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Future buyer here. What is current fair market value for 96 GTS

Discussion in 'RT/10 and GTS Discussions' started by GeeTeeSSS, Apr 25, 2021.

  1. GeeTeeSSS

    GeeTeeSSS Enthusiast

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    Hello fellow forumites.
    First wanted to introduce myself before I pick your brains to assist with adding a Viper to my garage at some point in the future.
    To be honest, I've traditionally been a JDM fan boi however I did briefly own a locally produced muscle car over 15 years ago which was fun.
    I've been following the Viper (mostly the GTS) for approx 5+ years and love many things about them. Perhaps it's most endearing feature however is it's distinct lack of pretentiousness and the solid middle finger it extends to modern, electronically aided sports cars.

    Anyway, to my question.
    With Lee Iacocca's car fetching a price that grants you access to the looney bin recently along with two BAT listing for the Saphire Blue/cognac and a 400 mile FE that both went or over $120K, I'm curious to know what one "should" pay for a 96?
    At present, there are a number of sellers wanting anywhere between $84K to $110K for low mile examples (between 12K & 6K miles respectively) and I suspect these may be garage queen dreamers however I'm open to be proven wrong.
    Haggery's has them valued somewhere between $86K for a concourse edition (however I wouldn't class any of these samples in this category) down to $38K for a pretty tired example (maybe salvage title with very high miles). TBH I think they days of seeing a $38K example are past us.
    Lets say I'm after a middle of the road, with 15K - 20K miles, clean title and good documented history. What value might one put on this type of car?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. redtanrt10

    redtanrt10 Enthusiast

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    Today, $60K, plus for as you say, with 15K - 20K miles, clean title and good documented history. 6 months from now, more!!
     
  3. GeeTeeSSS

    GeeTeeSSS Enthusiast

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    Thanks so much for the response.
    I agree that they are finally starting to rise in price so the value will change in the future. I feel however that many of these current sellers are trying to sell at "future" prices so it will be interesting to see how long they sit for.
     
  4. BYAIC

    BYAIC Enthusiast

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    I had lunch with my daughter Saturday. Driving home we were stuck in stop and go traffic because of a flashing red light at a major intersection, which turned out to be a good thing as I glanced to my left and saw a Gen II with its driver waving to me, of course my heart beat a little faster and I immediately waved back and honked my horn. My daughter asked me who that was, of course I don’t know but I told her that was a Viper, a Gen II, and that now it will be another 5-7 years before I see another one. These cars are literally that rare.

    I really dislike this thread. I’ve seen others where people post that they want to buy some ultra rare version of Viper and it’s just ridiculous. But this thread is basically bitching about the value of an almost impossible to find car, believing that they are overvalued. I don’t think that is the case at all. If you want one, go buy it. Pay the price, that’s the only way you will buy one. In this case you want the very first GTS Edition, a very rare car. But by now those cars are in the hands of people who know what they have and they won’t just dump them. In fact, you are only able to find two that are actually for sale - given that it’s safe to say that they are indeed worth at minimum $80,000.00 PLUS.

    Not sure how you went from turbo charged ricers to a ‘96 GTS.
     
  5. MoparMap

    MoparMap VCA National President Venom Member

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    A gen 2 over 40K just feels crazy to me, but that's because of what else you can get for that kind of money. I guess I've never really been in the "low mileage" circles though. I bought my gen 3 with ~40,000 miles on it and have 125,000+ on it now and it still runs great, but I also knew I was going to be daily driving it so I didn't have a problem with a car with mileage on it. I said this in a previous thread, but do the math on age and mileage and think about it for a second. A 96 is a 25 year old car. Anything under 25000 miles is going to mean less than 1000 miles a year on average. Don't know about others, but I get about 250-300 miles on a tank of gas, so that's at least a few tanks a year. Start looking at the really low mileage cars like <10k and you are quickly getting to the point of not even going through a tank of gas a year, which to me is just asking for trouble if you want to drive and enjoy it at least. Granted the miles may not have been put on consistently, so could have been the first owner never touched it and the next guy did 10,000 miles in a year or the other way around.

    If I was going to spend $60k on a Viper that's easily in gen 4 territory and would get you a way superior vehicle, though I realize everyone wants their cars for different reasons. Just something to think about though.
     
