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Didn't even had a chance to complete two laps at a HPDE event.

Discussion in 'SRT10 and SRT10 Coupe Discussions' started by cash84, May 27, 2012.

  1. cash84

    cash84 Viper Owner

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    I went to a HPDE event today and it rained the first two session. Finally cleared up and got all ready for the third session. I did a build on the engine since last year from engine starvation. Forged internal, cam, etc. After the first lap of warm up and as soon as I started to get into it more and not even the complete second lap I saw fluids on my windshield. I slowed down abit and then just did one more quick pull and started smoking. Pulled in right away. Got out and popped the hood and power steering fluid ALL OVER!

    I did upgrade the stock radiator fan to electric fans from the 08 and up with a aftermarket fan control module. So I elminated the lines that went to the fan. I used teflon stainless braided line from the pump to the rack. I thought it popped off. I actually wish it was the problem. The two two hard lines that is on the rack, one was leaking from the fitting. Took off the line, it had a crack on the flare. After a run to a parts store, finding out that its not like any other brake line. It looks to be a flat flare instead of a inverted flare that is used on the brake lines. Even the fitting is different size. I try to flare it and it seems to fix it but found out that the other hardline leaked. Not sure if it was from me bumping trying to get to the other line or it did crack at the same time on the track. I called it quits after that.

    I did enough driving on the streets that this should have happen than. I assume with enough vibration from the car shaking could cause this? I was going to see if I can use Telfon stainless braided line if I can find the correct fitting to use.

    My question here is, has this happen to anyone else?
     
  2. Allan

    Allan Enthusiast

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    I lost a steering line on the track once. Same deal, half way into second lap. I live 150 miles from the track and don't trailer the car. Managed to make it home without a tow truck. We are both very lucky not to have had a fire underhood. (the ps fluid goes all over the hot exhaust) Mine blew the O-ring out of the fitting at the pump. -sucked. I would like to convert to the electric fan set up as well, how much hassle was that? ...........Apparently driving on the street and the track are two different things, not just for us, but the cars also.
     
  3. Viper Specialty

    Viper Specialty Viper Owner

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    As I have said before, (not sure if it was to you) but put that hydraulic fan module back in the car. Those electric fans cannot come close to a hydraulic module, and this would eliminate your current hassle by default.

    If everyone understood the gigantic list of benefits to a hydraulic cooling module, they would think twice. Not the least of these is the immense CFM's that no Electric fan could touch in a size that fits in the Viper. An electric module cannot transfer nearly as much power for its weight/size as a hydraulic module can- and those modules are only cycled near 60% Duty from the factory! Think about that; the Gen-3 cooling system is only working at about half capacity to keep your car cool, and Gen-3's have virtually ZERO cooling problems.

    Do not confuse a few defective power steering lines or O-rings with an actual inherent design problem. Those problems would have occurred with or without the fan motor being in the system- you need a pressure line and pump fitting in either case.

    The only change I do advise for Gen-3 cars is to add a fluid filter on the return lines, and flush the PS every 3 years or so minimum.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2012
  4. cash84

    cash84 Viper Owner

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    It's not much of a hassle just the fittings to get to run a -6AN Teflon hose, PITA! no fittings I could find. I had to turn one fitting to make it seal on the rack and well a -6AN on the pump fitting then its all good. Get an 08+ fan and an dual control module to run both fans. The secondary turns on 10 degree hotter after the first one is set. I have it set roughly 175F. On a 90 degree day, I still see it runs 160 cruising and about 180-195 in the city.
     
  5. cash84

    cash84 Viper Owner

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    No, you have not told me. I have to disagree with you. These pumps are junk. I already went through one and another viper owner I know went through two, on top of how many been replaced I've seen on here. These are suppose to help keep our engine cool, once they fail are are screwed if its a hot day.

    If it work so much better, why didn't the SRT engineer kept it on the gen 4? Well, they are dual fans unlike the gen 1 and 2 has a single fan which I can see why they have cooling issues.
     
  6. Viper Specialty

    Viper Specialty Viper Owner

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    There was a bad run of pumps/hoses/fan modules, some of them recall cars, most of them 03's and 06's from what I have seen, and MANY of them with contaminated /incorrect fluids- (The 04-06 cars DO NOT USE PS Fluid! They use ATF4! and even 03's should have this changed out!) Most of the problems stem from system contamination one way or the other, and MANY of those failures can be attributed to that, and that alone. I have seen three main failures:

    -Leaking Hoses/O-Rings [bad run/install error]
    -Bad Pump stemming from a broken shaft [manufacturing defect]
    -Bad Components stemming from new contamination, recall related, or cross contamination

    The first two issues are simple fix and be done issues. As long as you dont introduce new contamination, the car will be fine. The last issue, is where all the fuss is from. These are the systems that have multiple fluids in them, or are full of material that either started from a bad pump, recall, or botched repair, and in many cases where everything is not cleaned out, just repeats itself again and again. But if you fix it right, it will be fine.

