Gen III oiling issues

[ipetrov]

I have definitely not given up on the Gen III platform. Based on information I've gathered mostly from Dan's informative prior posts, here are some pro's and con's (all con's fixable):

Gen III Pro's: Better hydraulic cooling (Gen IV electric); Infinite tunability (possible forced induction upgrades to XXXX whp); Easier bigger cam upgrade/tuning; something about the whole fuel pump not having to be changed to change fuel filter (Gen IV internal fuel filter); direct throttle, less laggy response (although throttle by wire is in fact better if proper mapping is used, too expensive to do on Gen IV).

Gen III Con's: Oil system (fixable with relatively cheap conversion); Cross-over exhaust (easily and cheaply fixable); Intake & heads (fixable by porting or Gen IV / Stryker conversion, could be pricey); Headers (relatively cheaply fixable); rods (fixable); transmission and diff (fixable by conversion, could be pricey).

I'm sure I'm missing a ton of relevant components that are different from Gen III to Gen IV, but the bottom line is: it's cheaper to upgrade a Gen III to Gen IV standards and way beyond, while in the process fixing all Gen IV's con's, than to start with a Gen IV and compensate for all of it's con's (unless 600 whp is considered enough power).

Its all relative, and it can all be fixed. The Gen-3's do have their strong points, and a Gen-3 purchased with a Gen-4 budget can be turned into a monster with no downsides...

 

[swexlin]

Well, this thread really got me thinking.

 

[JAY]

I have definitely not given up on the Gen III platform. Based on information I've gathered mostly from Dan's informative prior posts, here are some pro's and con's (all con's fixable):

Gen III Pro's: Better hydraulic cooling (Gen IV electric); Infinite tunability (possible forced induction upgrades to XXXX whp); Easier bigger cam upgrade/tuning; something about the whole fuel pump not having to be changed to change fuel filter (Gen IV internal fuel filter); direct throttle, less laggy response (although throttle by wire is in fact better if proper mapping is used, too expensive to do on Gen IV).

Gen III Con's: Oil system (fixable with relatively cheap conversion); Cross-over exhaust (easily and cheaply fixable); Intake & heads (fixable by porting or Gen IV / Stryker conversion, could be pricey); Headers (relatively cheaply fixable); rods (fixable); transmission and diff (fixable by conversion, could be pricey).

I'm sure I'm missing a ton of relevant components that are different from Gen III to Gen IV, but the bottom line is: it's cheaper to upgrade a Gen III to Gen IV standards and way beyond, while in the process fixing all Gen IV's con's, than to start with a Gen IV and compensate for all of it's con's (unless 600 whp is considered enough power).

Good Point ! Totally Agree, You could also surpass a Gen 5 in Horsepower

 

[ipetrov]

Found a great thread from '07 where everything is explained in much greater levels of detail:

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/600823-Spun-rod-bearing-at-3-4-pistons?highlight=quarter

In '07 that was less of a problem because of effective factory warranty on most Gen III's. But even with an extended warranty, I'd rather not swap or rebuild an entire engine - too much hassle + quite the ding on resale value (for those that care). Wonder if an upgraded oiling system would actually help resale value, unlike power-adder mods (again, for those that care, I personally don't).

 

[Shandon]

I would sum it up like this. Unless you are a menace to society on your local highways doing 100+ and then standing the car on its nose under hard braking and turns then you will be fine on the street (and if you do that a lot on public roads your a fool). You can beat on the Viper for tens of thousands of miles street driving with no problems. HOWEVER!!! If you plan to even remotely track your car, then Dan's Swing arm pan is worth its weight in gold! I only track mine but when I farted around on the street it never saw the abuse it gets now. Heck just trying to catch "KONZA" in that video at Mid-Ohio is abusive! The guy can drive

 

[Viper X]

I've seen a number of Gen III Viper engines and one Gen IV Viper engine loose oil pressure and fail at the track. I've seen failures in high speed right and left hand turns.

If you are tracking a Gen III and starting to run relatively fast laps, do what Dan suggests, i.e. upgrage your oiling sytem or be prepared to rebuild an engine.

Also, run at least one quart high at the track with the Gen III. I run my Gen IV about 1/2 quart high or just above the "full" line.....no issues yet.

