Am I the only person that think the "supercar Challenge" was a joke?

[FastMatt]

Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

the only fast car in the test was a Sonoma??!!

just some highlights

Comptech blown NSX $155,000 and 13.0@115mph?

TNT 555 viper $117,000 and 12.6@124mph??? (hell my STOCK 2000 ACR ran 12.44@117mph at 3600ft!!!)

Mallett 434cid blown C5 corvette $139,000 and 12.8@121!!??? (what the ?)

Apex Lethal 750 $146,000 11.8@124??? (ok something is wrong here!, how the hell can this be?)

HMS TT 800 Viper $173,000 12.4@134 (at least there is some MPH there)

AutoThority Stage 5 996 TT $211,000!! 11.8@129 (aaaaa ok 11.8? this thing is AWD right? I can and have run 11.7X in a AWD Stealth with less then $5k in bolt on's)

 

[Tiepilot]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

WOW, really cool super expensive cars that post close to STOCK runs, bad driver? To many ponies to hook, either way I'd be quite about owning one.

I'd rather have a stable of STOCK Vipers for the price of one of those modded cars.

Comptech blown NSX $155,000 and 13.0@115mph?[/B][img]http://vca1.viperclub.org/ubb/smilies/rofl.gif[/img]

 

[bogz]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

Find the other posts about this, and you will see that they ran it on a 1/4 mile strip of a road track, not a prepped strip.

Also, they all took 5 (i think) runs, but only published the numbers from 1 run.

The times cannot be compared to strip times, but rather the times against the others that ran those conditions.

 

[Snake Bitten]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bogz:
Find the other posts about this, and you will see that they ran it on a 1/4 mile strip of a road track, not a prepped strip.

Also, they all took 5 (i think) runs, but only published the numbers from 1 run.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The street ain't a "prepped strip" either...I'm not ripping on the tuners, but for that kind of cash, I would like to out pull a stock viper on the street, with street tires...

Are the published numbers not the BEST of the five runs? And how different would the five runs be, again, for that kind of cash, you'd think consistant performance would be included in the price...and what was an S10 even doing there?

 

[Stiffler]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

I thought the times were lame too, however the S10 was provided by Lingenfelter complete with a twin turbocharged 427.

 

[allanlambo]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

if you go to the car and driver site, and watch each cars little video, youll see that theyre launching technique seemed to be a little on the "weak" side.

 

[Motor City Mad Man]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

Not only was it not a prepped track like you'd run at a drag strip, but they measured the times using a GPS type system. I really would have rather seen the times measured the traditional way rather than using satellites in orbit. The 1/4 mile times were a joke, but in reality if those times were measured at a drag strip they would have been much better.

 

[TOOOFST]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

That must be why I wasn't invited.10sec for $5000.,on slicks.Low 11's on stock pilots all day.Note prices slightly inflated.

 

[bogz]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
The street ain't a "prepped strip" either...I'm not ripping on the tuners, but for that kind of cash, I would like to out pull a stock viper on the street, with street tires...

Are the published numbers not the BEST of the five runs? And how different would the five runs be, again, for that kind of cash, you'd think consistant performance would be included in the price...and what was an S10 even doing there?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, what do you run on the street? Do you have timeslips from the street, or your friend with a stopwatch?

The published numbers, from what i gather, were NOT the best of five runs.

 

[Snake Bitten]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bogz:
Well, what do you run on the street?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It only cost $75K to run a 12.5 sec quarter mile...right off the showroom floor...Alot less if you opt for a used one...I only plan on spending $15K to run low 11's...and that includes my EXTREME POSER mods that aren't even hp related...if that is unrealistic, someone slap me now! (But see TOOOFST previous post first!)

There are plenty of relatively stock vipers running the published numbers...Car and Drivers has published a stock 12.2! The obvious point is that the majority of us were expecting super car numbers, from the super cars...I for one am not impressed

If this is Car and Drivers fault for not supplying the proper facility, then why do the tuners keep appeasing this rag?

