WARNING VIPER Engines with an Accumsump are imminent danger of possible failure

[CarDude]

On April the 1, 2007 my wife and I were driving the SRT Truck, when out of no where the engine all of a sudden started making a knocking sound. I looked at the temp gauge and the oil temp gauge and everything looked fine. I started to pull over and the engine light came on right before we came to a stop. We noticed oil all over the front end of the vehicle, so we called Dodge Roadside to have the vehicle towed to the dealer.

Upon inspection the Viper tech informed me that a solenoid on the Accumsump failed (EPC). I called Canton Racing Products and they said I need to send them the parts...I did and this is their response after six weeks of my truck sitting at the dealer.

I really need everyones help here...I have called numerous times. Please, please let everyone know how they handle their customers, even when they are at fault.

Dear Lawrence,

We are sorry that you are having a problem. After talking with the owner of our company today, we came up with the following conclusion.

1. Please see our below "Limited Warranty" which is inside our catalog, on our website and is on the backs of our invoice and packing lists. That this "Limited Warranty" only covers the product that is in question.

2. The SRT-10 has a normal oil pressure range of around 70 lbs and that the engine has a oil pressure bypass for oil pressures above 80 lbs. That the SRT-10 has an oil pressure warning light that comes on if the oil pressure goes below 15 lbs for 5 seconds or more. Once the oil pressure is back above 15 lbs for 5 seconds or more the light goes off. That the operator of any vehicle is the one who is ultimately responsible for the welfare of it, did the warning light not come on?

3. That since you want to be compensated for more than just the E.P.C.
valve itself then you should contact our vendor directly;

Farmington Engineering Inc.
7 Orchard Park Road
Madison, CT 06443
ATTN: Tom Ryan (Sales Manager)
203-245-1100 Ext 22
203-245-3072 (Fax)

That they are the company that sold our company the valves under the pretense that they are the right valves for the application.



LIMITED WARRANTY
This limited warranty applies to any product which, after careful inspection by Canton Racing Products, Inc., is found to have a defect in either material or workmanship.

Canton Racing Products, Inc. warrants that when our products are properly installed in their correct application they will be free from defect.

Any product returned for warranty must be returned to Canton Racing Products, Inc. within 90 days of purchase. All returns must include the original sales slip or proof of purchase, detailed information regarding the problem, your name, address and phone number.

If returned product is found by Canton Racing Products, Inc. to be defective in either material or workmanship, Canton Racing Products, Inc. will either repair or replace the product at its discretion and its sole cost.

This limited warranty DOES NOT cover or apply to any personal injury, labor charges or apply to products that have been:

* Damaged in transit, subject to abuse, neglect, accident or improper installation.
* Altered or modified outside of Canton Racing Products, Inc.
specifications.
* Used in other than those applications recommended by Canton Racing Products.

THIS LIMITED WARRANTY IS THE ONLY EXPRESS WARRANTY WHICH APPLIES TO CANTON RACING PRODUCTS, INC. AND IS EXPRESSLY GIVEN IN LIEU OF ANY OTHER WARRANTY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED. OTHER WARRANTIES INCLUDING THAT OF MERCHANTABILITY AND/OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE IS HEREBY EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMED.

This limited warranty gives you specific legal rights and you may also have other rights which vary from state to state.

EXCEPT FOR THOSE OBLIGATIONS ASSUMED HEREIN, CANTON RACING PRODUCTS, INC. ASSUMES NO OTHER OBLIGATIONS IN CONNECTION WITH THE SALE OF ITS PRODUCTS.

Canton Racing Products, Inc. reserves the right to change specifications at any time. The changes will be made without obligation to change any products previously manufactured. Canton Racing Products, Inc. reserves the right to change prices at any time.

Sincerely,
Thor Schroeder

To address (2) in his answer, the Viper engine requires 10 psi per 1K of RPMs, so anything near the "15 lbs for 5 seconds " is far too late to save the engine. You tell me if any reasonable person monitors their oil pressure gauge constantly. The valve was pouring oil out even when the engine was not running.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

To address (2) in his answer, the Viper engine requires 10 psi per 1K of RPMs, so anything near the "15 lbs for 5 seconds " is far too late to save the engine. You tell me if any reasonable person monitors their oil pressure gauge constantly. The valve was pouring oil out even when the engine was not running.

