bad viper
Enthusiast
I take it NOTHING was said about the Comp CoupE????
Had dinner with PVO managers, results at bottom of thread!!
- Thread starter shifter
- Start date
King GTS
Enthusiast
Thanks Joe for the info. This car is one big disappointment! I hope the heads roll at Dodge and everyone is taken out back and.........fired. Yeah, fired.
The Performance was just fine on the Viper.
Performance should and always will be left to the likes of Hennessey, TNT, Levin, Lingenfelter, SVS, etc..."They" should have concentrated a little more on style and keeping the Viper an aggressive Sports Car Icon! IMHO.
The Performance was just fine on the Viper.
Performance should and always will be left to the likes of Hennessey, TNT, Levin, Lingenfelter, SVS, etc..."They" should have concentrated a little more on style and keeping the Viper an aggressive Sports Car Icon! IMHO.
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
First of all, we don't need the sort of "performance" that Hennessey offers, IMO. I'm surprised his name is still being mentioned on the board as a valid option to send one's car to. Shocking!
Anyways, if you would like a car that has plenty of "show" and no "go", there are a bunch to choose from. The Viper has alot of the allure that it does because of how it performs. It's virtually untouchable by anything stock. The present Vipers performance is *not* fine, IMO. It's been the exact same for 7 years now - that is WAY too long not to upgrade a car.
Like the guys from the meeting said - they scored a home-run with everyone except the folks in the VCA. What does that tell you guys? This car is designed for a DIFFERENT market. They dind't make this car FOR us and fail miserably at it (as some seem to be making out), they designed this car as a WORLD ******, and I'm sure it will do quite nicely at that job. The fact that alot of the current membership doesn't like it... well, that's tough cookies. Not to sound harsh, but... you don't like it? Don't buy one. I'm sure Dodge ain't gonna be calling you begging you to take one, and I'm sure they ain't gonna be changing the look to satisfy a small group of folks that don't like the car, when they are shooting to please a much larger group who, by their admission, really likes it.
Anyways, if you would like a car that has plenty of "show" and no "go", there are a bunch to choose from. The Viper has alot of the allure that it does because of how it performs. It's virtually untouchable by anything stock. The present Vipers performance is *not* fine, IMO. It's been the exact same for 7 years now - that is WAY too long not to upgrade a car.
Like the guys from the meeting said - they scored a home-run with everyone except the folks in the VCA. What does that tell you guys? This car is designed for a DIFFERENT market. They dind't make this car FOR us and fail miserably at it (as some seem to be making out), they designed this car as a WORLD ******, and I'm sure it will do quite nicely at that job. The fact that alot of the current membership doesn't like it... well, that's tough cookies. Not to sound harsh, but... you don't like it? Don't buy one. I'm sure Dodge ain't gonna be calling you begging you to take one, and I'm sure they ain't gonna be changing the look to satisfy a small group of folks that don't like the car, when they are shooting to please a much larger group who, by their admission, really likes it.
King GTS
Enthusiast
I like your attitude Mike & I like your style.
We just disagree on a few things & only time will tell. I'll still be around to rub it in though buddy.
Dodge should have stayed true to the people that got them here! Us! The VCA! They're turning their backs on a group that's supported them for 10 years? That's some orginization! Screw the guys that got ya here & let's shoot for the world! I can't wait till it back fires on them. Just my .02
We just disagree on a few things & only time will tell. I'll still be around to rub it in though buddy.
Dodge should have stayed true to the people that got them here! Us! The VCA! They're turning their backs on a group that's supported them for 10 years? That's some orginization! Screw the guys that got ya here & let's shoot for the world! I can't wait till it back fires on them. Just my .02
Steve Ferguson
Enthusiast
Wayne, I spoke to Eric about the Comp Coupe for about a half hour. There was a brief mention of it in the video presentation, and then they actually drove it on to the trailer when the event was over. Holy cow, that thing sounds perfect!
Let me check with Eric to see what can and can't be said, and I will get back to you. Was there anything in particular you are trying to find out?
Let me check with Eric to see what can and can't be said, and I will get back to you. Was there anything in particular you are trying to find out?
shifter
Enthusiast
Some (more) comments.
I was with a group of people (engineers, managers, execs) and when we were together circulating the car, the comments were generally good. We picked out details that we liked, cooed over certain component designs, envisioned the 500+ HP on a warm sunny day, boasted about the lovely top and laughed about no more hanging out in gas stations waiting for the rain to stop, etc. However, 'in the restroom' so to speak the banter was a bit less politically correct or kind. Phrases such as "It's a shame.... too bad it looks like my Jag... Not as exciting as I thought it would be... "
The styling was, well, disappointing. That's the best word I can come up with.
On the ride home, my wife and I discussed the car in detail. We are on the fence about buying a new 2002 GTS or picking up a 2004 (being in the business we never jump at the first model year). Digesting all we saw, heard, envisioned, we came to a simple conclusion. We needed both.
When we think of our '98 roadster, we cherish the moments stopped at a gas station overhang waiting for the rain to stop and talking to all kinds of people who want to see the car up close. We love the loud deep rumble of the exhaust, we think it's soo cool to see the shifter excitedly sway back and forth with the lopey engine idle, we love the fact that dodge compensated the driving position to make it appear you were heading straight upon acceleration when in fact the rear end was dancing sideways (only good explanation for the crooked driving position). My wife gets a kick at having to step over the fire extinguisher, and take her shoes off so her feet don't roast. We love the fact that the interior doesn't detract from the raw power, feel, and excitement of driving what we consider a street legal race car. This is probably the closest we will ever come to a real race car, and we absolutely love it.