  6. Peter Kater

    Peter Kater Enthusiast

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    MoparMap, I need to repeat some of your last words you wrote : "everyone wants their cars for different reasons".
    Indeed. Indeed.
    A 96' GTS with x-miles is definitely going to be in gen4 territory with the same or even inferior mileage.
    But the point here is that a Gen2 GTS is a legend which (among other races) won 3 times the 24H of Le Mans, hence the prices rising. It is a CLASSIC. it is ANALOG. which you cannot say about a Gen4... Although a tremendous Viper, not to mention the razorblade sharp Gen5.
    Add some additional data / variables to the "value equation" : there is discussion about a new 2022 Viper, with 8 cylinders and blablabla...
    The question isn't anymore : will it sell?
    Of course some will love it and some will hate it (mainly based on the fact that Viper means "10 cylinders") but in the end of the day, digging up the Viper name (again) from its 2017 graveyard means waking up interest about previous models!
    In short, classics as Gen2 (first), gen1 (second, because difficult to live with in the "everyday world"...) and then gen3 and 4, followed by the amazing Gen5 (with its price range, as stratospheric as its performances).
    In short, if YOU are in for a Viper, think like this:
    - what model?
    - what price range?
    - what miles? (very much linked to the bullet point above)
    - what if I find a gorgeous model?! Am I ready to get out of my budget 5%? 10%? 20%?
    - what will be the use of it? (speculate? Daily drive? Weekend drive? Etc..)
    The worst you can do is follow your dream for so many years without jumping in and buying anything. If you do that (passively observe without buying) two things will happen 1) you will build a serious Viper market knowledge 2) the chances you might actually buy one will get lower everyday and converge downwards to ZERO.
    Thinking is good. But in life, thinking is not everything, there is also passion.
    And this my friend, is where all Vipers come to play!
    Cheers :usa2:
     
  7. GeeTeeSSS

    GeeTeeSSS Enthusiast

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    Thank you BYAIC for taking the time to respond. I'm disappointed you dislike this thread however I asked the question and expected to get a varying range of answers.
    Some car collectors wouldn't consider a production run of 1166 examples to be "ultra rare". Granted some have gone to god via the absence of modern driver aids however many are prob still with us today.
    If you re-read my post, you'll see that I offered my opinion and quote "I suspect these may be garage queen dreamers however I'm open to be proven wrong". If that is the going rate for a car, then that is what I guess I'll need to pay to get into one however giving someone advice to buy the first car they see advertised just because that's all that is available isn't sound advice.

    Perhaps I am wrong however I'm more inclined to take the advice of an official valuer such as Haggerty's who provide insurance on these cars (and have a business interest in getting it right) than the two sellers trying to get the most money for their cars. Haggerty's valuation contradicts these two cars sellers valuation.
    As for your closing swipe at my taste in cars, again, re-read my post and you'll see that I've owned many varied and different vehicles over the years (20+) and can appreciate all type of models. The same cannot be said perhaps for all owners but that's life I guess.
     
  8. GeeTeeSSS

    GeeTeeSSS Enthusiast

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    Hey Mopar. Thanks for responding. I have indeed read about your car and its mileage which is awesome. My current daily is a Landcruiser with over 350,000Km's and it too runs like a top.
    TBH, I'm not really looking for super low miles and maybe I should be raising the min as I want something that I can drive and enjoy without being paranoid about it losing value.
    Would you recommend one with say more like min 25K would be a better bet?
     
  9. GeeTeeSSS

    GeeTeeSSS Enthusiast

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    I def don't intend on waiting on the sidelines Peter. My country has the 25 year rule about importing cars so I've been waiting patiently for the years to tick over until it was legal to import a GTS.
    I have no doubt given their low manufacturing numbers that I'll have to be flexible on miles, condition, history, price but just wanted members feedback on ballpark numbers so I know what I'm in for.
    edit: grammar
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2021
  10. MoparMap

    MoparMap VCA National President Venom Member

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    Truthfully it really just comes down to how the car was maintained. My mom always wanted a gen 1 and one day several years back there was a used one at a dealer that we went to look at for the heck of it. The car was ROUGH. I don't recall the mileage on it, but I don't think it was huge by any means. I look at my car and while you can definitely see wear and tear on it (driver seat has some rough spots, a little crack here and there on the interior plastics, paint chips all over the front bumper, etc.), I don't think most would assume it has the mileage it does when I wash and detail it. The mechanical bits of the car are in good shape and the corrosion protection on the car is quite impressive as even with all the driving I've done there's barely a speck of rust on anything.

