Road racing a Gen III?

[TowDawg]

I know there have been plenty of threads about tracking our cars, but I'm trying to get a lot of info in one place, and I assume I'm not the only person who will fins this useful. Any of you track guys, please chime in.

Anyway, I was thinking about putting a Paxton on the car next winter to get more power, but after truly "pushing" it with Matt, Mike and the guy in the orange Gen IV this past weekend, I'm really getting the itch to get on a road course instead of putting the money into a Paxton.

Here are my questions, broken down into two categories, about what I need to get going:

MUST HAVE:

Since it's a vert, I assume I need the Autoform roll bar to get on a track?
Helmet. I already have an approved helmet, so I'm good there.
5 point harness. I think this is required?

LIKE TO HAVE:

Set of 18" track wheels and tires. (e-brake re-locator needed)
Better brake pads. I'm running Hawk ceramics now, but would want some other pads to swap in for the track. Suggestions?
Oil pick-up? I have heard some issues with oils starvation on the Gen III's.


Obviously, there are a TON of things that would be ideal (motons, upgraded brake rotors, etc), but that's way on down the list.

I'm just try to see what I HAVE to have "rule wise" and what I NEED to have (to not hurt the car) to get out on the track so I can get an idea of what kind of money it's going to cost. Anything that I've missed, please chime in!


Thanks,

Scott

 

[Barrels]

The only thing you NEED is either a rollbar or a seat lowering kit. The rollbar is the safest way to go, but a seat lowering kit will help you get by the "broomstick test" that most tracks use to qualify convertibles. This means that a broomstick has to be able to run from the top of your roll bar to the top of your windshield without touching your helmet. You won't need a harness, but it would be smart especially if you decide not to do a roll bar.

A stock Viper is way more car than you need if you are new to road courses. The stock systems (engine, brakes, handling) are more than sufficient until you start to get the car above 9/10ths. You shouldn't be close to that if you are new to track days. Just change your fluids and bleed your brakes and you will be fine.

 

[Slithr]

Oil pick-up? I have heard some issues with oils starvation on the Gen III's.

JonB suggested I go with a Gen IV oil pan to avoid this issue.

 

[Dom426h]

Wise decision. Roadracing will lead to much more enjoyment in the future.

Def take care of the oil starvation issue. Its a problem on Gen2's(1996-1999) & Gen3's
I upgraded my oilpan to highercapacity with baffles/trapdoors.

Wheels/Tires: If your just starting out i recommend doing your first few events with street tires. This will give you a good foundation for finding how the car handles at and beyond its limits. Then if you are Sure you want to get more serious go for the dedicated trackwheels&rubber. The 18" OZ's that Partsrack sells would be my pick.

5pointHarnes is not required for trackdays but it will make it much easier to control your vehicle as the harness holds you still so your arms can independently control the steeringwheel.
I dont yet have a harness and it makes things difficult going around a turn holding on the wheel at the same time trying to controll it. (i am waiting untill i get my raceseats until i throw the harnes on...)

 

[ViperGeorge]

Agree with Barrels, the rollbar is a must but many tracks will require you to pass the broomstick test with your helmet on. Unless you are shorter than me (5'10"), this can be tough unless you scrunch down and tilt seat back to angle your upper body back. Hard to drive this way though. Problem is that a corner worker could black flag you if they see your head sticking above the rollbar as you drive around the track (assuming you had to scrunch down to pass the test in the first place). A seat lowering kit might be the ticket if you can't easily pass the broomstick test. One other thing to note is that I know of some tracks, VIR comes to mind, that do not like the double hoop rollbars. They believe they can dig in on a flip. Not much choice though unless you custom fabricate one as all the bars I've seen for a vert are of this type.

Harnesses would be a great idea once the rollbar is in place. A swinging oil pickup off of a Gen IV would be a good addition to prevent oil starvation on hard cornering or on banked ovals. For brake pads I would contact Porterfield, they are very knowledgable and sell a number of different pads. They can recommend a good pad based on the tracks you are likely to visit. I use Raybestos Race pads and have had good luck with them. I've tried many different pads but these seem to be the best IMO. Bed them in though for optimal performance.

Flush your brake system and use Dot 4 High Temp fluid. I use Motol 600, also available from Porterfield. Castrol is great stuff but is expensive as heck. Probably a good idea to change the fluid in your clutch, trans, and rear too if they haven't been changed within 10000 miles. Grease the control arms too. A better shifter mechanism such as the MGW one available from Woodhouse would be great. In the excitement of being on track you could miss an upshift and downshift instead, not good. The MGW shifter with shorty knob dramatically improves shift feel.