    The problem is that once you have a failure, you tend to have more. This is because of hacker mechanics and shops that don't clean the old system out, put it together incorrectly or with incorrect fluids, or worst yet, only replace the damaged part and ignore the rest of the system that is now full of metallic material. [Hence, a filter system that helps prevent this] A power steering pump is operating whether or not that fan is cycling or even attached to it, and you have not eliminated much collateral in reality.

    We push these fan systems harder than you can imagine with some of the race cars, the TT/SC cars, and customer requests on Fan Duty changes- and they have been rock-solid reliable. So far as performance and function, the scale tips heavily towards the hydraulic fan motors. A hydraulic fan motor which is the size of the Viper's would be in the multiple horsepower range. Do you know how big an electric fan motor would be at 12V to get in that range? Just think about how big even the 110 and 220V electric motors are that generate 1+ horsepower. A Hydraulic Fan is a mechanical device, and does not undergo the huge losses associated with changing energy states such as mechanical>electrical>mechanical. It can take driving force directly from the engine, very efficiently convert mechanical energy into fluid pressure [a form of mechanical energy as well], and immediately back to mechanical energy again driving the fan blades. Hydraulic fan motors make immense amounts of torque, and can run a very aggressive fan blade pitch. Quite simply put, there is no electric fan [that can be put in a Viper] that can do what a hydraulic fan of equal size can do.

    There is nothing out of the ordinary about these systems. The fact is, that just about every single peice of heavy equipment on earth is cooled by a hydraulic module. Lexus/Toyota use it. Jeep used it. The Viper used it. The aftermarket uses them.

    Why did the engineers change it? Well, that's easy: COST. That hydraulic system is just a tad more complex and expensive than its electric counterpart. You could probably buy 5:1 on cost alone. If they could meet the needs with Electric, then surely they would go that route. The fact remains, if you have a properly working 2003-2006 fan system, then the 2008+ system is not an upgrade at all. In fact, I have spec'd ADDING the Hydraulic system to certain builds because of its capabilities. Hands down, if I need to cool a car down in the worst conditions possible: Hydraulic, all the way.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2012
  7. Allan

    Allan Enthusiast

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    Thank's for the in-depth rap on the hydro fan assy. -I'm leaving it in the car.
     
  8. JoelW

    JoelW Enthusiast

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    I am curious about the best way to flush the system. I got a back up unit and have changed the fluid but I would like to "purge" all the old fluid again. My car is an '03 and I have had no issues but I'd like to keep it that way. Can I take a line off and keep adding clean fluid or is there a better way? Thanks!
     
  9. Viper Specialty

    Viper Specialty Viper Owner

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    Unfortunately, its not so easy. The best method is to drain as much of the system as possible. Suck the reservoir dry, pull off the rubber return lines where you can get to them easily and let drain, remove the cooler and drain/flush, etc. Do not however remove the pressure lines- not worth the hassle and risk. Put all the lines back on and top off the reservoir with Mopar PS-ATF+4, and start the engine, running for 10 seconds or so. Stop the engine, and top off reservoir again, and repeat until the level stops dropping. Then move onto letting it run, and cycling the steering back and forth a few times, and re-check. The system will be frothy with air while doing this, it was dissipate as it bleeds out of the system. After the system is "full", you should suck the reservoir dry, and refill/run at least a few more times- but you don't have to repeat all of this as there won't be any new air in the system, just top-off, run, cycle steering, and empty/replace/repeat. If you are changing from 03 PS fluid to ATF+4, do this at LEAST 5 times, or until the fluid coming out looks exactly like the new fluid going in... and then a few times after that for safety.

    Once the system is flushed, future maintenance is just simply drain/fill the reservoir 3 times every few years, and optionally drain/flush the cooler. I do recommend putting a filter in the system before the cooler however, it can save the cooler hassle and keep the system clean.
     
  10. Viper X

    Viper X Former VCA National President VCA Member

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    As Daniel says, the hyraulic fan moves much more air and works much better than the twin electric fans at cooling the engine on a hot day at the track.

    I currently run an 09 ACR on the track and have had to take some extra precautions to keep it cool on warm days and it will still run hotter than my Gen III.

    I wish I knew how to adjust the electric fans in my 09 ACR to turn on sooner.


    I ran a Gen III coupe for a while and never had any cooling issues.

    I would not recommend switching to electric fans if you track your Gen III.

    Dan
     
  11. cowger

    cowger Viper Owner

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    Dan, what do you recommend in terms the actual filter to use?

    Thanks!
    Bryan
     

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