 

[Tom Welch]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

How True Toof,

Anyone who has drag raced in depth knows that a typical drag strip starting line surface, if unprepped, is far worse than a stretch of road. Ever notice how your Viper seems to get traction better on local roads than it does sometimes at the track? Reasons;

Drag strips see regular action from RACE CARS..and race cars LEAK. They leak oil, transmission fluid, water, anti-freeze, gasoline, brake fluid, and any other liquid that they carry. Over time these liquids ruin the rubber surface that makes a drag strip work. A drag car works partially because the hot, sticky rubber from its special compound tires stick to the hot, sticky(with traction compound) rubbery surface of the track. That surface is carefully constructed and must be maintained in order to provide traction.

Your "Z" rated tires will NEVER get optimum traction on a drag strip as the surface is not designed for hard sidewall, hard compound tires.

In a nutshell, that stretch of road that they ran on probably was as good or better than running stock radial tires on a non-prepped drag strip. What I look at in these tests is the MPH of the vehicles. Horespower can be derived from the MPH readout of a 1/4 mile acceleration test if you know the vehicle weight with driver. A power to weight ratio is mathematically computed and a matrix of these ratios can be found in most chassis builder manuals where the user can plug in their MPH and weight and find their HP(or if one is looking for a target mph, he can plug in Hp or forcasted vehicle weight...etc.)

Just My $ 0.02, flame suit donned.


Tom
Http://btrviper.com

1997 GTS BTR 750 SS "PLUS" 10.teens at 142+ MPH

 

[LTHL VPR]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

You bring up some great points and questions. I thought we had covered most of these good questions last week. For the sake of the questions, I will use the data from our car for the comparison. For those of you who missed them, here's a recap, plus some other great data I have compiled for our Viper in the event:

1) PERFORMANCE
The numbers quoted in the magazine reflect only 1 run; the fastest overall run for the event. Whatever your times were for this particular run, were the ones quoted. Although this run (#4 of 5) proved to be the fastest overall time, it was our slowest 1/4 mile time (the driver missed a shift). The times were tested at MIS (Mich. Int'l Speedway); 1/4 mile marked with a cone, not a true dragstrip, and times were measured with GPS satellite devices(not the same used at the strip). It does not necessarily represent the best individual segments (0-60,1/4mile, etc.). For example: In our case, our best overall time for the course unfortunately was our lowest 1/4 time b/c the driver missed the 3rd-4th shift. However it proved to be our best 0-60 and 0-100 time.
Car & Driver now has the fastest individual segments and detailed specs on each car listed on their web site through 2 main links:
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/comparisontests/2002/september/supercars/0209_sc_challenge_course_map.xml
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/comparisontests/2002/september/supercars/0209_sc_challenge_opener.xml

This provides some valuable information that is DIFFERENT than it appeared in the magazine. It posts each car's BEST overall times for 0-60, 0-100, 1/4 mile, 150-0, etc...

As you will see, the APEX LETHAL 750 earned the following honors of the cars that finished the event:
0-60= 3.6 sec (2nd)
0-100= 7.3 sec (2nd)
1/4 mile= [email protected] (3rd)
150-0= 670 ft (4th)

What is great for the Vipers is that they had a stock 2001 ACR Viper run in the event with the same driver as our LETHAL 750; this makes it a VERY solid comparison.
STOCK ACR (w/ABS):
0-60= 4.4 sec
0-100= 10 sec
1/4 mile= 12.6@117mph
150-0= 776 ft.

So, let's look at the comparison to see how much better the LETHAL 750 (2001 ACR) fared against the STOCK 2001 ACR
0-60= .8 sec faster!
0-100= 2.7 sec faster!
1/4 mile= 1 sec faster and OVER 13+ mph more!
150-0= 106 feet shorter stopping distance!

COMPARED TO THE WINNNER, Lingenfelter, who brought a professional driver, the LETHAL 750 did very well:
LPE 650 TT + water injection= MUCH MORE than 650hp
0-60 4.53 sec. (LETHAL 750= .9 sec faster!)
Best 0-100 8.15 sec. (LETHAL 750= .8 sec faster!)
Best ET 12.29 sec.(LETHAL 750= .7 sec faster!)
Best MPH 132.25 (LPE by 2mph..)
Best 150mph-0mph 673.34 ft.(LETHAL 750 3+ feet shorter!)