Dan

 

[Mamba52]

I had the same problem. Long left hand turns pressure would drop to 20psi. Installed a comp coup pan and the issue went by by.

 

[NO HEMI]

Hmm , seeing this thread has me thinking, mine is an 06 and when it's up to operating temp it's about 1/4 of the gauge to the left, and after it's moving it's just past the middle, should i be corncerned?

 

[Viper X]

Hmm , seeing this thread has me thinking, mine is an 06 and when it's up to operating temp it's about 1/4 of the gauge to the left, and after it's moving it's just past the middle, should i be corncerned?

What oil are you using?

What "air" temps are you driving in?

Street or track?

Full crankcase or down a bit?

Dan

 

[NO HEMI]

well i don't know how much oil it has, i have to check, i know weather was in the 60's and it is on normal and "spirited driving" too..

 

[JAY]

Updating mine this winter for track days . Using the 08-10 pan set up . Good insurance

 

[ipetrov]

NO HEMI, I think that you may be referring to idling at normal operating temperatures. If that's the case, I think it's normal for 2005 and 2006 cars for the oil gauge to be at 25-30 psi when idling (or no throttle) at normal operating temperature, so as far as I know it should be nothing to worry about. The reason for the lower idling oil pressure being a change in the main bearings (better main bearings) for those models.

By contrast, oil starvation is illustrated in Konza's helpful youtube video in this thread, where even under throttle at long left sweepers, the oil pressure falls to even below the 1/4 mark (potentially to zero). That's a good recipe for blowing an engine. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm still learning myself.

Hmm , seeing this thread has me thinking, mine is an 06 and when it's up to operating temp it's about 1/4 of the gauge to the left, and after it's moving it's just past the middle, should i be corncerned?

 

[NO HEMI]

Thanks ipetrov, i'll change the oil on the viper next week, just to be sure, and will be geting one of those"08 pans in the near future(1st mod!!).

 

[Allan]

You guys are really making me reconsider my "it'll be OK attitude". ....The more seat time I've been having, my lap times have been falling, and planning to step up to Hoosiers next season...............The pan shouldn't be that hard to change.....

 

[shooter_t1]

You guys are really making me reconsider my "it'll be OK attitude". ....The more seat time I've been having, my lap times have been falling, and planning to step up to Hoosiers next season...............The pan shouldn't be that hard to change.....

It's just my opinion but I think your on borrowed time if your still running the stock setup and tracking as much as you post about. I had a Comp Coupe system on my S/C Gen 3 and never had a hiccup when tracking it in Texas. Heatsoak yes, oil problems no

 

[JoelW]

It is not that hard to change (I have a lift) and I wish I had put the aftermarket oil lines on mine at the same time. It took me less than 2 hours to do it and I guess the oil lines would have added another hour at that time. I do have additional piece of mind but I have several sessions at Road Atlanta and never saw that kind of fluctuation in my oil pressure and I was driving as hard as I could - which may not be as hard as some drive. The main thing I worry about is Towdawg running over me... that crazed look in his eyes is pretty scary! It is like he is late to ******* or something?

You guys are really making me reconsider my "it'll be OK attitude". ....The more seat time I've been having, my lap times have been falling, and planning to step up to Hoosiers next season...............The pan shouldn't be that hard to change.....

 

[David Pintaric]

I have a Gen 4 pan and pickup that has been modified to fit a Gen 3 available. We used it on our SCCA STO car and never had issues. I'd see 1.95 Gs in the Carousel at Road America without starvation. If anyone is interested, let me know.

 

[ipetrov]

Thanks David, I'd be all over this if I didn't live in Chicago, having to park the bad boy for the next 4-5 months.

I have a Gen 4 pan and pickup that has been modified to fit a Gen 3 available. We used it on our SCCA STO car and never had issues. I'd see 1.95 Gs in the Carousel at Road America without starvation. If anyone is interested, let me know.

 

[NO HEMI]

David send me a pm for how much are you asking for it. thx.

 

[ipetrov]

One important part of Viper Specialty's earlier comments was that rod bearings (the other Gen III weak link) might also need to be addressed, as they usually are the first victim of the poorly designed oil system. Does anyone know:

i) how hard it is to inspect the rod bearings for oil-starvation cumulative damage? Are we talking open-heart surgery, a simple visual inspection with the pan out, or something in between?
ii) how hard of a job it is replacing rod bearings? I'm pretty sure the cost of parts is very minor. I'm worried about the labor side of things.
iii) if it's true that aftermarket bearings (such as Clevite) are cheaper yet better than OEM?