However, we also have a 'softer' side. I can picture taking the SRT out on a warm summer evening going out to dinner at a 4 or 5 star restaurant. It is a very classy car, one that sports 500+ hp. More like a high performance sedan, a more brutal M5. Sorry, but that's what I take from the SRT. A functional top, almost as many speakers as cylinders, door handles like the 70's Vette's, and a higher degree of comfort. Dodge was adamant about avoiding icons such as cup holders and cruise control, but recognized they needed a little less brutal image. As Wolfgang said, they 'need to make money' on these or there won't be new models. Can you picture stripes on the SRT? I can't. Just not that type of car.
Cashing in on the hood (saved Dodge thousands) meant there was ample cash to improve the rest of the car and appeal to a larger market. Like I said in an earlier post, it will be hard to ignore the performance of the SRT, and that is what Dodge is banking on, IMHO. Unlike the present Viper, I'm sure there will be many people out there driving the new SRT not knowing how precise a sportscar it really is. The looks, demeanor, stance, sound, none are good clues.
Don't kid yourself about the Comp. Coupe being the GTS. It is totally different than the SRT. Different body panels, slightly different chassis, suspension, engine, exhaust... it's a race car, and one not likely to be seen on the street (the ground clearance couldn't get it up most driveways). If they do make a street legal GTS, it will have to be different than the comp coupe is many ways.
I'm sure Dodge has a few more surprises up their sleeve for the 2004, at least I hope they do as we just got word that the GT40 is a go (albeit a rumored 6 figure price tag), and will be a 2004. Should be an interesting couple of years. Stay tuned.
I was with a group of people (engineers, managers, execs) and when we were together circulating the car, the comments were generally good. We picked out details that we liked, cooed over certain component designs, envisioned the 500+ HP on a warm sunny day, boasted about the lovely top and laughed about no more hanging out in gas stations waiting for the rain to stop, etc. However, 'in the restroom' so to speak the banter was a bit less politically correct or kind. Phrases such as "It's a shame.... too bad it looks like my Jag... Not as exciting as I thought it would be... "
The styling was, well, disappointing. That's the best word I can come up with.
On the ride home, my wife and I discussed the car in detail. We are on the fence about buying a new 2002 GTS or picking up a 2004 (being in the business we never jump at the first model year). Digesting all we saw, heard, envisioned, we came to a simple conclusion. We needed both.
When we think of our '98 roadster, we cherish the moments stopped at a gas station overhang waiting for the rain to stop and talking to all kinds of people who want to see the car up close. We love the loud deep rumble of the exhaust, we think it's soo cool to see the shifter excitedly sway back and forth with the lopey engine idle, we love the fact that dodge compensated the driving position to make it appear you were heading straight upon acceleration when in fact the rear end was dancing sideways (only good explanation for the crooked driving position). My wife gets a kick at having to step over the fire extinguisher, and take her shoes off so her feet don't roast. We love the fact that the interior doesn't detract from the raw power, feel, and excitement of driving what we consider a street legal race car. This is probably the closest we will ever come to a real race car, and we absolutely love it.
However, we also have a 'softer' side. I can picture taking the SRT out on a warm summer evening going out to dinner at a 4 or 5 star restaurant. It is a very classy car, one that sports 500+ hp. More like a high performance sedan, a more brutal M5. Sorry, but that's what I take from the SRT. A functional top, almost as many speakers as cylinders, door handles like the 70's Vette's, and a higher degree of comfort. Dodge was adamant about avoiding icons such as cup holders and cruise control, but recognized they needed a little less brutal image. As Wolfgang said, they 'need to make money' on these or there won't be new models. Can you picture stripes on the SRT? I can't. Just not that type of car.
Cashing in on the hood (saved Dodge thousands) meant there was ample cash to improve the rest of the car and appeal to a larger market. Like I said in an earlier post, it will be hard to ignore the performance of the SRT, and that is what Dodge is banking on, IMHO. Unlike the present Viper, I'm sure there will be many people out there driving the new SRT not knowing how precise a sportscar it really is. The looks, demeanor, stance, sound, none are good clues.
Don't kid yourself about the Comp. Coupe being the GTS. It is totally different than the SRT. Different body panels, slightly different chassis, suspension, engine, exhaust... it's a race car, and one not likely to be seen on the street (the ground clearance couldn't get it up most driveways). If they do make a street legal GTS, it will have to be different than the comp coupe is many ways.
I'm sure Dodge has a few more surprises up their sleeve for the 2004, at least I hope they do as we just got word that the GT40 is a go (albeit a rumored 6 figure price tag), and will be a 2004. Should be an interesting couple of years. Stay tuned.
King GTS
Enthusiast
Joe,
I hope we have some SERIOUS surprises in store for us too. You wouldn't believe me if I told you how much I love Viper. Any type of GTS Version of the SRT (even though it's not a Competition Coupe) would make me happy.
I agree with just about everything you Posted. I loved the "bathroom chatter." Imagine one of the "high up's" at the table being a fly on that wall.
I think USAF BAD ASP summed it up well on another thread. Someone's trying to figure out what personalized plate to use on their Final Edition GTS & he put, "NEW03SUX".
I think the new GT-40 will take the place of the GTS. And I honestly think they'll continue to make that car better & better year after year, as sales increase. They're practically getting a helping hand from Dodge IMO. I think we all feel a bit cheated.
I hope we have some SERIOUS surprises in store for us too. You wouldn't believe me if I told you how much I love Viper. Any type of GTS Version of the SRT (even though it's not a Competition Coupe) would make me happy.
I agree with just about everything you Posted. I loved the "bathroom chatter." Imagine one of the "high up's" at the table being a fly on that wall.
I think USAF BAD ASP summed it up well on another thread. Someone's trying to figure out what personalized plate to use on their Final Edition GTS & he put, "NEW03SUX".