A clear bra on the front of the car outside mirrors and clearplex on the windshield will protect the car from flying marbles and other track debris. Well worth it. I have the Clearplex stuff on my ACR windshield and it is great, easier to clean than glass as well. You might want to consider adding the air/oil separator that DC Performance sells. It prevents crankcase oil from making its way into the intake during hard breaking. Oil has an octane rating of about 50 so when the intake injests it the overall octane rating of your fuel is decreased. This can lead to detonation. More of a problem on a supercharged car but it is cheap insurance. Other stuff like aero and suspension you can do when you get more experience. As stated the Viper is a heck of a track car and has way more potential bone stock than most drivers will ever use.

Good luck and have fun.

 

[ViperGeorge]

Oh one more thing. Get a track alignment. -2 degrees camber up front and -1 or so in the rear. Really helps handling.

 

[MTGTS]

brake fluid and ss lines

 

[Konza800]

If you decide to get a harness then get a 6 point harness rather than a 5 point. Your car is already set up for the 6 point. And get one for the passenger seat as well. A lot of clubs require that the same restraint system be used on both the driver and instructor.

 

[Magnus_]

A lot of great ideas.

I think one of the absolute most important "MUST HAVES" is an instructor. Please please please PLEASE ride with one your first few DAYS out, you will learn so much.

I've been doing track days for 3 years now, probably 20+ track days a year, and I STILL speak to instructors as often as I can and am even deciding which race school I should take.

You will be so much safer with the help of an instructor to guide you.

 

[VIPER GTSR 91]

Brake rotors and track pads, proper brake fluid like motul, tires, harness, roll bar, proper full face helmet, and driving shoes to start with and FORGET the Paxton unless you are drag racing. Too much weight, more maintenance and unnecessary costs. Use that money for a good 3 day school. Good lap times come from the braking, entry and corner exit speed along with the proper line of course. And SEAT TIME.

 

[DMan]

On the tech stuff I highly recommend directly contacting the tracks you want to run at, they have rules that vary by track.

For ex, I've seen some guys post that they get away with running the vert with the stock hoops, but SummitPoint for ex specifically calls out the viper vert in its tech as "requires an aftermarket rollbar". And when you register your car for the trackday you have to select the viper and vert & it requires you acknowledge that you have an aftermarket rollbar before you can even pay, let alone get to tech. Like posted above, they also require the same restraint system be used for driver & passenger, so keep that in mind when you're doing a restraint upgrade.

Good luck and enjoy!

 

[TowDawg]

Thanks for all the input guys!
I am 5'10" so I hope I don't have lower the seat.
I know barrels mentioned the seat lowering kit OR the roll bar, but I would assume I have to have the roll bar to even get on the track (unless it's a private rental) because the stock "hoops" don't count as anything as far I've heard. So even if my helmet was under the stock hoops, I still wouldn't be allowed on?
Also, how bad the oil starvation issue? Is it a "DO NOT get on the track without a Gen IV system" or a "don't run the hell out of it track day after track day with it"? Obviously, I don't want to risk starving the engine of oil, but with a beginning track driver on street tires, am I in danger of getting it to the starvation point? Or is more of a higher level driver on track tires what pushes the issue? I will end up doing it anyway, but would like to try to start getting on the track for some seat time without having to make a bunch of mods and spend a good bit of money. I'm sure I'll love it, but how much time I have to actually do it very often also plays a role. This is by no means going to become a high level track car that I travel all the time and race every weekend.

Thanks again and keep it coming.

 

[VIPER GTSR 91]

Buy the book Going Faster and there is also a Skip Barber tape available as a package. Its sort of a drivers bible written by many pro racers. Its a great aid before, during, and after your 3 day school and in the future as a reference.

 

[Dom426h]

Thanks for all the input guys!
Also, how bad the oil starvation issue? Is it a "DO NOT get on the track without a Gen IV system" or a "don't run the hell out of it track day after track day with it"? Obviously, I don't want to risk starving the engine of oil, but with a beginning track driver on street tires, am I in danger of getting it to the starvation point? Or is more of a higher level driver on track tires what pushes the issue? Thanks again and keep it coming.