    Low mileage to me just makes me paranoid for a few reasons. The first is how long the car has ever sat at one time. Modern cars take it a little better than old cars, but generally things like seals and fluids really prefer to be used to keep flexible and fresh. That's not to say that a car can't be started every once in a while or taken on a short drive to get up to temp and everything circulating without putting a pile of miles on it. The other reason they make me nervous is just not wanting to beat them up. I'd love a premium example of a car, but I know that I'm going to want to drive it. Already having a few flaws makes it much easier to not worry about any new ones you might add to it yourself. I also have a very different mentality to some people in that I have no problem doing my own work and replacing parts. My thought is that someone made every part and one point in history, so someone is going to be able to make it again by some means. That doesn't mean I'll use and abuse it, but it does mean I'm less worried about something breaking. Sure, NOS parts are going to be better for value, but I'm more concerned with just keeping the car functioning as I never really intend to sell mine, so value is somewhat irrelevant. Maybe 20 years down the road I won't be able to buy an original control arm for the suspension, but if I really wanted to I bet I can find a place that could cast me a new one. I talked to a colleague of mine in Sweden that rebuilds old motorcycles and he was having parts recast and machined by reverse engineering them. Sure it's costly and time consuming, but it means you can keep enjoying your toy that much longer. But, it really comes down to what you want to do with your car and why you want one. I wanted one to drive and enjoy and I bought appropriately. If you want one as an investment and perfect day toy, go for it! I think you can find excellent examples of both 10k mile cars and 40k mile cars.

    That explains a little more about things to me. If you are dead set on a GTS it might make more sense to wait a year or two as hard as that might be. You will most likely pay a premium for a 96 just because it was the first year for the coupe. Not that there aren't still deals out there, but could be something to consider.
     
  11. harley56

    harley56 Enthusiast

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    If you want to see a low mile one go to this listing 44 miles Current bid $100,000 and five days left in auction....go Bringatrailer.com https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1996-dodge-viper-22/
    Bring a trailer has become the place to sell a Viper - you can do a search in the results page by typing in dodge viper and see results for all Vipers that has been sold, or currently on auction.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2021
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  12. USA car guy

    USA car guy Enthusiast

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    I just purchased a 96 GTS in February. I was in the same boat of seeing the cars listed at $85-95k and really feeling like the market wasn’t there yet. For a reality check on pricing, one sold on BAT in the last several months for ~$55k and then popped back up for sale with fresh tires and “paint buff” for ~$85k (People just trying to make a buck). I track cars off of VINs. What I did to get a better bearing on price was collect sales data from BAT and from classics.com. I then charted value vs. mileage and came up with a reasonable guide. A grain of salt with auction based sales of course. I then searched relentlessly and found an original owner one with full service history with 75,000 miles (~3k/year). It was driven pretty consistently through its life and I drive my cars every good weather weekend I can which made this car a good fit for me. It needs some mild/expected restorative work, but in contrast, I looked at a red GTS with 20,000 miles that was total dogged out garbage barely worth half what the guy was asking. Accordingly, make sure you can look over the car in person. Keep your mind open too. I wanted a blue car but didn’t care about the year (96 vs 97) and if I couldn’t find a price in my budget, I was going to go red. Every color is equally fun to drive. Haha. To answer the question that might be on your mind, I paid less than 40k. I think my find was very lucky, but a good DRIVER condition car should be attainable for less than 60k IMO. Good luck my man.
     
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  13. Peter Kater

    Peter Kater Enthusiast

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    Hi GeeTeeSSS,
    What country are you from then?
    Is it (after 25y of age) a total FREE OF TAX / VAT import situation?
    Thanks for commenting / developing.

    I appear to myself to be one of the only crazy persons to purchase a 97' GTS (24y old) from the USA and import it to Europe where I got the "pleasure" of paying 10% Import duties + 21% VAT.. Yep, you read that part correctly!

    What was I gonna do?!
    Wait until the car is 30y old? Certainly not.
    Here in Europe, the zero import tax / VAT starts on cars when they are 30+ years old.
    Nice and easy for my 77' Stingray, but a bit "nutty" for a Gen2 GTS if you ask me...
    Good luck in your Quest GeeTeeSSS :usa2:
    Go get that beast!!!
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
  14. MoparMap

    MoparMap VCA National President Venom Member

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    I've got a 71 Vette, lol. What a small world sometimes. You sound like my European cousin, haha.
     