Whether the cost is worth it to you is a subjective question; something that only you can answer. To many, it is. However, keep in mind that the performance difference between these 2 cars is MORE SIGNIFICANT than the difference between a Stock Viper and a CAMARO Z28. Again, a noticeable difference.

If you are wondering about our 100-150 time, we did confirm that the driver shifted around 5200rpms; hence the final 20mph was pulled in 5th gear, compared to the other Vipers that shifted into 5th around 145 mph and only pulled 5mph in 5th. Accounts for a significantly slower time (probably lost a couple of seconds here..thought this might clarify some questions as well)

2) PRICE They also have DETAILED SPECIFICATIONS,COST, etc.. on each car on the website; much more detailed than the magazine. Gives you a chance to see how many upgrades, parts, and the cost of each all the cars came with.
For example our LETHAL 750's price included ALL the features/upgrades the car had at the test. We had non performance items like the stereo/entertainment system, full leather interior, and front fascia that tacked on another $16k to the overall price of the car (in case you were wondering). In addition, we got docked $10k b/c we brought an ACR. For the performance-minded enthusiasts, take off about $26k from the price listed in the mag. and you will get a better idea for the total cost of a car with the package and options

APEX LETHAL 750 specs: http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/comparisontest s/2002/september/supercars/0209_sc_challenge_6th_specs.xml

3) Given the variables, we were happy with the results. If my memory serves me correctly, TNT's car was making around 580rwhp, HMS's was around 800rwhp, and ours was around 650rwhp. If you look at speeds, the increase in mph makes sense (Stock Viper @117mph, TNT@124mph, LETHAL 750@130mph, HMS@136mph). Based upon the times that the LPE and a few other cars ran at a true dragstrip prior to the C&D event, it seems that the 1/4 mile speeds at the C&D event were about 4-7mph slower than a dragstrip time.


4) DRIVERWe used a Car and Driver editor; most other tuners brought professionals.


5)COMPETITION/SUPERCAR CHALLENGE
The point of this competition was for each tuner to bring a car and compete AGAINST each other; not against other times from various drag strips with different conditions and vastly different variables. Tuners compete on the same track; the same day, with the same conditions and variables. These times should not be compared to drag strip times with street tires, drag radials, or slicks. Why? The cars were not tested on a drag strip, but on an oval racetrack with satellite positioning devices that extrapolate information into distance,velocity, etc..; far different from the devices and equipment used at a dragstrip. Perhaps some exaggerated examples may make some sense of this:
If an ALMS race runs in the rain and everyone gets slow lap times, does that mean that the race is pointless? Maybe someone could have achieved better times at some other time with other conditions. It doesn't necessarily mean that they could have obtained those same times under the SAME conditions and measuring equipment.
What about a round of golf: If Tiger Woods ends the day with a round of 78 due to wind and weather, and you shoot a better score on a different course on another day, is he a bad golfer? Of course not. You have to compare apples to apples.
Does this make sense?

I think everyone's questions and concerns were warranted. I hope I help to clarify and answer these questions.
Happy Vipering!!!
Regards,
Wayne (LTHL VPR)

 

[ElDiablo Viper]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

This whole thing was BS. They gave 5 sec penalty for the Viper being too loud.

 

[CNTW84U]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

Way to go Wayne! Simply put, easy to understand!
LETHAL 650
Bob

 

[TOOOFST]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

Why didn't all of you test and tuners agree to omit the disrespectfull 1/4 mile times?It doesn't do justice to the genius work you do.Top Gun Tommy BTR said it simply,MPH tells all.
Easy for me to say,Never missed a pitch from the bench!

 

[Russ M]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

Out of all the vipers at that test by far the most impressive was the HMS. Although not being a big fan of John, because of his business dealings he can build his vipers. The only number out of the whole test that really counts is the time around track and his by far beat all the other vipers.

Now if HMS would put on the stop tech break kit, and shorten that stopping distance, they could have taken the #1 spot without a problem.

The drag racing times were a joke, but all these cars were on RADIALS and on a poor surface. In other words an advertisement for LPE, who happen to bring out his All wheel drive truck to a supper car challenge? What is up with that? Who wants to see a Chevy s10 in a super car article. For that matter even his vettes don't belong in there.