I think the new GT-40 will take the place of the GTS. And I honestly think they'll continue to make that car better & better year after year, as sales increase. They're practically getting a helping hand from Dodge IMO. I think we all feel a bit cheated.
FUSCUCLA1
Enthusiast
I just hope it doesn't become like the Z06. I mean an increase of power in 2004 just to up the GT40, that is if the 2003 can't up the GT40 as it is. I think Chevy screwed its customers by introducing a higher HP model so soon.
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
King,
I think we'd get along just fine... next time I'm in TX, we'll grab a beer (or ten).
Mako,
3 points...
1) I know that alot of folks on this board don't like the SRT. However - I wouldn't put it at 75% here. I've talked to alot of folks off-line who LOVE the SRT. I've gotten alot of emails from folks who like it but have come right out and said they are "nervous" about posting that here for fear of being flamed for their opinion.
2) I would say that many people who bought the existing Viper did so based on looks. It's quite normal (I think) that people who were so enamored with a car to buy it and live with a few quirks would naturally not like a newer version of that car that is less aggressively styled. I think the current Viper owner group has probably one of the highest "I don't like it" contingents - and since we're mostly a bunch of pretty large ego guys, we probably tend to be pretty outspoken about what we do and don't like. That's cool - I love hanging out with this group - my type of guys - but my point is simply that it's probably a statistically non-diverse group.
3) It's quite clear that Dodge was shooting for a new market for this car. It was made (originally) to "show 'em what we can do", and to explore quick time-to-manufacture processes, and new manufacturing and build techniques. Now we're in the 10th year for the Viper, and sales are drooping. New management at DC is probably highly suspect of the car's continued importance to their bottom line - especially in light of declining revenues. I'm sure the word came down from up top that "If we're gonna do this Viper thing - let's DO it all out!". It's a new market... it's a new direction for the car. It's a new Viper.... and it looks different. Dodge has said (according to the guy who met with them) that they "scored a home run with everyone except the Viper guys". Would you say your highly dubious market survey based on comments made on this and another board are more relevant and accurate than market surveys Dodge conducts? Or is it more likely that you're surrounded by guys who don't like the car, and due to the limited size of "our world", we tend to think the whole world dislikes the car, when infact we are in the midst of those who don't like it, and that colors our perception of who "everyone" really is.
I bet there are a LOT of Porsche, Ferrari, and Lotus guys who would never before look at a Viper who are now raising eyebrows. I bet there are even MORE guys who never before considered a sports car - but had their CLK55's, E55's, M5's - and are now considering the new SRT because they just loved the sporty side of their former cars. And I bet there are a bunch of current Viper guys who like the SRT, and Vette guys too. And I'll further bet alot of the guys who used to buy the RX7's, Supras, 300Z's, and NSX's who will be looking at the SRT more closely.
I bet this car would sell 1,500 units a year based on the performance alone. You guys might not like to think it, but performance makes up for a whole heck of a lot of looks - witness the Z06 - the ugly duckling (IMO) of the Vette line, that is heralded as their "top dog" and "top of the line" in Vettespeak. Who really thinks the F60 (FX) Ferrari is as beautiful as the F40, F50, or Modena? But will it still be the "top dog" at Ferrari and the most lusted after model ever? I bet it will be.
I think we'd get along just fine... next time I'm in TX, we'll grab a beer (or ten).
Mako,
3 points...
1) I know that alot of folks on this board don't like the SRT. However - I wouldn't put it at 75% here. I've talked to alot of folks off-line who LOVE the SRT. I've gotten alot of emails from folks who like it but have come right out and said they are "nervous" about posting that here for fear of being flamed for their opinion.
2) I would say that many people who bought the existing Viper did so based on looks. It's quite normal (I think) that people who were so enamored with a car to buy it and live with a few quirks would naturally not like a newer version of that car that is less aggressively styled. I think the current Viper owner group has probably one of the highest "I don't like it" contingents - and since we're mostly a bunch of pretty large ego guys, we probably tend to be pretty outspoken about what we do and don't like. That's cool - I love hanging out with this group - my type of guys - but my point is simply that it's probably a statistically non-diverse group.
3) It's quite clear that Dodge was shooting for a new market for this car. It was made (originally) to "show 'em what we can do", and to explore quick time-to-manufacture processes, and new manufacturing and build techniques. Now we're in the 10th year for the Viper, and sales are drooping. New management at DC is probably highly suspect of the car's continued importance to their bottom line - especially in light of declining revenues. I'm sure the word came down from up top that "If we're gonna do this Viper thing - let's DO it all out!". It's a new market... it's a new direction for the car. It's a new Viper.... and it looks different. Dodge has said (according to the guy who met with them) that they "scored a home run with everyone except the Viper guys". Would you say your highly dubious market survey based on comments made on this and another board are more relevant and accurate than market surveys Dodge conducts? Or is it more likely that you're surrounded by guys who don't like the car, and due to the limited size of "our world", we tend to think the whole world dislikes the car, when infact we are in the midst of those who don't like it, and that colors our perception of who "everyone" really is.
I bet there are a LOT of Porsche, Ferrari, and Lotus guys who would never before look at a Viper who are now raising eyebrows. I bet there are even MORE guys who never before considered a sports car - but had their CLK55's, E55's, M5's - and are now considering the new SRT because they just loved the sporty side of their former cars. And I bet there are a bunch of current Viper guys who like the SRT, and Vette guys too. And I'll further bet alot of the guys who used to buy the RX7's, Supras, 300Z's, and NSX's who will be looking at the SRT more closely.