You can pull the same G-s around a turn as a professional driver on the same setup. The diff being that you would me more likely to pass the limit of the tires and spin out.
On a Gen3 without oiling upgrade i would run Motul 8100 oil and overfill by a half quart. Street tires only! Thats what i did with my GTS untill i upgraded the oilpan. The Motul oil is a class5 synthetic that has a greater affinity for metal meaning that it will stay on the parts longer.(hopfully buying you alittle time incase of a momentary oil starvation situation.

Its the Long turns where you are holding max G-s for an extended period of time that you have to worry about starvation. Sometimes there is only 1 or 2 of these on a track so you just have to know to take ateasy.

+1 on the alignment, im at 1.5front camber with removable shims to get me to 2, and 1 in the rear.

 

[redtanrt10]

Lot's of great advice and suggestions here already. In addition to a roll-bar suggest you get a hardtop, fresh fluids all around, and add a 1/2 quart extra of oil above the full line.. the modified Gen IV oil pan sold by viper specalities is the way to go, and a got to have if you get stickier tires. First time out PS2's are fine, then I'd suggest you get dedicated 18's and then move up to shaved Kuhmo's (before Hoosiers). Also, get a front tow hook, if you go off and get stuck, they grab and go to get you off.

A stock Gen III is a great track car. A pro driver will be faster in your stock viper than most of us in Gen IV ACR's. Paxton's (or any S/C set up's) aren't good for road courses, Hard to modulate the throttle and they will heat soak and lose power in a couple of laps.

have fun and be safe! Mike

 

[JonB]

Great Comments Above, may I answer and add:

1) CORRECT...the SRT10 Sport Hoops can be knocked off the car by and angry spouse with a well-swung baseball bat. COSMETIC

2) Urgently important road-racing rule of thumb that condenses all the above:

FIRST, MAKE IT STOP BETTER; SECOND, MAKE IT TURN BETTER; THEN, and ONLY Then... ADD POWER. NEXT: Improve 1 and 2 again.

3) UPGRADE THE SOFTWARE....... between your ears. I love novice students, because they can SCARE me a little, and yet they improve so dramatically after Day-One that they will never likley improve that much in just 1 day ever again! They really learn to understand their car's limits, and theirs, much better; So they really APPRECIATE the instruction . You GOTTA get some instruction. Hint: Does NOT have to be in a VIPER, but RWD is best. NARRA-Viper Days.

If you take the Blower Budget to improve rotors, lines, pads, fluid, cooling, alignment-suspension, tires/wheels, safety, oiling, and instruction, you will be $$ ahead, and lapping faster.

Fact: The intermediate and advanced drivers in the Viper World DONT likely have blowers on their Vipers; But they will convincingly out-lap you without even gripping the wheel tightly......ByeBye. You get to be intermediate-advanced by following the suggestions above. And DONT scimp on safety. SIX-Pt harneses, not 5; Better Brake fluid and pads; Sticky Rubber means Rollover Protection needed; HAVE FUN, and BE SAFE...

 

[TowDawg]

Well, at least I have the helmet and tow hook covered aleady!

 

[Barrels]

I know barrels mentioned the seat lowering kit OR the roll bar, but I would assume I have to have the roll bar to even get on the track (unless it's a private rental) because the stock "hoops" don't count as anything as far I've heard. So even if my helmet was under the stock hoops, I still wouldn't be allowed on?

I have had my Viper on VIR with stock hoops and they are one of the pickiest tracks. I also know Road Atlanta is cool with it. As mentioned in other posts, you need to check with the group putting on the track day you are attending to see if they will let you on. Don't get me wrong, an aftermarket rollbar is much safer than the stock hoops. Just know you can get on most tracks if you choose to go the stock route.

 

[TowDawg]

I have had my Viper on VIR with stock hoops and they are one of the pickiest tracks. I also know Road Atlanta is cool with it. As mentioned in other posts, you need to check with the group putting on the track day you are attending to see if they will let you on. Don't get me wrong, an aftermarket rollbar is much safer than the stock hoops. Just know you can get on most tracks if you choose to go the stock route.

Cool! Thanks for the tip. I didn't think anywhere would let you on (other than private rentals) with the stock jokes. Road Atlanta would probably be the place I would try first since I've been there before and it's pretty close to me.

 

[Leslie]

Lots of great suggestions on preparing your GenIII, they are an awsome car right out of the box. Bleed brakes, alignment, oil, right tire pressures and figure out the bar and you will be fine for now.