There is gauge and a light. His question was, "did the light not come on?"

Is it safe to assume your answer is, "I don't know."

 

[Viper Specialty]

I think you are going a little extreme here, these kinds of things do happen. Technically, ANY seal on an engine oiling system that goes bad will result in the same thing you have experienced here, it is not unique to just Accusumps.

Sorry to pour salt in the wound, but yes, it is ultimately the drivers responsibility to monitor the oil pressure gauge and warning light. since you technically ran the engine dry, there should ahve been many warning signs on the way to "dry", and at some point, the pressure should have simply plummeted, and it should have been noticed and turned off. I understand accidents happen, but there is not a lot that can be said about this. It is not a design flaw, it was a mistake/accident. Of the MANY valves I have sold over the years, I have NEVER had a valve fail, only a couple EPC units- and they were nowhere near catastrophic, just a drip-drip-drip situation.

(And for reference to anyone else, I did not build nor sell this system... just putting my qualified experience here)

 

[CarDude]

I think you are going a little extreme here, these kinds of things do happen. Technically, ANY seal on an engine oiling system that goes bad will result in the same thing you have experienced here, it is not unique to just Accusumps.

Sorry to pour salt in the wound, but yes, it is ultimately the drivers responsibility to monitor the oil pressure gauge and warning light. since you technically ran the engine dry, there should ahve been many warning signs on the way to "dry", and at some point, the pressure should have simply plummeted, and it should have been noticed and turned off. I understand accidents happen, but there is not a lot that can be said about this. It is not a design flaw, it was a mistake/accident. Of the MANY valves I have sold over the years, I have NEVER had a valve fail, only a couple EPC units- and they were nowhere near catastrophic, just a drip-drip-drip situation.

(And for reference to anyone else, I did not build nor sell this system... just putting my qualified experience here)

Unfortunately you are incorrect...the valve is pouring out...I have video of it. Can someone host it? It started pouring out even before we started the engine at the dealer. Remember, that the Viper needs 10 psi of oil per 1 K of RPMs, any less and boom. The truck was not out of oil when we stopped, but it did eventually all drain out, as the Accsump sits just lower than the oil filter. But thanks for your support...it's your engine my friend. If you feel safe that you will see your oil pressure dip when oil is pouring out of the motor (not dripping) you play hard ball.

Furthermore did you read his statement...trying to limit their liability

Farmington Engineering Inc.
7 Orchard Park Road
Madison, CT 06443
ATTN: Tom Ryan (Sales Manager)
203-245-1100 Ext 22
203-245-3072 (Fax)

That they are the company that sold our company the valves under the pretense that they are the right valves for the application.

 

[CarDude]

Here is another email I received from them at an earlier date....

Dear Lawrence,
The reason for the e-mail is that we still haven't heard anything yet from our vendor. If I were in the situation that you are in, I would get the truck fixed and then bill the parties afterwards.

Canton Racing Products
232 Branford Rd.
North Branford, CT
06471
p.) 203-481-9460
f.) 203-481-9641
WWW.CANTONRACINGPRODUCTS.COM

 

[Viper Specialty]

I would certainly be interested in the video, I am curious what exactly failed. If they sold you the wrong part, thats one thing- but things DO fail sometimes, I am just telling you that of the 50-75 I have sold in total over the years, I have NEVER had a valve fail, so I cannot say it is a design flaw.

 

[CarDude]

Can someone host a video?

 

[Viper Specialty]

E-mail it to me, I can host it.

 

[CarDude]

Short and Bad video, but you can see the oil pouring out even before the engine starts and pressurizes. I will try to edit the video...I have a much longer video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syQYMLOrT_Y

 

[Viper Specialty]

OK... now I have to switch sides... I am with you on this one. You have described the wrong part- the valve didnt fail, the EPC SWITCH did. I have seen 3 or 4 of these fail over the last couple years, however never like yours, only dripping.