I bet this car would sell 1,500 units a year based on the performance alone. You guys might not like to think it, but performance makes up for a whole heck of a lot of looks - witness the Z06 - the ugly duckling (IMO) of the Vette line, that is heralded as their "top dog" and "top of the line" in Vettespeak. Who really thinks the F60 (FX) Ferrari is as beautiful as the F40, F50, or Modena? But will it still be the "top dog" at Ferrari and the most lusted after model ever? I bet it will be.
King GTS
Enthusiast
"All we can hope for is when DC brings out the SRT-GTS that they will try to recover some of the bad boy image..."
Bob I just hope they come out with it at all. But I'm sure everyone will be happy with any SRT-GTS that they make. The effort alone would be appreciated by a lot of guys. Why not have the SRT for those that can stomach that and the SRT-GTS for those that want a more "aggressive looking Viper?" I myself, didn't think Dodge was like "all the rest" when it came to the whole "loyalty to current customer thing." I guess we'll see what happens but it certainly appears that they're just like Chevy.
Bob I just hope they come out with it at all. But I'm sure everyone will be happy with any SRT-GTS that they make. The effort alone would be appreciated by a lot of guys. Why not have the SRT for those that can stomach that and the SRT-GTS for those that want a more "aggressive looking Viper?" I myself, didn't think Dodge was like "all the rest" when it came to the whole "loyalty to current customer thing." I guess we'll see what happens but it certainly appears that they're just like Chevy.
Steve Ferguson
Enthusiast
First off they do care about the current Viper owner, since it was our recommendations that got us what is on the SRT/10. Second, not everyone is a fan of the GTS. I know that given a choice I kept my RT/10 over my GTS. Nothing wrong with stating your own opinion but lets not speak for the world.
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
Jon, are you and Steve gonna get together at VOI7 and sing Kumbayaa?
Steve,
I hear what you're saying... but if DC brass is saying that they scored a home-run with everyone except the VCA, doesn't that indicate that the VCA guys aren't the target market? It's Ok if we're not... won't make me like the car any less.
Steve,
I hear what you're saying... but if DC brass is saying that they scored a home-run with everyone except the VCA, doesn't that indicate that the VCA guys aren't the target market? It's Ok if we're not... won't make me like the car any less.
King GTS
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steve Ferguson:
First off they do care about the current Viper owner, since it was our recommendations that got us what is on the SRT/10. Second, not everyone is a fan of the GTS. I know that given a choice I kept my RT/10 over my GTS. Nothing wrong with stating your own opinion but lets not speak for the world.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Steve,
I'm not speaking for the world but I am speaking facts. I can't intelligently conversate about the sales of a car that isn't even out yet. But I can intelligently say that "everyone" meaning actual Viper buyers, are fans of the GTS. The GTS has outsold the RT-10 2-1 since its inception. So when I say "everyone" I'm speaking on behalf of those that have actually bought a GTS. Of course if you bought an RT-10 instead, or opted to sell your GTS & keep the RT in your case, you wouldn't be included in the "everyone" catagory. But GTS owners are in the MAJORITY here not the MINORITY.
In summary, I don't speak for the world, just the MAJORITY of GTS owners, I'd venture 99% of them at that. I guarantee if you polled EVERY GTS owner and asked if they wanted a GTS Version of the SRT, 99% would say, YES. If polled, and asked if those same GTS owners were happy with the new SRT's appearance, I guarantee 98% would say, NO! Just stroll around this Board and see for yourself what 99% of the GTS owners are saying about the SRT & I think you might re-think your last post.
First off they do care about the current Viper owner, since it was our recommendations that got us what is on the SRT/10. Second, not everyone is a fan of the GTS. I know that given a choice I kept my RT/10 over my GTS. Nothing wrong with stating your own opinion but lets not speak for the world.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Steve,
I'm not speaking for the world but I am speaking facts. I can't intelligently conversate about the sales of a car that isn't even out yet. But I can intelligently say that "everyone" meaning actual Viper buyers, are fans of the GTS. The GTS has outsold the RT-10 2-1 since its inception. So when I say "everyone" I'm speaking on behalf of those that have actually bought a GTS. Of course if you bought an RT-10 instead, or opted to sell your GTS & keep the RT in your case, you wouldn't be included in the "everyone" catagory. But GTS owners are in the MAJORITY here not the MINORITY.
In summary, I don't speak for the world, just the MAJORITY of GTS owners, I'd venture 99% of them at that. I guarantee if you polled EVERY GTS owner and asked if they wanted a GTS Version of the SRT, 99% would say, YES. If polled, and asked if those same GTS owners were happy with the new SRT's appearance, I guarantee 98% would say, NO! Just stroll around this Board and see for yourself what 99% of the GTS owners are saying about the SRT & I think you might re-think your last post.
shifter
Enthusiast
Guys, Not to get in the middle of an interesting conversation, but obviously you can't use the term 'everyone' as it simply does not apply to all, and you admit it. Majority? Perhaps.
What I really don't get is why you warm weather guys don't prefer the RT10? I agree that he GTS is looks tougher from the rear, but the majorityof the car is the same. Enjoying a spirited run on a beautiful day is awesome. Doing so with the top off really gives you a feel for the old 427 Cobra days (albeit a bit more comfortable).
All sportscars (not racecars) should have a removable top, in my opinion (which probably isn't the majority). To me it's like part of a heritage or lineage. Track cars should be a GTS, but do you really think the majority of GTS's are bought for the track, or are they bought for looks from the rear and some track intentions which may or may not become a reality, or the appearance of having a track car to enhance intimidation amongst others we share the street with?
I buy my cars because of the driving experience, and the enjoyment I get. In my car, I can't see the rear end. I enjoy the sun, the air ladened with retiring rubber, and the sound of a beautifully synchronized powertrain, while enjoying the same performance. I do enjoy the looks of the car, but from my vantage the GTS and RT10 are the same, and public opinion on the styling isn't as black and white as this board seems sometimes.