Lets see if a corvette and s10 are considered supercars than why not a supra/skyline/3000gt/integra/civic/mustang/Cadillac STS, etc..... All these cars can be made to be very fast, but far from supper cars which in my mind must posses the looks/power/mystique/etc..

LPE, why not bring your viper to the test?

 

[HouseofSpeed]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

Wayne...I appreciate your marketing thrust, but are you really that impressed by your car???? It seems that you guys want the Viper world to jump on your wagon....but isn't it a little soon? I mean Bill and his crew were cranking out Mustangs for a living this time last year..and all of a sudden we transition into performance central for Viperdom....

I mean a 550 inch engine that puts down 650 doesn't do a whole lot for me personally. There are 400 inch LS1s that make 550 to the tire with ease.....A displacement increase of 150 CI in this example should warrant more than a 100 WHP jump. Lose the screens and the Fast and Furious **** package....bring us something with a set of nuts. It would appear that you guys are on the verge of a nice setup...continue to refine that and don't get caught up in the hoorah of the C&D accolades.

I will say that Apex made a very nice showing for their first time out....and the overall performance of the Lethal package seemed to be suited for the BS test that C&D setup.

If I told you that a 500 inch Viper is just around the corner that will make 675 to the tire on pump gas...would you be intrigued????? Stay tuned...and it won't be from the "big" names mentioned here.

The LPE cars are not to be slighted...but the "average" LPE car is not what we have seen on TV or in the magazines, am I right John P.??? Surely you wouldn't assert that your car is a carbon copy in terms of "tweaking" to that of the average LPE customer...would you? Is alcohol/water injection standard on the LPE TT? Definitely a good idea...but thats the only one I have seen with it. I think that Steve D.'s car is not the norm either....no doubt a wickedly fast car, but not the run of the mill...correct?

I say take the frickin' gloves off and bring something to the show that makes enough power to alter the rotation of the Earth and knock the moon off its orbit. Who gives a **** about the EPA when we are talking about a true show of force.

I am sure that many will find this narrative abrasive...but such is the nature of the game. The key is to enjoy these "shootouts" for their entertainment value (kinda like "Pro" wrestling), but don't put too much stock in what is reported...at the end of the day, they are just trying to sell copy.


Looking forward to the competition at VOI.

 

[Eddie N]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HouseofSpeed:
Wayne...I appreciate your marketing thrust, but are you really that impressed by your car???? It seems that you guys want the Viper world to jump on your wagon....but isn't it a little soon? I mean Bill and his crew were cranking out Mustangs for a living this time last year..and all of a sudden we transition into performance central for Viperdom....

I mean a 550 inch engine that puts down 650 doesn't do a whole lot for me personally. There are 400 inch LS1s that make 550 to the tire with ease.....A displacement increase of 150 CI in this example should warrant more than a 100 WHP jump. Lose the screens and the Fast and Furious **** package....bring us something with a set of nuts. It would appear that you guys are on the verge of a nice setup...continue to refine that and don't get caught up in the hoorah of the C&D accolades.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what was that noise? it sounded kinda like someone throwing down a gauntlet!

- eddie -

 

[treynor]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

I have no opinion about the relative tuning effort which goes into competition cars vs customer cars at any tuner (because I have no data points). However, I'm certainly with Kyle that I look forward to the VOI7 drags as an opportunity for all the horsepower tuners to "strut their stuff" in a standard, well-understood, fair venue.

Kyle, if you guys can get 675 RWHP N/A without going to a stroker crank, and without completely sacrificing midrange, I'll be very impressed. I look forward to hearing more when you choose to tell it. I take it you'll be bringing something to VOI?

APEX -- how about it, guys? I think Ted's still got room in his trailer for an overachieving yellow ACR if you guys are game?

 

[LTHL VPR]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

I did not intend my post to be taken as threatening to any of the other competitors, offensive, or a challenge to others. The purpose of my post was to help explain to others how the testing was performed, how it may have adversely effected times, and the objective of the event. I apologize if it came across any differently.