I think Canton has whatever is coming to them for not addressing the build quality issues on those by NOW!

 

[CarDude]

OK... now I have to switch sides... I am with you on this one. You have described the wrong part- the valve didnt fail, the EPC SWITCH did. I have seen 3 or 4 of these fail over the last couple years, however never like yours, only dripping.

I think Canton has whatever is coming to them for not addressing the build quality issues on those by NOW!

I really can't believe it took them six weeks to tell me I am on my own. I sent them the whole assembly back ($120 to ship), as they required only for them to tell me to get lost. The accusump is suppose to save your engine not cost me mine. The engine blew up before we had any idea something was wrong. It sprayed oil all down the side of the truck. So much oil came out so quickly the inside of passenger front rim was coated in oil.

The most ridiculous part is the thought the Viper engine would run on 15 psi of oil at any time...maybe at idle. I was crusing down a canyon, having fun then boom. I really wonder if there isn't some responsiblity of Dodge here. If I had know I was approaching an oiling problem (Viper needs 10 psi for every 1K in rpms) an engine light...I woudl have pulled over immediately.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I hope I'm not the only one that didn't see anything unusual in the video. Do you have a better vid?

And you never answered the second question. Did the light come on or not? Did the gauge go low or not?

 

[CarDude]

I hope I'm not the only one that didn't see anything unusual in the video. Do you have a better vid?

And you never answered the second question. Did the light come on or not? Did the gauge go low or not?

Look at the black solenoid in the video...you can see the oil pouring out. (run the video in the larger mode)

And yes the light did come on, that is when we pulled over. The engine had already started knocking before we were able to pull over and before any check engine light came on. We were reving about 4K when the engine started to knock, and smoke rolled out the back. By the time we were slowing down to pull over the check engine light came on. You don't just slam on the brakes when the engine starts knocking. You pull over in a a safe place. When the engine started to knock...I knew the engine was blown, I just didn't know why.

 

[Boxer12]

Don't you have a Chrysler warranty? Why isn't this covered? Did you exceed the mileage? You can sue, but it would be something to do without an attorney, since atty bills will eat you up more than engine repair costs. Take them to small claims court, which usu has a limit of $10K recovery or so, depending on state limits. Or next level up to get full damages. Most states have forms you can use to file a complaint. I can answer questions if you need me to. Jim

 

[Vic]

Reminds me of when I hit a piece of wood, that penetrated the oil cooler. Oil began spraying out of the front of the car, coating the whole car as I was pulling over. The oil pressure gauge started to dip right as I was shutting it down. That was 40,000 miles ago, no engine problems whatsoever, so I guess I dodged a bullet..

I've got an Accusump on my GTS. Maybe I should change the EPC switch to another brand?

 

[CarDude]

Don't you have a Chrysler warranty? Why isn't this covered? Did you exceed the mileage? You can sue, but it would be something to do without an attorney, since atty bills will eat you up more than engine repair costs. Take them to small claims court, which usu has a limit of $10K recovery or so, depending on state limits. Or next level up to get full damages. Most states have forms you can use to file a complaint. I can answer questions if you need me to. Jim

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act covers the manufacturer in circumstances like these, although I may have some a ilittle leg to stand on. I think a case can be made for the inability to save the engine since the "check engine light" does not come on until 6 PSI. The Viper motor can not live at that PSI. As such I woudl have never been able to do anything about a low oil condition. The motor goes boom, no matter what I would have done.

BTW here is a better VIDEO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPrC_oIMBO4

 

[CarDude]

Can you guys please help? If you do want to help you can tell Canton racing products that they are wrong. There is no other underlining story here where I misused the product…read the Sale Managers response. He said the valve failed…plain and simple. If you want to help you can email Canton at [email protected] I know I would appreciate it and so might someelse who is just thinking about buying this product and they have no idea it could fail.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Look at the black solenoid in the video...you can see the oil pouring out. (run the video in the larger mode)

Ok I see it now. Hope you get resolution.