My point is that there are many different reasons for what we do, enjoy, tolerate. Respect each others opinions, as that is all they are, opinions.
Having said all that, I still don't prefer the looks of the SRT over the GEN II's, and it has little to do with the top. Picturing a GTS version of the SRT isn't going to suddenly convert the 99% of GTS lovers, as I picture the SRT GTS as looking very similar to the SRT. The majority of the styling issues I am concerned with will apply to both cars, unless the SRT GTS is a radical departure from the SRT, which hinders the 'need to make money' approach.
No flames, please. Only my opinion.
What I really don't get is why you warm weather guys don't prefer the RT10? I agree that he GTS is looks tougher from the rear, but the majorityof the car is the same. Enjoying a spirited run on a beautiful day is awesome. Doing so with the top off really gives you a feel for the old 427 Cobra days (albeit a bit more comfortable).
All sportscars (not racecars) should have a removable top, in my opinion (which probably isn't the majority). To me it's like part of a heritage or lineage. Track cars should be a GTS, but do you really think the majority of GTS's are bought for the track, or are they bought for looks from the rear and some track intentions which may or may not become a reality, or the appearance of having a track car to enhance intimidation amongst others we share the street with?
I buy my cars because of the driving experience, and the enjoyment I get. In my car, I can't see the rear end. I enjoy the sun, the air ladened with retiring rubber, and the sound of a beautifully synchronized powertrain, while enjoying the same performance. I do enjoy the looks of the car, but from my vantage the GTS and RT10 are the same, and public opinion on the styling isn't as black and white as this board seems sometimes.
My point is that there are many different reasons for what we do, enjoy, tolerate. Respect each others opinions, as that is all they are, opinions.
Having said all that, I still don't prefer the looks of the SRT over the GEN II's, and it has little to do with the top. Picturing a GTS version of the SRT isn't going to suddenly convert the 99% of GTS lovers, as I picture the SRT GTS as looking very similar to the SRT. The majority of the styling issues I am concerned with will apply to both cars, unless the SRT GTS is a radical departure from the SRT, which hinders the 'need to make money' approach.
No flames, please. Only my opinion.
CAP
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shifter:
What I really don't get is why you warm weather guys don't prefer the RT10?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My Vipers have always been daily drivers. I sometimes felt a little strange driving in the RT in the winter, in the dark, with my jacket on. (I only put the roof on - toupee - when it was wet out.)
I like the intimacy (and I might add, privacy) of the GTS when the windows are up. When it is nice out, the windows go down, I hear the Corsa, but I do not get buffeted by the wind. (I know, I can hear the reply now, but after six years with the RT, the GTS just seems sooooo much nicer, IMHO.)
What I really don't get is why you warm weather guys don't prefer the RT10?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My Vipers have always been daily drivers. I sometimes felt a little strange driving in the RT in the winter, in the dark, with my jacket on. (I only put the roof on - toupee - when it was wet out.)
I like the intimacy (and I might add, privacy) of the GTS when the windows are up. When it is nice out, the windows go down, I hear the Corsa, but I do not get buffeted by the wind. (I know, I can hear the reply now, but after six years with the RT, the GTS just seems sooooo much nicer, IMHO.)
Steve Ferguson
Enthusiast
Trey, YOU have an opinion, great, but again the "99% or 98%" figure is you IMAGINATION, not FACT.
Mike, I think they made a few points very CLEAR at the dinner:
1- In order for PVO to exist, and to keep producing any and all future products, they must make a profitable business within a two year period.
2- In order to achieve profitability, there where some choices to be made:
a- Make a car that will be coveted by the current Viper owner, and still attacked by the press (because they are not competent enough to handle real power)?
b- Make a car that appeals to a larger spectrum of consumer, and one the press can actually drive while demolishing the competition?
By keeping the "soul" of the Viper true, unmatched power, what the owner base demanded #1, and developing every aspect of the car, allowing more potential customers to actually desire one, PVO is going in the only direction they can to make sure that the Viper will continue the legend it has already dominated since it's inception.
You want a GTS? Well all you business experts how the hell do you think they are going to justify the funding? Let's see, lets build a car with more dramatic looks, compromise the performance, and hope that all the current Viper owners can AFFORD at least two Vipers? Or let's build a better Viper in performance and overall what it offers it's owner, and tap into the ENTIRE sports car market and draw in their owners as well as our existing owner base? Well, what would you honestly do?
Before you start the flames, let me throw out a little curve ball? What would you think if they made this absolutely stunning Viper, but as soon as it hits the street, it shows very little performance gain from the original version? Would it make you happy that you "car I bought for looks" is now 5-7 spots down from the top of the performance "king of the hill"? The same group crying about looks are probably the same ones that scream bloody ****** when a Viper finishes at the top of every performance category (except brakes) and then the magazine picks the lesser performer as the "pick to click"!
I for one am more than happy that PVO is more concerned about keeping the Viper as the ultimate performance car rather than trying to keep it the most gorgeous vehicle on the street. Hey, all men can claim to be John Holmes when our cloths are on. Face it, once the cloths are off, it comes down to cubic inches. Viper has it, the others talk about it fully clothed!
Mike, I think they made a few points very CLEAR at the dinner:
1- In order for PVO to exist, and to keep producing any and all future products, they must make a profitable business within a two year period.
2- In order to achieve profitability, there where some choices to be made:
a- Make a car that will be coveted by the current Viper owner, and still attacked by the press (because they are not competent enough to handle real power)?
b- Make a car that appeals to a larger spectrum of consumer, and one the press can actually drive while demolishing the competition?
By keeping the "soul" of the Viper true, unmatched power, what the owner base demanded #1, and developing every aspect of the car, allowing more potential customers to actually desire one, PVO is going in the only direction they can to make sure that the Viper will continue the legend it has already dominated since it's inception.
