journalists like Charles Armstrong-Wilson (RCE) and Keith 'Mainframe' Howard (Autocar) was to corroborate our claims. Apart from that we've elected to conduct our business away from the media glare. We'll be handing over our TVR Cerbera soon and it features a few tricks that we've not talked about at all so far.

Confidentiality can breed conspiracy theories and provoke the BS flag but such things bother me a whole lot less than the commercial risk of spilling our guts to the curious. ;)

fletcher The 2.0AT/1.6MT/1.4ZS point is an illustration of the fact that ZeroShift enables downsizing. These are the basic assumptions:
- 0-60mph is parity between a 1.6MT and a 2.0AT.
- A manual shift in a 'normal car' takes around 750ms.
- Two shifts to 60 gives the 1.4 ZS-equipped car a 1.5 second advantage over the 1.6MT.
- There is rarely as much as 1.5 seconds between a 1.4 and a 1.6 ergo 1.4ZS is faster.
- 1.4ZS is likely to be up to 40kg lighter than the 1.6MT and as much as 80kg lighter than the 2.0AT. This is based on a NEW ZS box, not a converted MT. Weight saving, and maintaining momentum through the shift in the ZS car will give it another edge.
Granted, it's a generalism but it's not dishonest. For 8.0 litre 900bhp+ motorists :eek: , it probably passes you by anyway!

Vic is correct in his explanation of overdriving gears as the means by which a zero time ratio switch is achieved. Overdriving gears has proven precedents on the quarter mile. Trouble is, you can only go up the gears and can't lift in any gear but top. Going both ways and having no backlash is the basis of the major inventive step.

The patent information is a red herring. Inventor Bill Martin has been pursuing zero time/uninterrupted torque shifting since the mid-90s. That patent is an old design. You'll find more if you look. The actual patents of the current system are too young to be available on the online systems - there's over 20 of them. Randolph Toom, I think, picked the link to that old patent off a Stock Exchange thread in the UK.

Two more points worth answering: price and torque/power rating.
- Our 'target' price includes installation, warranty and UK tax (17.5%) - i.e. it's complete. Beware of apparently lower prices where other parts, labour and tax need to be added.
- We've received quite a few enquiries from Viper owners quoting some spectacular torque/power figures. A UK Viper owner with a hot motor has volunteered his car so we'll give it a go. I've no idea what, if anything, would break but beefing up gears so they don't lose teeth and stiffening the case is basic stuff. I see the wild Vipers as the means of discovering just how much punishment our product will stand. We will certainly rise to the challenge!

Finally, the bottom line is that we're car enthusiasts at ZeroShift. I'm not here to sell/argue/mislead. I love Vipers (pretty rare over here!) and appreciate the emails we receive - especially the photos! :2tu:

Best wishes

P.

A beefed up version of this for 1000HP Vipers would be fantastic if priced right. How much do you think a version that could handle such power would cost installed? And when would us USA customers be able to get one?

-Manny
 

ZeroShift

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56,

Manny:

Honest answer is I don't know. It really will be a case of try a box and see what happens. Starting from the beginning, stock Tremec T56s will handle up to 550lbft/750Nm. The synchros fail under duress and aggressive shifts exacerbate the problem with shock loads AND rushed synchros ergo the T56 starts to fail as you up the power/torque of the motor and drive like a thief. It is not however a fundamentally weak box.

ZeroShift replaces the synchros and our shift regime is more benign. Plus, we re-manufacture our box internals to a blueprint standard - "value engineering" them won't happen for some time! These factors add quite a lot of headroom to the box rating. With ZeroShift you kind of wind the driveline up once and hold it in tension as opposed to repeated twisting shock loads.

Going further still, we liberate a fair amount of space when we replace the synchros with the ZeroShift mechanism so beefing up the gears is easily possible. Beyond that bracing and cryo-treating the casing may be necessary.

I'm not making any claims here but I suspect our 'cooking' ZS-T56 will be good for at least 25% more punishment. 'Hotrodding' it with other materials, treatments and beefed up components may be enough to get another 25%, taking you up to about 1175Nm from 750Nm.
Maybe that's enough. It would be fun to try! :headbang:

1000bhp. Jeez, you guys take the biscuit (and PLEASE don't tell me 1000rwtq is lb/ft rather than Nm...) Over here my penchant for pedalling 700bhp is regarded as pretty insane. I just had a PM from a guy plotting 2000bhp. Man, I feel like a needle-d*ck now.... :shocked:
 

MannyC

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56,

Yeah, my car runs over 800 RWHP and over 800 RW Foot pounds of Torque, and there are MANY other car owners here that have these numbers beat.

