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Discussion in 'RT/10 and GTS Discussions' started by q8_viper, May 3, 2020.
What is the difference between Viper GTS VS ACR Gen 2 ? And is it worth to buy ACR .
Off the top of my head...adjustable shocks, different springs, BBS wheels, OEM 5 point harness(as well as standard 3 point), "ACR" decals & dash plaque, no fog lights, OEM smooth tubes with K& N air filters( claimed 10 more HP in 1999), with A/C and radio deleted...though MOST added them back on order sheet. MSRP about $14,000.00 more for the ACR.
Is the ACR worth the difference? My answer is: "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".
And before you ask...yes, we have both models...and, I don't favor one over the other.
What about the brakes System is it the seam GTS ? Also it can not upgrade until change the Wheels?
Same brakes...which on Gen I and II Vipers were inadequate in my opinion...including the ABS cars.
Viper brakes started to "get serious" on Gen III cars.
One can always upgrade the brakes...which generally includes proper ducting and a few anatomic modifications.
I have a 2000 ACR and I believe you hit all of the points. I've heard that the gearing was shorter but can't find anything to prove that. Do you have any knowledge of that?
I was looking for a GTS years ago when I purchased mine and an ACR came up for sale that was right so I went for it. Given the choice, I would go for the ACR just because of the conversation piece and coolness factor. But like Steve-Indy alluded to, I don't think you'll enjoy one over the other when you're driving or looking at them.
Steve has a good list, only other item unique to a G2 ACR is an Oil filter Adapter that works when you run the A/C.
Figure a 20%, or more price premium between a same year, same color. same mileage ACR and GTS.
The smooth tubes give 10hp at the flywheel and you'd never feel that. The ACR's adjustable coil-overs will make it handle better. The BBS wheels are lighter, but the same stock sizes. The deleted fog lights are worth a 5 lb? weight savings. The 5 point belts look good, but if you really track it on a road course you'd want to use a good 6 point set up instead.
Those BBS wheels go for $4-$5k on the used market and getting harder to find (as you can't buy them anymore from BBS). The stock 5 spokes are readily available and a mint set can be easily be found for $1,000. The BBS wheels are a real pain in the ass to clean.
Why U try, the entire drive-line (motor to rear end) is the same, only difference is the Smooth tubes.
Redtanrt10, you are correct that the ACR has a different oil filter adapter. I do believe you are confused about the A/C. The ACR adapter has a non bypass type set up which allows full filtration at all times.
And the winner is, about $15k. That's the difference. Ta Da! It is what it is. Just find the car you love and drive it. This thing does 0-60 in a few seconds. Built engine. Only $30k invested. You can spend a zillion on a Hell Cat red eye, for what? Bragging rights? On a cruise home from a local car show a few years ago I heard someone say, "that's a hundred thousand dollar car". No it isn't, but that's the illusion. Do I drive over a 100mph every chance I get? Hell yes. Are there Camaros, Challengers and Mustangs that will kick my ass in a quarter mile? Maybe. Guess what? I don't care. I love our Snake. JMHO. Laughing. Buy something and this old thing will probably blow your doors off. Welcome to viper world. Get it and bring it on.
Time to update your profile Carl 2000GTS?????
No, I’m not Carl, but I’ve been mixed up with Carl before. Was in the SoCal club for many years.
Hey Armen, sorry!! Where do you live? Mike
Mike, I'm out in Simi. It's been so long, that I can't remember but I may have bought a spare front wheel from you or Carl for my ACR 12 to 15 years ago. My last event was Charlotte, which I'm sure you recall was when the daggers came out and the Club melted down.
Got it. I didn't make Charlotte but it sure got ugly soon afterward
Great video, very descriptive. As he pointed out earlier ACR's (to mid 2000) had Koni's then the switch to the Dynamatics. the Koni's are better!!
The ACR is a much rougher ride, I prefer the GTS for normal driving. The Konis are crap too, unless you are going fast enough to go directly to jail. Wish Bilstein made a bolt-on set.
yes it was. i changed the original 1100 lb rear springs for 800 lb. much better
Bilstein actually made a prototype set of remote reservoir coil overs (made from billet aluminum) for the Gen 2, but canceled production after Chrysler dropped out of FIA GT/Le Mans and IMSA GT racing programs (with Oreca). I saw the prototypes at the PRI Show in Orlando... I tried to buy them and hoped to find someone to put them into production. Bilstein lost track of the prototypes.
The ACR spring fitment was strange because they were too short for the shock design and were notorious for shock rattling... many tuners like Dan Cragin zip tied the springs to prevent the rattling and the springs from unseating when a car would go over a negative G riser. The springs were also too stiff and would make the suspension very unforgiving... to the point of bouncing cars out of turns. You also needed a kidney belt because the ride was pretty harsh... definitely NOT a daily driver car!
I didn't see any improvements in track lap times with ACR's and the only advantage that I could see with the different shocks was that the oil used in the ACR shocks appeared to have a higher boiling point (noticed on longer track sessions). I boiled my shocks on several track days on my GTS (had them replaced under warranty several times) and had to manage by letting the shocks cool down longer and backing off on the aggressive driving style. The stiffer springs reduced your margin of error and it would make you pay for your driving errors much more frequently.
The real track rats upgraded to Penske Triple adjustable shocks with remote reserviors or Moton shocks (who had support issues).