You want a GTS? Well all you business experts how the hell do you think they are going to justify the funding? Let's see, lets build a car with more dramatic looks, compromise the performance, and hope that all the current Viper owners can AFFORD at least two Vipers? Or let's build a better Viper in performance and overall what it offers it's owner, and tap into the ENTIRE sports car market and draw in their owners as well as our existing owner base? Well, what would you honestly do?
Before you start the flames, let me throw out a little curve ball? What would you think if they made this absolutely stunning Viper, but as soon as it hits the street, it shows very little performance gain from the original version? Would it make you happy that you "car I bought for looks" is now 5-7 spots down from the top of the performance "king of the hill"? The same group crying about looks are probably the same ones that scream bloody ****** when a Viper finishes at the top of every performance category (except brakes) and then the magazine picks the lesser performer as the "pick to click"!
I for one am more than happy that PVO is more concerned about keeping the Viper as the ultimate performance car rather than trying to keep it the most gorgeous vehicle on the street. Hey, all men can claim to be John Holmes when our cloths are on. Face it, once the cloths are off, it comes down to cubic inches. Viper has it, the others talk about it fully clothed!
shifter
Enthusiast
I can see your point, Craig, and no 'too much wind' flames here.
With a hard top for the Gen II RT, I was thinking people must really love the GTS rear and hatch to give up the option of taking the top off. With it on, and windows rolled up or down, I didn't experience a difference other than being a bit more 'confined' (especially w/helmet) in the RT.
And before we start again on water falls inside or driving with a towel on your lap, my GEN II hard top doesn't leak a drop, and I can only assume many others don't as well. Soft top may be another story, I don't know. I've never used it.
With a hard top for the Gen II RT, I was thinking people must really love the GTS rear and hatch to give up the option of taking the top off. With it on, and windows rolled up or down, I didn't experience a difference other than being a bit more 'confined' (especially w/helmet) in the RT.
And before we start again on water falls inside or driving with a towel on your lap, my GEN II hard top doesn't leak a drop, and I can only assume many others don't as well. Soft top may be another story, I don't know. I've never used it.
GTS Dean
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shifter:
...or driving with a towel on your lap...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Been there, done that. Most memorable? The time after VOI #1 that I had to steer with my left knee, pull down on the top header above the mirror with my right hand holding a soaked towel dripping down my fore arm all the way to my arm pit and then to my belt line, another wet rag stuffed against the windshield/side curtain interface with my left hand - whilst deftly negotiating early afternoon rush-hour traffic during a rain storm on the Katy Freeway in Houston.
Yeah Baby!
Makes you appreciate the GTS and hard windows just that much more.
...or driving with a towel on your lap...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Been there, done that. Most memorable? The time after VOI #1 that I had to steer with my left knee, pull down on the top header above the mirror with my right hand holding a soaked towel dripping down my fore arm all the way to my arm pit and then to my belt line, another wet rag stuffed against the windshield/side curtain interface with my left hand - whilst deftly negotiating early afternoon rush-hour traffic during a rain storm on the Katy Freeway in Houston.
Yeah Baby!
Makes you appreciate the GTS and hard windows just that much more.
gtsviper
Enthusiast
Steve:
Why are you bothering to explain the SRT-10 to these knuckleheads? They obviously don't get long term business strategy, profit concerns and balance theories. Further, no matter what is said, they don't like the looks of the new car from behind (which btw will be the predominant view they will have from their Gen II GTS').
See what happens when Dodge tries to attract owners of other cars to the club? There goes the neighborhood.
This is vintage Whiners Forum stuff and Tony should move it to the proper forum without delay.
Why are you bothering to explain the SRT-10 to these knuckleheads? They obviously don't get long term business strategy, profit concerns and balance theories. Further, no matter what is said, they don't like the looks of the new car from behind (which btw will be the predominant view they will have from their Gen II GTS').
See what happens when Dodge tries to attract owners of other cars to the club? There goes the neighborhood.
This is vintage Whiners Forum stuff and Tony should move it to the proper forum without delay.
Bwright
Enthusiast
Some very interesting and insightful opinions especially from Mike Brunton. As a Corvette guy I will say that the SRT/10 is the first Viper I, and many others, would ever consider and I will outline why:
1. Improved aerodynamics via undertray and staggered tires. In every top speed test I have seen where the Viper lost the driver commented that the Viper's aerodynamics, dictated by its style, size and tires, compromised it. The improved aerodynamics will lead to additional improvements in fuel efficiency and interior noise.
2. Front/rear balance finally closer to the 50.5/49.5 I am used to in the Vette and what helps give the Z06 its excellent roadholding. This will go a long way toward ridding the Viper of some of its transient handling problems while silencing its critics on the issue.
3. The use of run-flats. Though their ride is a bit harsher the advantage of being able to drive 100-200 miles on a flat is significant when you are in an expensive car. Need I remind anyone how Bill Cosby lost his only son?
4. Better water sealing needs no explanation. I remain astonished at the number of reports I have heard of the poor water sealing of the RT/10.
5. The deep-sixing of the clamshell hood. This one item was the cost leader in repair and insurance costs for the car. According to a February 2000 report by the Highway Loss Data Institute (HLDI) "the Dodge Viper, a small sports car, has the worst overall collision coverage loss experience among 1997-99 model passenger vehicles. The Viper's average loss payment per insured vehicle year, which reflects both the frequency and size of collision claims, is more than seven times the average for all cars. Average loss payments per claim exceed $26,000."
6. Improved structural rigidity.
7. Improved Ergonomics.
8. More interior room.
Don't get me wrong, I still firmly believe Daimler has a plan to kill the Viper and have outlined same on this site. I hope I am proven wrong.