I am impressed you are taking your Viper out on the track. You will be amazed at how much you will learn that WILL apply to handling your snake on the street.

Drink lots of water
Listen to your instructor
Don't skip the classroom sessions if they have them
SLOW in, FAST out of the apex's, smooth, smooooth, SMOOOTH transitions from throttle to brake
Learn the 'line', where the corner workers are, watching your mirrors, looking ahead
Don't worry about the other drivers and how fast/slow they are, you WILL be faster if you listen
Try to get a ride or 2 with instructors if you can on the 2nd day

The best students I have had are those that listen, practice and take every opportunity they can to be on the track!

 

[JonB]

I have had my Viper on VIR with stock hoops and they are one of the pickiest tracks. I also know Road Atlanta is cool with it. As mentioned in other posts, you need to check with the group putting on the track day you are attending to see if they will let you on. Don't get me wrong, an aftermarket rollbar is much safer than the stock hoops. Just know you can get on most tracks if you choose to go the stock route.

Some clarifications: OEM Sport Hoops are NOT Roll bars. They wont save your life. They may add some support IF you have a HARD TOP. The AutoForn top is even mentioned by the SCCA in their GCRs. If a club or sanctioning body DOES 'let you on' its your life at risk...just their finances when your estate sues them. If you dont have rollofer protection, dont stay away...just drive at 75-80% and DONT use slicks...Slicks allow you to pull more Gs, corner faster, and can result in 'worse' rollovers if you lose it... Slicks=Rollover protection please. OE treaded tires are easier to manage...

OE harnesses are certified by the feds to 70 mph. No harnesses?

 

[Smokin' 2]

You are hearing from many of the "track folk" here. Just remember not to cut corners. Safety first. If you cannot afford safety you cannot afford to track on a regular basis. Stop first! I saw a dentist in a porsche end his life on a track in Indy from cutting corners. I distinctly remember him saying he should really service his brakes before going out for the session he went off and into a wall on. I've been to dozens of track days and that was the only day I recall being worried about someone that went off track). He was running stock belts and nothing other than a helmet. He didn't have the safety equipment he needed and failed to service his car when he knew he should.

Having said that, I can't think of a better thing to do with a Viper. Track the hell out of it and have fun! Slow and safe is better than fast and dangerous.

 

[TowDawg]

I have been on tracks before in different cars, but not in the Viper and I would definitely not describe myself as a track driver. I have no problem starting off at a comfortable pace and building speed as the laps go. I actually love to find somebody running just faster than I am and follow them until I'm comfortable at that pace and then move on to finding someone a little faster the next time.
I will still probably change tires (or just wear the current ones out faster) if I start going to the track more often. I just put new Invo's on (I know, I know Jon!) and honestly, they are great for 95% of driving. The really do hook up better in a straight line than the PS2's, but when you're pushing hard, the softer sidewalls do become a little unnerving at times. This past weekend at TOD, there were 4 of us that were running quite a bit harder than everyone else, and the Invo's require a little different approach than the PS2's. I definitely had to keep a lot of driveline tension on the tires to keep the back end from wanting to come around and I would definitely prefer the feeling a behavior of PS2's on a track.

 

[Leslie]

Yeh and the best part about the PS2's is if it rains you can still run.

 

[TrackAire]

I have been on tracks before in different cars, but not in the Viper and I would definitely not describe myself as a track driver. I have no problem starting off at a comfortable pace and building speed as the laps go. I actually love to find somebody running just faster than I am and follow them until I'm comfortable at that pace and then move on to finding someone a little faster the next time.
I will still probably change tires (or just wear the current ones out faster) if I start going to the track more often. I just put new Invo's on (I know, I know Jon!) and honestly, they are great for 95% of driving. The really do hook up better in a straight line than the PS2's, but when you're pushing hard, the softer sidewalls do become a little unnerving at times. This past weekend at TOD, there were 4 of us that were running quite a bit harder than everyone else, and the Invo's require a little different approach than the PS2's. I definitely had to keep a lot of driveline tension on the tires to keep the back end from wanting to come around and I would definitely prefer the feeling a behavior of PS2's on a track.