All of the cars present were well built; hell only a couple were not able to finish the event compared to most of them the year before. No question about it, the LPE car ran strong (as expected) and deserved to win. Since this is a Viper board, and people were questioning the Vipers' performances, I thought it would be helpful to point out how our car fared against the winners and the stockers (baseline).

Kyle- I am not what I said that possibly could have offended you in any way, no harm intended...in answer to your questions...Yes, we are proud of our Viper's performance. It ranked 'tops' in drivability, gave a solid performance, and finished the competition. Could we have made more power? You betcha. But was that our goal??? We rank drivability and emissions at the top of our priority list for our packages. We also take pride in average horsepower and torque as opposed to peak numbers that others seem to market. Having at least/over 700ftlbs torque from 2500-5500 rpms is something that was important to us. In addition, our car passed tough CA emission standards. Not sure whether other tuners worry about this.

As I have mentioned to the board a couple times over the last few weeks, we are finishing the development of a 'MORE LETHAL' LETHAL 750 package. It will make more power. It probably will not pass emissions, but it will retain great drivability. However, we also pride ourselves of the fact that we don't just pour in power making parts without addressing other issues that may limit drivability and longevity. As a result, the LETHAL 750+ package will showcase a number of parts to increase the strength and maximize the reliability of the engine.

Kyle, I respect your abilities, talents and contributions to the Viper world. Very solid work. I am not sure where you received your information about APEX's past experience with Vipers, but I feel obliged to reply that this is not correct. It is true that APEX was not marketing to the VCA board and the Viper world much before a couple of years ago, however; don't take this to mean that they were not working on Vipers. Even dating back to 1995, our lead mechanic had installed a complete heads, intake, cam, TB, etc.,etc.. package on an RT/10. He has been working on them ever since. We do also have a very loyal Mustang following and this does represent a big part of our business. With a team of 7, we can handle all types of projects, R&D, etc..

We hope we can continue to push the envelope of Viper performance for the Viper world. The LETHAL 750 certainly proved that we can make great improvements in performance on engine alone. As a tuner, we constantly walk the line of maximizing performance into a package that a customer wants. We know we can make gobs more power, but if the car has subpar drivability including hanging idles, hard time starting, too little vacuum causing poor brake performance and surging under cruise conditions, then we have failed in our objectives, and have done nothing more than create something that no one will be happy with in the long run.


Thanks for everyone's support.
-Wayne (LTHL VPR)

 

[Mike Brunton]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

I wonder how many people posting on this thread have OWNED any really high performance big-inch cars?

I've had an LPE car and I've experienced the cars of quite a few tuners. It's easy to get big numbers and post the dyno runs all over the Internet. Ever notice how many of these tuner cars are for sale shortly after the works is done? Or notice that they don't get driven very much?

A guy I work with wanted his Vette worked over. LPE was too expensive for his taste, so we went with "another famous tuner". Yeah, he saved $10k off LPE's price, but the car *****. It's fast, but the thing shakes like a wet dog at idle. The cam is beyond wild. I'm sure he loves driving on the street with his 1,500RPM idle and rock solid on-or-off clutch. The deafening exhaust and added weight probably make the car a dream to cruise in too.

My old LPE car was like a stock ride.... only blindingly fast. I have heard the same of Doug Levin's stuff. I have heard the same of the Apex car (and didn't I just read they got #1 in driveability?).

So many people are saying their piece in this thread... here's mine:

First, DON'T compare these times to 1/4 track times. THIS WAS NOT A DRAG STRIP! The MPH and ET results were dubious at best, and they can ONLY be compared to one another IN THIS TEST. I would pity the guy who says "they ran a 12.6? Hell I ran 12.4 in my stock car". If you think you would stand a chance in a race against any of these cars.... uhh, tint your windows cuz you won't want to be showing your face after that race.

Second, big numbers are nice, but after that first 10 minutes in your new big-number car, driveability is the first thing on your mind. Most of the folks pushing the major numbers are doing it with cars that most folks wouldn't want to drive for more than 5 minutes. Some folks ego is such that they will put up with bad driveability to say that they have the fastest car... I pity those guys. Being able to DRIVE your car is the key to ENJOYING it. LPE has always been the KING of making fast cars that you can actually drive. If Apex got the nod on driveability, it would absolutely make me go check them out on that fact alone.