In any event the improvements to the Viper will take it a significant step toward being a real supercar, that is, more than just a toy. Yes the Viper has all the race victories to be taken seriously in that environment but without real world livability and refinement it will never be regarded as world class. If its sales tank because it failed to broaden its appeal beyond a small ******** group of fans it will become a footnote in automotive history. Some may decry the Vette's features and practicality but at fifty years old the Vette has outlived every modern production sports car and has come into its finest hours. The same will not be said about the Viper if it remains off-putting to a vast segment of potential buyers. Steve Ferguson's post on this nailed it perfectly as did Mike Brunton's 3 point post earlier.
The key thing for the Viper is indeed to remain honest to performance and with the move to 500hp this cannot be questioned. I am also heartened to hear PVO's engineers speak of sustained 1.0g handling. The only other vehicle I have seen do this is the Z06. Bottom line is that the SRT/10 will be the apex of the automotive food chain and will have no natural predators.
Those who pass on it because of its looks should not be derided though as I would not buy a Z06 over my Corvette coupe simply because I don't like the way the Z06 looks despite its improved performance. It would be nice if a GTS version of the SRT/10 is built but I am not optimistic.
The changes are actually for the best. Keep the faith guys. Stand behind your car or there won't be a car to stand behind.
1. Improved aerodynamics via undertray and staggered tires. In every top speed test I have seen where the Viper lost the driver commented that the Viper's aerodynamics, dictated by its style, size and tires, compromised it. The improved aerodynamics will lead to additional improvements in fuel efficiency and interior noise.
2. Front/rear balance finally closer to the 50.5/49.5 I am used to in the Vette and what helps give the Z06 its excellent roadholding. This will go a long way toward ridding the Viper of some of its transient handling problems while silencing its critics on the issue.
3. The use of run-flats. Though their ride is a bit harsher the advantage of being able to drive 100-200 miles on a flat is significant when you are in an expensive car. Need I remind anyone how Bill Cosby lost his only son?
4. Better water sealing needs no explanation. I remain astonished at the number of reports I have heard of the poor water sealing of the RT/10.
5. The deep-sixing of the clamshell hood. This one item was the cost leader in repair and insurance costs for the car. According to a February 2000 report by the Highway Loss Data Institute (HLDI) "the Dodge Viper, a small sports car, has the worst overall collision coverage loss experience among 1997-99 model passenger vehicles. The Viper's average loss payment per insured vehicle year, which reflects both the frequency and size of collision claims, is more than seven times the average for all cars. Average loss payments per claim exceed $26,000."
6. Improved structural rigidity.
7. Improved Ergonomics.
8. More interior room.
Don't get me wrong, I still firmly believe Daimler has a plan to kill the Viper and have outlined same on this site. I hope I am proven wrong.
In any event the improvements to the Viper will take it a significant step toward being a real supercar, that is, more than just a toy. Yes the Viper has all the race victories to be taken seriously in that environment but without real world livability and refinement it will never be regarded as world class. If its sales tank because it failed to broaden its appeal beyond a small ******** group of fans it will become a footnote in automotive history. Some may decry the Vette's features and practicality but at fifty years old the Vette has outlived every modern production sports car and has come into its finest hours. The same will not be said about the Viper if it remains off-putting to a vast segment of potential buyers. Steve Ferguson's post on this nailed it perfectly as did Mike Brunton's 3 point post earlier.
The key thing for the Viper is indeed to remain honest to performance and with the move to 500hp this cannot be questioned. I am also heartened to hear PVO's engineers speak of sustained 1.0g handling. The only other vehicle I have seen do this is the Z06. Bottom line is that the SRT/10 will be the apex of the automotive food chain and will have no natural predators.
Those who pass on it because of its looks should not be derided though as I would not buy a Z06 over my Corvette coupe simply because I don't like the way the Z06 looks despite its improved performance. It would be nice if a GTS version of the SRT/10 is built but I am not optimistic.
The changes are actually for the best. Keep the faith guys. Stand behind your car or there won't be a car to stand behind.
SmokinV10
Enthusiast
Everyone here is screaming abut how PVO and DC have to make a profit on the SRT. Now let me ask you guys who are on your soapboxes standing up for DC....why do I care if DC makes a lot of money off of me. Granted, for the longgevity of the Viper, it may help if they make more money. However, if they make more money that means I am getting LESS car for my money. I would rather they make the same profit margin as they make on the current viper and offer me a Viper that is more Viper and less corvette meets dodge stratus meets S2000. Their profit is their business, but their Value Statement is my business. We just dont like their value statement. To save money, they made an ugly car and short changed us on many things we love. They better keep their fingers crossed and hope people love the new car. The first year sold out. Thats fine. Lets see how the upcoming years do. How many non-gearheads will choose a "refined" dodge over a 500SL? If I wanted a refined car, I wouldnt buy a Viper, I would buy a Mercedes Benz, or the new Masserati, the new lexus. For 80-90K you are almost in Ferrari territory. To those owners, a they are buying a "DODGE" whereas the "refined crowd" wants the name-brand prestige and recognition. They arent the gearheads who want to appreciate true automotive machinery. Those are the guys who want image, prestige and vanity. I think they failed on deliverying this value proposition. STUPID STUPID STUPID.
gtsviper
Enthusiast
I see McGuire crawled out of his hole with another insightful and mature response. Have you finished reading Guts yet? If not, crawl back in and finish your homework.
MichaelP
Enthusiast
Yahooooooo a car EVERYONE will like Yippy.
Pretty soon we can be like the Corvette owners. Own a Viper and yet have hundreds of others who the same car you do(In the same freaking town). That is what all us individualistic Viper owners want right ???