Two years ago, I bought a 2001 ACR with the Dynamic Suspension adjustable coil overs. The owner had recently installed a new set, because the originals were leaking (27k miles). More on that later. I had researched Gen2 Viper issues and the ACR pretty thoroughly beforehand, so knew I'd want to replace the springs. I read somewhere that the German engineer doing the calculations had mistakenly included the down force of a wing, hence he arrived at the 1100 lb figure. The note said they should be more like 900 lb for the track with no wing. Searching the forums for what other owners had done, I learned that some owners had switched to 850 lb springs and others to 800 lb springs, while others had changed out the Dynamic Suspension for Koni or an alternate brand, due to their reputation for leaking. Of those that just changed out the springs, one or two said they wished they had gone with even lighter springs. So, that is what I did. Mine were pretty new (~1500 miles), so laying out a large sum on new coil overs did not seem to make sense at this point. Keeping my car mostly stock was also a factor. The super stiff ride was seriously aggravating a slow healing concussion; therefore, I quickly bought and installed the lighter springs. BTW, JonB sells the same brand spring as the original. I went with 750 lb for the rear and 400 lb for the front (original fronts are 500 lb). My ACR now rode much better, but still rougher than my wife's 2001 RT/10. More on this later.
To my dismay, one of the rear shocks was already leaking. I had planned to have the originals rebuilt and keep around as spares. Now, it looked like I might need to rebuild both sets. Speaking with a rebuilder, I learned that the Dynamic Suspension shocks leak because the shock valving and seals are not strong enough to handle the overly stiff springs. Made sense to me, because the leaking shock was a rear one. They cure the issue by using stronger components. Fortunately, my rear shock stopped leaking after installing the 750 lb springs. Maybe, now I'll get 50k out of them before a rebuild is required.
I was planning to go with even lighter springs for my second set, but JonB advised adjusting the compression or rebound first. I forget which now, but I chose to make changes to both. Turning the top knob (rebound if I remember correctly) from limit to limit, I counted about 30 or 31 potential positions. I set all at the 10th. I forget whether it was 10 from the clockwise end or the counterclockwise end. I was intending to set them at 10 from the softer end, but I guessed wrong. I learned this reading a post on adjusting these shocks afterward. Turning the bottom knob (compression if I remember correctly) from limit to limit, I counted about 15 or 16 potential positions. I set each shock to the middle setting. I am very happy with the result. My ACR now rides nearly the same as my wife's RT/10 and handles at least as well or better for the street. Might be worse near the limits, but I don't test those on the street. Misjudgements at a Viper's higher cornering limits are bound to be too costly. I joined SCCA this year intending to try autocross, so I guess I'll find out if/when racing starts up. I may be asking for adjustment suggestions from those autocrossing with Dynamic Suspension equipped ACRs, and I may need stiffer springs on all four corners. Hopefully not, but I haven't bought replacement springs for the other set yet. Sorry for the long post, but I'm hoping some here find it helpful.
Most of that is over my head, but this part is fantastic:
My wife just rolls her eyes when I tell her the GTS is coming.
Since you live in Kuwait, I'd focus on an RT/10. The ACR was produced for easy conversion into an SCCA Class T1 road racer. None of the changes in the ACR vs. the GTS made it more conducive for street use. Hell, I figure you would get your head chopped off in Kuwait for street racing
Very informative video & conversations
Everything he said, but at this point there is no reason to get one over the other for performance purposes. While they are both very fast and wonderful cars, there are bigger kids on the block these days, and there always will be for the latest and greatest 'thing' whatever that may be. The reason to get one of these over the other now is simply preference of styling and options. The ACR costs more and in a few ways you get more. As far as performance differences, it is small but exists in stock form. Most of the hp difference can be overcome with about $100 worth of parts. The biggest difference between the cars that most will notice is ride quality and the seat belts. Ride is a bit more harsh in the ACR, yes that's possible. Also, do you really want to buckle up a six point harness every time you get in the car? If you are ok with the harness and stiffer ride, and an increased price tag to buy one, the ACR is the way to go assuming you don't have a preference on the looks. Given the rarity of the ACR compared to the GTS, if you aren't fan of the looks or performance of the ACR, I would recommend and frankly ask, that you not get one. Modding an ACR (at least if its not easily reversible) would be somewhat sacrilege to preserving the history of the cars and parts aren't getting any easier to find. The GTS, though also rare, was made in much higher numbers and modding is more common. Plenty of ACRs were modded when first built as they were intended for racing. If used in actual races, those cars get a pass for their mods, and may actually be worth a bit more if used in a televised race or previously owned by a celebrity or known racing driver.
Cleaning PITA wheels 1999 ACR,
There is a product called "Brush Hero". I used to take over an hour to clean the ACR BBS wheels. This thing reduces all four wheels to 15 minutes. It is fantastic. I have a hellcat and it was a PITA also, until this gadget. It has a turbine brush with three streams of high pressure water. Also, I have tried Mothers, McGuires and Black Magic, wheel cleaners (@ $10 each) and none of them is worth a crap. "Just spray, wait 15 minutes and hose off", bull s#$%. The best wheel cleaner (no joke) is the Oxycleaner (orange bottle) from DOLLAR TREE, for (ready?) $1.00. It takes off tar, bugs, smears, brake dust and doesn't hurt the paint. Try it. For a buck, you cant lose. I give it to my car friends.
I'm a big fan of the ACR and have owned both ACR and GTS (x2). But it's relatively easy to build a better set up if you can live without the stickers & plaque.
Here's my last GTS and an ACR. Only power mods on the GTS different from ACR are light flywheel, headers and cat delete. It would MURDER the ACR on any road with a turn.
The best thing option on the ACR is the dynamic suspension dampers. i had mine rebuilt ~ 650.00 ea.
yes on the springs. i changed the rears to 800lb. what a difference.