Third, you need a balanced package. There's a ton of folks who will sell a NOS kit that will give you stock driveability but awesome track times. If you take it to the next level and start ripping into the motor, you need something balanced. If your 1 billion horsepower car sits and spins all day, or is nose heavy and gets no traction, or requires legs like Schwartzenegger to operate the clutch, it will get old quick. LPE always offers very balanced cars... I know Levin does too and sounds like Apex does too. Maybe the other guys also do? I dunno... but to anyone with stars in their eyes drooling over this package or that package, you better go get a drive in one before you lay down that cash, or you might be the next guy selling his car with the SeaBass 7000 package that delivers more horsepower than the space shuttle... except you'll hate driving the **** thing.

 

[Jerry Dobson]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

Wayne,

Good post you you provided the information.

Some just get worked up too easily.

 

[Marc Lublin]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

No offense Wayne, you have always been very helpful to me and on this board, but didn't you post this 7/01?


From:
Registered: Oct 2000
&lt;http://vca1.viperclub.org/ubb/icons/icon1.gif&gt; posted 07-13-2001 05:47 PM &lt;http://vca1.viperclub.org/cgi-bin/ubb-cgi/UBonline.cgi?name=LTHL+VPR&random=3264481&gt;

Back to the top [IP Logged]
I am planning to do heads, intake, rockers, and TBs; all of which can be done with the engine in the car. I am debating whether or not to do a cam as well. I think the only way to do this requires engine removal. I assume this would add considerable time to the installation.
Any thoughts? Is it worth the trouble?
Thanks!

 

[LTHL VPR]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

Marc-
You are correct. This was a post I made in July 2001; just a couple months before I joined APEX in late August/Sept. 2001. Bill started APEX several years prior and has had some of the same mechanics since the beginning. Our lead mechanic, Vince, worked at another shop for many years before coming to APEX; his Viper experience began before APEX (BA). After APEX (AA)he has been able to concentrate on Vipers much more frequently and leads our R&D efforts with Bill and I. I am no mechanic, never claimed to be. I have learned a ton from APEX over the last year, and tried to absorb everything like a sponge.....I guess having your engine in and out more than 5 times in the last year(as is the case for my 2001 ACR during our R&D); it's amazing what I was able to learn.
Thanks for the clarification.
-Wayne

 

[HouseofSpeed]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

Wayne...don't mistake the tone of my post...no anger or animosity toward you guys. I am just making an observation in relation to the information you have presented SEVERAL times now. As I mentioned, I think the Lethal package has merit...but don't rest on your laurels. Too often a small amount of success at the outset of a project will dull future efforts to improve upon the concept.

I welcome competition..it makes us all better. I am also a proponent of making the most power with the highest level of street manners. When I started working on Vipers, it seemed as though the people modifying them were stuck in the 60's as far as performance ideas and technology. Cam profiles that were completely wrong for the application...archaic valvetrain components for an engine that doesn't really see an inordinate amount of RPM, etc. I think that the introduction of new players in the Viper market has rapidly increased the quality and potential of the Viper package for the end user...power is my game, but street manners are my number one concern. I don't want a customer to receive the finished product and then want to turn it at the next opportunity because it is not driveable.

Perhaps my info was incorrect on Apex's history...but I know someone told me that Ben Treynor's car was the first car Apex had ever pulled the heads off of...is that a true statement?

No matter, you guys keep working hard and it will make us all better. Look forward to VOI.

 

[Got Venom]

Re: Am I the only person that think the \"supercar Challenge\" was a joke?

Wayne,

Hang in there. You need to watch more Horsepower TV on TNN. You need to put a pinch in your mouth and drool a little more. You're too much of a nice fast talking city guy. Too much information for some to process in one week. Keep up the good work, but don't hide. Bring your car out for more to see and hear. I know it is your baby, but it is a test bed for a business. So if it goes up in smoke, just pop in a new one. Heck with the backlog of orders that you guys have, (obviously making others jealous),you can easily afford another powerplant. Just stay visible, and let the car do the talking. Good luck, and you really should be going to VOI in Nashville, so you can pick up on the "lingo".. ;-)