Pretty soon we can be like the Corvette owners. Own a Viper and yet have hundreds of others who the same car you do(In the same freaking town). That is what all us individualistic Viper owners want right ???
MichaelP
Enthusiast
Well it is still a Viper just like the 1983 Mustangs (Pinto look alikes) were still Mustangs.
You must be registered for see images
King GTS
Enthusiast
This is a really good thread IMO. Ideas are being tossed around as well as opinions - that's great.
I only wonder if the thread right under this one titled, "Questions and Comments" by "I Ben Therbefor" will be visited as well. I wonder if you'd disagree with his views as well as mine. I'm actually curious as to what a lot of people on this thread have to say about what he Posted. Steve Ferguson, etc.....
No flames, just honestly curious....
I only wonder if the thread right under this one titled, "Questions and Comments" by "I Ben Therbefor" will be visited as well. I wonder if you'd disagree with his views as well as mine. I'm actually curious as to what a lot of people on this thread have to say about what he Posted. Steve Ferguson, etc.....
No flames, just honestly curious....
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
There is no doubt in my mind that if PVO had released the pic above as "the new Viper", everyone would complain and say how much it sucked.
Keller
Enthusiast
1st off this is my 1st post on Viper forums, I've been surfing for a while but felt this was a good time to chime in as an independent observer. I do not own a viper but have come close to purchasing one and will one day.
With that said I would like to talk about the styling of the new Viper.
1. you must feel passionate about the styling of a car to purchase it, especially one with a 70k plus price tag.
2. I DO NOT feel passionate about the styling of the 2003 viper.
3. When I purchase a Viper it WILL be a gen II car.
Now keep in mind that I do not currently own a Viper and could afford a 2003 when intoduced. To me the Gen III viper looks like a convertible Camaro (of which i could buy 3 for the price of a viper).
I know, all the supporters of the new viper are probably thinking that seeded somewhere in my subconscience I have a predetermined love for the older Gen II body style. NO, when you see a GEN II viper you know what it is, when I look at a Gen III it looks like 5 other cars that had a single offspring. A confused one at that.
With that said I would like to talk about the styling of the new Viper.
1. you must feel passionate about the styling of a car to purchase it, especially one with a 70k plus price tag.
2. I DO NOT feel passionate about the styling of the 2003 viper.
3. When I purchase a Viper it WILL be a gen II car.
Now keep in mind that I do not currently own a Viper and could afford a 2003 when intoduced. To me the Gen III viper looks like a convertible Camaro (of which i could buy 3 for the price of a viper).
I know, all the supporters of the new viper are probably thinking that seeded somewhere in my subconscience I have a predetermined love for the older Gen II body style. NO, when you see a GEN II viper you know what it is, when I look at a Gen III it looks like 5 other cars that had a single offspring. A confused one at that.
King GTS
Enthusiast
Keller,
You might not get it on this thread, but I'm here to tell you, YOU'RE DEFINITELY NOT ALONE. There's a tremendous amount of people out there that feel exactly like you do! We'll ALL soon find out though. We'll all soon find out what the world thinks about this car. I hear the mags are getting it soon. I visit a lot of forums and you aren't going to find a situation where EVERYONE hates or EVERYONE likes the SRT. But for the most part, I haven't heard a lot of positive things about it. Only from the people on this Thread. For the most part, people have been saying the same thing you said. And you're not even a Viper owner and you still feel the way a lot of Viper/Corvette/ & Supra guys feel. Among other things, it just looks like too many other cars. Not aggressive enough. We'll see what happens though. Since Dodge is evidentally trying to target a different group & has given up on the VCA (burning the bridge that got them here), the people on this board that are getting the SRT better hope that "they" like it. Because if "they" feel the same way that a lot of the people here feel.......the SRT's in trouble.
But welcome to the Board Keller! Great 1st Post my friend. Hope you bought your flame suit though.
You might not get it on this thread, but I'm here to tell you, YOU'RE DEFINITELY NOT ALONE. There's a tremendous amount of people out there that feel exactly like you do! We'll ALL soon find out though. We'll all soon find out what the world thinks about this car. I hear the mags are getting it soon. I visit a lot of forums and you aren't going to find a situation where EVERYONE hates or EVERYONE likes the SRT. But for the most part, I haven't heard a lot of positive things about it. Only from the people on this Thread. For the most part, people have been saying the same thing you said. And you're not even a Viper owner and you still feel the way a lot of Viper/Corvette/ & Supra guys feel. Among other things, it just looks like too many other cars. Not aggressive enough. We'll see what happens though. Since Dodge is evidentally trying to target a different group & has given up on the VCA (burning the bridge that got them here), the people on this board that are getting the SRT better hope that "they" like it. Because if "they" feel the same way that a lot of the people here feel.......the SRT's in trouble.
But welcome to the Board Keller! Great 1st Post my friend. Hope you bought your flame suit though.
Steve Ferguson
Enthusiast
In either this post or in another related one, Jon (I think) made a great comment, "the first Viper was not intended to make money". That is very true. 14 years ago as this thing started to build momentum, the purpose of the Viper was to make a splash, and it did that better than any other car in automotive history. Think about it, building a car with 400 HP when the closest you could get was 300 HP! What a statement.
Today, the Viper is again asked to do something new, that is, be the focal and base product for an entirely new division, one that is a group of insane hot rodder and actual racers.
Hey if we are all smart (me included) then why are we all typing instead of building cars?
Today, the Viper is again asked to do something new, that is, be the focal and base product for an entirely new division, one that is a group of insane hot rodder and actual racers.
Hey if we are all smart (me included) then why are we all typing instead of building cars?
MichaelP
Enthusiast
If you want to build cars you should. You only go around once man. Who told you, you weren't smart enough to build cars?