  15. GeeTeeSSS

    GeeTeeSSS Enthusiast

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    That is really really helpful. Thanks so much... :)
     
  16. GeeTeeSSS

    GeeTeeSSS Enthusiast

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    Like you Peter, we have silly outdated import laws that were originally set up to protect a manufacturing industry that has long since shut down. Seems govt don't like retracting tax laws..
     
  17. mullinspw

    mullinspw Enthusiast

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    The longer one waits for a good deal to come along, the higher the values get.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
  18. GeeTeeSSS

    GeeTeeSSS Enthusiast

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    While I agree this might be the case with some vipers now. It hasn't been the case for quite some time so it does depend.
     
  19. Peter Kater

    Peter Kater Enthusiast

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    Wau! I actually didn't know the reason for such high taxes. Protectionism sure fulfills the "culprit's role" on this one...
    As for retracting obsolete laws, well, why oh why would any government renounce making money?
    After all, governments are living on our money, ain't they?
     
  20. Peter Kater

    Peter Kater Enthusiast

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    Hi MoparMap!
    Well, don't you remember me?
    The topic called "the mileage question" about 9 to 10 months ago?
    You wrote to me about your 71' Vette and also your Dart :)
    So, yes in short I am your European cousin!
    And really appreciate my 97' GTS :usa2:
     
  21. Atari_Prime

    Atari_Prime Enthusiast

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    Value is hard to say. People love to mod Vipers and I am all for making a car your own, that said, it lowers the value. People also love to race these cars, and they should be raced, but that too adds to the list of 'injuries' and general wear. I bought my car with around 17k on the clock at $36k. It is a 98' GTS. Had it a few years now. Values are going up on these, I would guess the value of mine is around $50k now considering all factors. I have no plans to sell it though. I've never cared about the value, and frankly nor should anyone. I just love my car. I doubt I would sell it for $100k even if offered. I would be tempted, as it would help me get some other cars I have had my eye on. But there is something just so special about these cars. They aren't even close to practical, yet they are somehow very reliable. You can't take it anywhere, yet you want to take it everywhere. The car is like using a sledghammer to drive a nail, unnecessary and over the top, but that is also what the world loves about them. I would recommend ignoring any particular color due to rarity, and focus on whether it makes you smile. If it does, and it seems to be in good shape, a well sorted example with relatively low miles should run you between the low $40ks to the high $50ks. Everyone wants the cars they love to have a value to the moon, but if you look around I think you will find plenty of good examples in that range. Avoid dealers where possible, unless they have the car on consignment. Even then, dealers generally have the highest prices and there are no guarantee that their car is any better. If you pick one up, I don't think you'll regret it. Though be sure you are ok with attention, no exaggerating, the car stands out, everywhere it goes. I can't go to the grocery without coming back to my car and finding people looking at it.
     
  22. GeeTeeSSS

    GeeTeeSSS Enthusiast

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    Sadly this is too true.. :(
     
  23. GeeTeeSSS

    GeeTeeSSS Enthusiast

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    Agree with all your points Prime.
    My issues is I reside in a country with outdated import laws that restrict the age of the car to a min of 25+ years so I am limited with arguably the most expensive example GTS right now. It's now looking more and more like I'm going to have to wait by the sidelines and watch them appreciate to a point that it's no longer affordable.... v sad... :(
     
  24. Atari_Prime

    Atari_Prime Enthusiast

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    The critical flaw in the argument above is that you are assuming buyers are looking for either a) a faster car, or b) a higher build quality. Neither have much connection to values of cars in most instances. The value of a car generally only exists in two places, either 1) the historical value of the actual car or the model's place in automotive history, or 2) in mindshare or heartstrings of the audience. Vipers are known mostly for the Gen I and II models. The other models are great in their own ways, but it was those Gen I and II cars that set the stage for the brand. A Gen III, IV, or V car is better almost every way, but don't have as much mindshare. It's the same reason why the Blue GTS commands more money than the other colors. They made a ton of them compared to other colors, so it isn't the rarity of those models that drives the price up. It's the fact that in almost every car magazine test, the blue was featured and became the 'symbol' for the GTS. As a result, that's what everyone wants hence price increase.
     
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