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

FYI. I had one go bad too. But it was a drip drip situation. I have a VERY STRONG feeling this is a known issue. I'm sure Daniel can supply a list of customers he has that have had that same issue, and when you get your ducks in a row, you could have a MUCH stronger case. For example, time and money was lost by me by not being able to drive my car while it was out of commision, I had to remove the part my self (no compensation for my labor), wait on the delivery of the new part, PAY $50 for Fedex Next day, reinstall the new part (no compensation for my labor), and then pay to ship it back to them, ONLY to be returned $75 for the part itself, which they took almost a month and 1/2 to test and return credit for. No refund of fedex overnight, no refund for my shipping to them, no compensation for my time removing and reinstalling the failed part.

No, I'd say you have a very strong case that this is a WELL KNOWN defect, and about now they are wondering if they are going to get away with all these failure without anyone knowing it. Its not isolated !!

Does this mean mine is coming off? No way, I think the idea/kit is great. I just think they had or have a bad run of EPC sensors.

Jon

 

[slaughterj]

I take it this is not a stock part, else you would just take it to Dodge and have it covered under warranty?

 

[CarDude]

I take it this is not a stock part, else you would just take it to Dodge and have it covered under warranty?

It is not a stock part. Viper motors are known to have oil issues, I added the Accusump to add longevity to the motor. Did you know that the cam rides direcly on the aluminum block, so a dry start is pretty ******* any motor; especially a $12K one. I do believe Dodge has some responsibilty in the matter. The manufacturer is well aware that the Viper Motor requires 10 psi at every 1K of rpms.

Why did the dummy light not go off until a few minutes after the motor blew due to oil starvation? How can I be responsible if I know nothing. The computer should shut the motor off in situations where low oil pressure is in danger of destroying the motor. I know I don't want my Viper or SRT Ram to shut off all the time, but if the oil system were up to par I don't think it would ever be a worry.

 

[CarDude]

**Newest update** I was told by an engineer at Farmington Engineering, the reseller of a EPC valve, used on the Accusump, that there have been "quite a few failures". They sent mine as well as many others to the manufacturer in Italy for diagnoses. I was unable to talk the Sales Manager at Farmington regarding these failures. I am sure it will be another person to "pass the buck". The valve Accusump is using in the Viper applications has a maximum pressure of 88.2 psi. I am assuming anything above that psi and the valves diaphrams fail. What happens after failure is a crap shot, does the oil pour or does it drip, that may depend on the direction George W. Bush is standing at the time (since everything is his fault).

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

What happens after failure is a crap shot, does the oil pour or does it drip, that may depend on the direction George W. Bush is standing at the time (since everything is his fault).

LOL

Seriously however, when I began reading this I got the impression this was a Dodge issue. Nice to know that it isn't and that my 106,000 mile Viper and 35,000 mile track Viper are going strong without any "required" aftermarket fixes.

 

[CarDude]

LOL

Seriously however, when I began reading this I got the impression this was a Dodge issue. Nice to know that it isn't and that my 106,000 mile Viper and 35,000 mile track Viper are going strong without any "required" aftermarket fixes.

The only Dodge issue is the known oiling issues and the inability for the computer to shut down the motor when oil issues are detected.

Here is my response to Canton....




Canton Racing Products Management,

Now that I have calmed down I will address your email in a more professional manner.

1. Your warranty is not a document for you to hide behind. Your product failed and cost me my engine, plain and simple. Ford Motor company's limited warranty didn't protect them from legal action when their product failed and cost people there lives. Ford had to pay even when the tires were purchased from Firestone. Just like in this case, you failed to act when you knew there was a problem. As Farmington has informed me, this is not the first failure; it (failure) has happened "quite a few times", to quote an engineer at Farmington. I don't care who sold you the parts...I purchased the final product from you.