I recommend you take your Paxton budget and attend a good multi day driving school. I just finished a 4 day school at Bondurant in Arizona. There is just no way you can get this many "track" miles doing open track events in your Viper and learn this much (and never put any wear or tear on your car as you learn). I can't comment on other driving schools, but at Bondurant we had 3 days in brand new Corvette Grand Sports and one day in a Formula Mazda open wheel car. When we added up our odometer readings, we completed over 350 miles at pretty much full track speeds. Here are some things I did at Bondurant that you really can't do at most open track events:

-Practicing heal toe down shifting for 15 minutes at a time, just over and over again. Then the instructor gets in the car and observes your technique, gives advice and then jumps in your car to show you how it can be done. Then you get back in the car and try it again and again. You use a 200 yard section of asphalt and run down to a cone and back, practicing going from 3rd to 2nd at each end.

-Skid car with hydraulic wheel dollies in each corner that can raise the rear, front or any combination the instructor chooses. We were going around a small oval and were at it for about 15 minutes at a time. The instructor suprises you with oversteer, understeer or sort of a combination of both. These were 4 door Cadillac CTS sedans. If you didn't get car sick sitting in the back seat of the car during this excercise, nothing will upset your stomach.

-Brake threshold exercises where you get to test the anti lock brakes under both straight line and under evasive manuvers. (I've never see this done during an open track type event).

-Small ovals with constant radius, increasing radius and decreasing radius corners. Again, you get to go around these ovals over and over again, fine tuning your braking zones, trail braking and car placement on the apex. Then the instructor jumps in and also drives you around and then you're at it again. A couple of guys actually got car sick while driving because you are doing lap after lap of left hand turns.

-Last but not least, track driving. A lot of students actually got tired enough from the amount of laps that they pulled in before the session was over. All classes had 3 students per instructor.

-Rolling race starts and restarts for those interested in getting that part out of the way for their SCCA licenses.

To get this much track time in the Viper, I would have had to have done a ton of track days and would have never gotten the personalized instruction and feedback that a multi day driving school delivers. I chose Bondurant because they used a fairly high horsepower rwd car similar in size and weight to a Viper. Compared to using my Viper to learn road racing in, this was much less expensive, more thorough and I didn't put one once of wear on my car while learning and the mistakes that can happen (missed shifts, hitting apex curbs, etc).


I agree with JonB,....safety, brakes, etc. But quality instruction where you can do things in a repetive fashion over and over is just priceless. Once you finish a driving school, you'll be that much further ahead when getting your Viper on the track.

Good luck and have fun

Cheers,
George

 

[Magnus_]

TrackAire, thanks for posting about bondurant. That's one of the schools I'm considering taking to start of my path to getting a comp license.

 

[TrackAire]

TrackAire, thanks for posting about bondurant. That's one of the schools I'm considering taking to start of my path to getting a comp license.

Magnus,

I've been planning to do a comparison of the Viper vs the Grand Sport Corvette we used....the one I had only had 400 miles on the odometer when they handed me the keys.
Talk about breaking in a car right!!

I was very impressed with the whole Bondurant system...Bob Bondurant was there every day watching from either on the track or from his second story office. While we were there, Matt Farah and John Salley (the ex NBA star) were filming a new TV show for Speed Network called The Car Show. Adam Carolla is also a host but was not at Bondurant for the segment becaused he crashed a soap box derby car and sort of banged himself up. Anyway, Bob Bondurant fired up one of the ZR1's and took John Salley around the course for some hotlaps. Bob is 78 years old and he was freaking flying around the course....he made that ZR1 sing.

I really screwed up not doing the Bondurant course years ago. They had always claimed lots of "seat time" but if I had known we would log over 350 miles of hot laps, I would have done it many years ago.

Let me know if you have any questions about the Bondurant school.

Cheers,
George

 

[TowDawg]

Did you do the Grand Prix Road Racing Course? It sounds fun and like the idea being in higher HP rear drive car. I just wish it was closer to me. I check Road Atlanta, but they run Mazdas and I'm not what else is within a reasonable distance from me. I'll have to start looking around.

 

[AZTVR]

Did you do the Grand Prix Road Racing Course? It sounds fun and like the idea being in higher HP rear drive car.

Same question here. The school is so close to me that I have no excuse other than I am cheap and have been thinking that I don't need that level of training for what I am doing (just out having a great time.) However, I also know that I have a lot I''d like to learn from people who know the "right" way to do this hobby.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

You're tracking, not racing wheel to wheel so depending on the club the uber safety stuff typically does not apply. Put on a helmet and get out there.