Thanks in advance for any illuminating input!

 

[Allan]

It's just my opinion but I think your on borrowed time if your still running the stock setup and tracking as much as you post about. I had a Comp Coupe system on my S/C Gen 3 and never had a hiccup when tracking it in Texas. Heatsoak yes, oil problems no

Over 50,000 miles on the car, been tracking since 22,000 miles. Only street driving is the commute to and from the track and to the car wash. Did 17 days this season so far, and 16 last season, 18 season prior........I know thats not a career amount of track days, but it's more than most of my track buddies get. (in Colorado we have a shorter driving season than some places) I must be very lucky with this oil deal, cuz I am not overly nice to the car at the track. Maybe my luck is that there are 5 tracks that I run on in a given season, and none of them have any long high speed sweepers that have the motor close to the rev limiter while the car is pulling over a 'g' in the turn. I don't know what has kept it from blowing up, I don't have trains forming behind me in the corners, so it's not that I'm "safely too slow", I have been changing oil every track day and run a quart over-fill....maybe it's that. I am concerned that if I upgrade to real track tires that my luck will soon run out though.

 

[ViperGeorge]

Listen to Dan!!! I blew the engine in my 06 at Pocono (high speed left hand turns). Put two rods right through the block. Lucky it didn't lock up and throw me into the wall as I was doing over 155 at the time. Had Arrow build me a new engine with forged internals, ATI damper, chrome molly push rods, and swinging oil pickup. But then I sold the car. I wish I hadn't, it was awesome once rebuilt.

 

[shooter_t1]

Over 50,000 miles on the car, been tracking since 22,000 miles. Only street driving is the commute to and from the track and to the car wash. Did 17 days this season so far, and 16 last season, 18 season prior........I know thats not a career amount of track days, but it's more than most of my track buddies get. (in Colorado we have a shorter driving season than some places) I must be very lucky with this oil deal, cuz I am not overly nice to the car at the track. Maybe my luck is that there are 5 tracks that I run on in a given season, and none of them have any long high speed sweepers that have the motor close to the rev limiter while the car is pulling over a 'g' in the turn. I don't know what has kept it from blowing up, I don't have trains forming behind me in the corners, so it's not that I'm "safely too slow", I have been changing oil every track day and run a quart over-fill....maybe it's that. I am concerned that if I upgrade to real track tires that my luck will soon run out though.

I'm not doubting you at all. Hope it didn't come across like that. You are correct in thinking that there is a better chance of failure when you start running slick's.

 

[ipetrov]

BUMP. Sorry to bring back a thread that is beyond exhausted, but I think with our aging, multiple-owner gen 3's and expired warranties this is a very imporant question to keep in mind. With our brittle (especially '04-'06) connecting rods a spun bearing can cause a lot of expensive damage (e.g. hole in block, junked crankshaft) very quickly. We are talking $10k+ Arrow rebuild. Usually the #3 and #4 bearings are the first victims. We can keep being diligent Viper owners: using the correct oil filter (05037836), correct oil, sending oil samples to Blackstone Labs, installing the '08+ swing-arm pick-up and pan, but is this enough preventative maintenance? Some of the cumulative rod bearing wear is apparently caused by the poor design of the pump and oil galleries - cavitation leading to momentary pressure spikes down to 0 psi that we never actually see on the dampened oil pressure gauge.

For peace of mind I would rather have a direct inspection of the rod bearings, particularly #3. How long/expensive of a job is this? Any pictures of bearings that were swapped out before likely going bad?

One important part of Viper Specialty's earlier comments was that rod bearings (the other Gen III weak link) might also need to be addressed, as they usually are the first victim of the poorly designed oil system. Does anyone know:

i) how hard it is to inspect the rod bearings for oil-starvation cumulative damage? Are we talking open-heart surgery, a simple visual inspection with the pan out, or something in between?
ii) how hard of a job it is replacing rod bearings? I'm pretty sure the cost of parts is very minor. I'm worried about the labor side of things.
iii) if it's true that aftermarket bearings (such as Clevite) are cheaper yet better than OEM?