2. You are correct the SRT10 engine has a normal range of around 70 psi, although it has spikes to 300 psi. The pressure bypass you referred to, is actually around 100 psi and it is a mechanical spring (so the precision is not there). The valve that you have chosen to use has a maximum psi range of 88.2 psi per its manufacturer's specs. Your negligent part selection is to blame here. You should immediately recall the part as it is in danger of costing you more than my engine. I am sure a class action law suit wouldn't be out of the question here. If you question my facts call Arrow Racing and ask for Todd (1-800-551-8477). They are the warranty rebuilder for all Viper motors. They dyno the engines before they return them for reinstallation into Vipers and SRT10 Rams. And finally the check engine light did go off, unfortunately the motor had already imploded. "A day late and a dollar short" as they say.

3. The vendor is not responsible as your pressure valve selection is to blame here.

I still fail to see why it took you six weeks to try and hiding behind your "limited warranty". If that is what you intended the entire time, you should have stated that up front, and not wasted my time. Your actions speak louder than words here, you know you are responsible. I hope you sleep well a night, knowing your are being dishonest. This is no way to run a business, except maybe into the ground. I did nothing wrong, except trust your reputation and install your system, which you designed for my application. If you continue down this road you will only be left with your parts, not your reputation.

I want the parts returned to me in the condition they were sent to you. I also want the results of the "test" that was run against the failed valve. I believe I paid for that test in full with my engine and my time you continue to waste. I want the full payment of my engine rebuild and all costs incurred due to your negligent inaction.

 

[womsterr]

I'm sorry you have to go through this man. Your best bet would simply be to file suit against the company that sold you the part, Canton racing products, and Farmington and let them hash it out.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

The only Dodge issue is the known oiling issues and the inability for the computer to shut down the motor when oil issues are detected.

As far as I know the Viper was never designed to shut down when oil issues were detected.

Any tech guys wanna jump in here and confirm?

 

[AZTVR]

As far as I know the Viper was never designed to shut down when oil issues were detected.

Any tech guys wanna jump in here and confirm?

Are there any manufacturer's engine control systems that are designed to shut down the engine automatically when they detect harmful conditions?

I haven't heard of this being incorporated in street cars yet, although I don't keep up with the detailed descriptions of new car features like I used to.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Are there any manufacturer's engine control systems that are designed to shut down the engine automatically when they detect harmful conditions?

I haven't heard of this being incorporated in street cars yet, although I don't keep up with the detailed descriptions of new car features like I used to.

I've heard of it. I think the new 350z is like that.

The Viper doesn't need it. It already has a gauge and an idiot light.

 

[CarDude]

I've heard of it. I think the new 350z is like that.

The Viper doesn't need it. It already has a gauge and an idiot light.

I want to address your comments.

1. The "idiot light" does not come on until the oil less than 15 psi for 5 seconds. And as previously stated, the Viper motor requires 10 psi for every 1K in rpms. So less than 15 psi for 5 seconds is certain engine failure.

2. When you are driving at the track, lets say in a twisty part of the course, can you honestly tell me that you are staring at the oil pressure gauge. I certainly see need to review the gauges expecially when racing but during normal driving the oil pressure gauge in the Ram SRT is not on top like it is in the Viper, so when you get the "check engine light"...game over. It kind of sits behind the steering wheel on the instrument cluster. I review it but not the often, mostly on start up and in the first few miles of driving. It has never been a huge concern, obviously until now.

Because of this problem I have been monitoring my oil pressure more often in the Viper. I noticed something the other day that concerned me quite a bit. I was driving around a long and sharp turn, I looked at the oil pressure gauge and even though my rpms remained steady, my oil prssure began to drop. My was maybe two thousand miles into the current oil change, so I said I better just change it any way. I changed it, then repeated the test and the problem disappeared. I think I might have been close to needing to add some oil before the change, but certainly not below the "add oil" line on the dip stick. So my conclusion is, oil life really matters with this engine and you should check your oil level far more often then in a typical car.

 

[AZTVR]

The Viper doesn't need it. It already has a gauge and an idiot light.

I'd have to say that most people (including myself) don't check the gauges often enough during a road trip to catch this kind of problem early enough. It's not like being on the track and having a routine of checking gauges every lap.

Because of all the variables involved, I don't think that the warning lights are set high enough to be a safety net in the case of a rapid failure like CarDude describes in his case.

What I'm taking away from this is to make a specific effort to check gauges more often, especially during spirited driving.