-M
 

Torquemonster

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56,

I've been communicating with Phil and I have to say that when these things come along sometime in 2006 they'll be quite something to look out for. I think the idea is a winner. The UK guys are lucky they will get a years head start on the rest of the world.... no doubt a few will find their way acorss the ditch however.... ;-)

For the heavy hitters making 800rwtq + (yes lb/ft) the new Holinger synchro will remain the only viable choice for a couple of years anyway... who knows - in 10 years time - synchros may be a thing of the past. :headbang:
 

ZeroShift

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56,

Blimey. Never mind the tranny, what the heck are your tires made out of????? I'm pretty familiar with the challenge of directing 630+lb/ft into the tarmac ...months of suspension adjustment, softened 315's ...and even then it's a bit "one false move and you're standing still or pointing in the opposite direction".

ONE THOUSAND POUNDS PER FOOT. Just mullin' it over...

Yer know, the Merc CL65 has 738lb/ft - double that of the Lamborghini Gallardo. The CL65, no lightweight, flickers its traction control light most of the way to 120mph. What the hell happens when you drop the hammer on 1000lb/ft (or more?)???

:eek:

Please tell ... I am totally in awe.
 

BigCarrot

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56,

I have 900ftlbs to the wheels, so 1060 or so at the crank. I leave BFG drag radials on my car and I hook like a champ! For some odd reason I've never seen my traction control light flicker. Not once! ;)
 

old96er

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56,

Is it a sequential box then? What is the shift pattern, is there special reverse engagement? Can you describe what the shift process is like?
 

ZeroShift

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56,

Is it a sequential box then? What is the shift pattern, is there special reverse engagement? Can you describe what the shift process is like?

The ZeroShift mechanism fits between gears, replacing either dog rings or synchromesh. If you start with a sequential box (Holinger, Xtrac etc.) you'll still have a sequential box. If you start with an H-gate box (T56, T10 etc.) you'll still have an H-gate box.

Both types of gearbox will need ZeroShift's FlatLiner control. Racing sequential boxes usually already have some means of clutch/throttle control. FlatLiner is a re-programming (or replacement) of these. An H-gate box needs them added.

The 'basic' aftermarket kit is an exchange transmission (eg T56) plus a FlatLiner kit for the specific car (eg Viper). You will retain the clutch pedal for launch/creep and retain the H-gate. You will launch using the clutch pedal (forwards or backwards!) but all other shifts up and down the gears require you only to move the stick. Impossible shifts (6th to 1st at 150mph are inhibited). How does it feel? GREAT! Acceleration from rest is a sustained kick in the guts. If you want to go 4th to 2nd into a tight corner, just go 4th to 2nd. Keeping the H-gate retains the ability to skip ratios. The motivation for I-gates (sequential) is absent in a ZeroShift gearbox because there is no time penalty on the actual shift if you move your arm slowly. If you take 2 minutes going from 2nd to 3rd, you will be in 2nd all the way until you hit the 3rd slot. If you want Neutral, move to Neutral and lift off the gas.

The next option up the scale is FromZero. This is launch/creep/hillstart and deletes the clutch pedal. Reverse is still in the same place. Below 5mph you can flick between 1st and Reverse for manoeuvring. The relevance of this is that some automated clutches demand a foot on the brake to switch direction which makes you look like a novice car parker to onlookers as you wrestle to manoeuvre into a parking space in a series of jerky moves. Sure, this loads the clutch but that's your choice, just as it would be if you were doing it now with a normal manual. i.e. you have the choice of stopping between forward/backward motion when you have the time but for those quick parking lot moves, you won't be thwarted by the transmission 'logic'.

Hope that answers the question!
 

Joel

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56,

I assume that Flatliner is a means of introducing a momentary throttle cut as the gears are changing to relieve the load. If this is the case, is it sensed by a strain sensor in the gearknob ? Does it then interface also with the clutch switch.

A further puzzle. A manual shift may take 0.5 to 0.75 of a second. But eliminating this time wouldn't cause a corresponding drop in 0-60 time or quarter mile time. Or is my thinking faulty ?
 

kenvw

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Re: Zeroshift: synchroless T-56,

Zeroshift,
You stated that there would be no need for the sequential box over the H pattern because of the zeroshift mechanism. However, there still is a chance with the H-pattern box to pull it down from a high rev in 3 back into 2. With the sequential box this accidental mistake is eliminated. I would think your system would be good on sequential box giving us the best options all around.
 

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