Thanks in advance for any illuminating input!

 

[NO HEMI]

you are making me think that i should build my engine...

 

[Viper Specialty]

BUMP. Sorry to bring back a thread that is beyond exhausted, but I think with our aging, multiple-owner gen 3's and expired warranties this is a very imporant question to keep in mind. With our brittle (especially '04-'06) connecting rods a spun bearing can cause a lot of expensive damage (e.g. hole in block, junked crankshaft) very quickly. We are talking $10k+ Arrow rebuild. Usually the #3 and #4 bearings are the first victims. We can keep being diligent Viper owners: using the correct oil filter (05037836), correct oil, sending oil samples to Blackstone Labs, installing the '08+ swing-arm pick-up and pan, but is this enough preventative maintenance? Some of the cumulative rod bearing wear is apparently caused by the poor design of the pump and oil galleries - cavitation leading to momentary pressure spikes down to 0 psi that we never actually see on the dampened oil pressure gauge.

For peace of mind I would rather have a direct inspection of the rod bearings, particularly #3. How long/expensive of a job is this? Any pictures of bearings that were swapped out before likely going bad?

If you cover the bases and do not track your car, chances are you are good for the life of the engine. If you are a track rat, I highly recommend inspecting and refreshing the engine every ~100 track hours, which is roughly the same interval we refresh our race engines at- one season of USGT-U is roughly 80 hours of racing/time trials/practice.

We do offer this service, and it is reasonably priced to do this when the engine is not actually damaged. Generally, it involves a full tear down and inspection, cleaning, a quick hone, new gaskets/bearings/rings, and back together + any modifications.

If anyone is at all seriously concerned, yank the engine, and we will send a crate and truck to grab it, and make sure you don't have a problem. Yes, its overkill, but for certain customers from full race to heavy hitting weekend warriors, it makes sense. Spin a bearing, and you just spent twice what it costs to inspect it and replace soft parts- and thats a best case scenario.

 

[ipetrov]

NO HEMI, sorry if I made it sound that disappointing. I'm just professionally distorted to always think about worst case scenario first... For the record, my '05 has been my most reliable car out of four so far (zero issues, knock on wood), and such a blast to drive that I'm totally in love with it. I've just been doing some pretty extensive research on these cars' fundamental weak points (unaddressed by prior recalls), and the slightly compromised oiling system has been the only significant repeat offender leading to catastrophic failure. That being said, for the 10-20 blown engines (almost always tracked) I've read about, and the tens of blown engines I haven't, there are thousands of well-functioning, high mileage engines, including many many Paxton'ed ones that are running strong after years of abuse.

Dan, thanks very much for the clarification! Good to know that you offer such a great service package at what seems to be a reasonable rate.

 

[Alnoaimi]

Thank you all for your responses! I will strongly consider the Gen IV oil pan conversion if I decide to get serious about racing the car. Dan, have you seen oil starvation failures that happened during street driving? Also, is Gen III oil starvation an on/off phenomenon (you are either 100% fine or 100% screwed), like the recent 2013 BMW M5/M6 oil pump fiasco, or is it the case that temporary starvation could cause a problem that may not be apparent until some later time?

I lost 2 engines because of oil starvation issue. Im planning to get the Gen 4 oil pan from Viper Specialty as soon as i finish up the car

 

[ipetrov]

Sorry to hear that, sounds awful. It's great that you still haven't given up on the car after two catastrophic failures. This reminds me of another forum member who recently lost two engines on his '06 (the one the car came with, and shortly thereafter the rebuilt one). If you are rebuilding your engine for a second time, please make sure to change your oil cooler with a new one. See below:

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/659064-How-much-oil-for-a-fresh-new-motor?highlight=rebuild

It's really important to get the rebuild perfect, because even a small oversight like keeping the original oil cooler could, god forbid, cost you a third engine. All because of a $100 or so part.

I lost 2 engines because of oil starvation issue. Im planning to get the Gen 4 oil pan from Viper Specialty as soon as i finish up the car

 

[ipetrov]

I'm starting to entertain thoughts on a Gen IV swing arm group buy proposal. Seems like there are enough concerned gen III owners to gather critical mass. Please pm me if interested.