bad viper
Enthusiast
Something I don't like about the term "donate"!!!!!!!!!!!!
New Twin Turbo Company!
- Thread starter bad viper
- Start date
John Moore
Enthusiast
Been there, done that.
Rob Tynmann at Axis has already done the 1200hp Turbo Mustang (several) and has a couple of national record holders-- Tim Palmer and Mike Murillo's 8.1 and 7.XX second machines. There are at least three separate tuners trying to build Turbo Vipers while I type. Rob Tynmann, Hruska, and Hennessey are the only ones I'm aware of who have actually built successful systems. Lacedo, SVSi and Tarnutzer are "marketing" these various systems. Anyone claiming to build a "much cheaper" TT system for a Viper is in for a rude awakening and the "donor" phrase will definitely apply.
Since I've already donated part of my my knuckles (ouch!) and part of my liver (beer!), but never the Viper..... I feel I'm entitled to speak up here. There are at least five other tuners worldwide who are making turbo Viper overtures and making premature claims and/or requesting donors. I'm not here to pi$$ on anyones parade but getting someone to do some fancy welding around a Viper engine compartment is only a tiny part of the equation.
One day the lid will be off the fuel management part of our cars and all kinds of power will be coming out all over the place. By the way, the Viper's fuel management is related to no other high performance vehicle on the planet. Levin, Heffner, Roe, Cragin, jR, Roy, Albert, Welch, Greg, and Hennessey, know exactly what I'm talking about. I didn't mean to leave anyone out and so the real point is... WHAT'S with this fuel managenent! Good luck if you can come up with a reliable, inexpensive solution to this. THAT will sell your "kit"!
Rob Tynmann at Axis has already done the 1200hp Turbo Mustang (several) and has a couple of national record holders-- Tim Palmer and Mike Murillo's 8.1 and 7.XX second machines. There are at least three separate tuners trying to build Turbo Vipers while I type. Rob Tynmann, Hruska, and Hennessey are the only ones I'm aware of who have actually built successful systems. Lacedo, SVSi and Tarnutzer are "marketing" these various systems. Anyone claiming to build a "much cheaper" TT system for a Viper is in for a rude awakening and the "donor" phrase will definitely apply.
Since I've already donated part of my my knuckles (ouch!) and part of my liver (beer!), but never the Viper..... I feel I'm entitled to speak up here. There are at least five other tuners worldwide who are making turbo Viper overtures and making premature claims and/or requesting donors. I'm not here to pi$$ on anyones parade but getting someone to do some fancy welding around a Viper engine compartment is only a tiny part of the equation.
One day the lid will be off the fuel management part of our cars and all kinds of power will be coming out all over the place. By the way, the Viper's fuel management is related to no other high performance vehicle on the planet. Levin, Heffner, Roe, Cragin, jR, Roy, Albert, Welch, Greg, and Hennessey, know exactly what I'm talking about. I didn't mean to leave anyone out and so the real point is... WHAT'S with this fuel managenent! Good luck if you can come up with a reliable, inexpensive solution to this. THAT will sell your "kit"!
Landspeed
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Moore:
Been there, done that.
One day the lid will be off the fuel management part of our cars and all kinds of power will be coming out all over the place. By the way, the Viper's fuel management is related to no other high performance vehicle on the planet. Levin, Heffner, Roe, Cragin, jR, Roy, Albert, Welch, Greg, and Hennessey, know exactly what I'm talking about. I didn't mean to leave anyone out and so the real point is... WHAT'S with this fuel managenent! Good luck if you can come up with a reliable, inexpensive solution to this. THAT will sell your "kit"!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Youre saying that SVSI, Hennessey, Levin e.t.c dont have the fuel system completely figured out? Can you explain in laymens terms why the fuel system is so hard to understand and what that means? I mean once the fuel system is "figured out" how much power can we expect.
Been there, done that.
One day the lid will be off the fuel management part of our cars and all kinds of power will be coming out all over the place. By the way, the Viper's fuel management is related to no other high performance vehicle on the planet. Levin, Heffner, Roe, Cragin, jR, Roy, Albert, Welch, Greg, and Hennessey, know exactly what I'm talking about. I didn't mean to leave anyone out and so the real point is... WHAT'S with this fuel managenent! Good luck if you can come up with a reliable, inexpensive solution to this. THAT will sell your "kit"!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Youre saying that SVSI, Hennessey, Levin e.t.c dont have the fuel system completely figured out? Can you explain in laymens terms why the fuel system is so hard to understand and what that means? I mean once the fuel system is "figured out" how much power can we expect.
John Moore
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Youre saying that SVSI, Hennessey, Levin e.t.c dont have the fuel system completely figured out? Can you explain in laymens terms why the fuel system is so hard to understand and what that means? I mean once the fuel system is "figured out" how much power can we expect.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Landspeed,
Sorry to be so confusing. What I was trying to say is the challenge for tuners is not putting parts together, polishing parts, making brackets, welding pipes, etc. it's been getting A/F and timing handled without having to essentially gut and replace the current factory setup. Some tuners have come up with some pretty clever ways of supplying fuel or fuel additives and various ways of fooling engine management or the more expensive less imaginative outright bypassing of the factory ECU. What I was alluding to was a less expensive, reliable, versatile, easy to install engine management program like Corvettes, Mustangs, and Ricers have. When the A/F and spark timing can be easily and accurately controlled by any and all tuners, IMO 1000hp motors in all kinds of formats will be available.
Youre saying that SVSI, Hennessey, Levin e.t.c dont have the fuel system completely figured out? Can you explain in laymens terms why the fuel system is so hard to understand and what that means? I mean once the fuel system is "figured out" how much power can we expect.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Landspeed,
Sorry to be so confusing. What I was trying to say is the challenge for tuners is not putting parts together, polishing parts, making brackets, welding pipes, etc. it's been getting A/F and timing handled without having to essentially gut and replace the current factory setup. Some tuners have come up with some pretty clever ways of supplying fuel or fuel additives and various ways of fooling engine management or the more expensive less imaginative outright bypassing of the factory ECU. What I was alluding to was a less expensive, reliable, versatile, easy to install engine management program like Corvettes, Mustangs, and Ricers have. When the A/F and spark timing can be easily and accurately controlled by any and all tuners, IMO 1000hp motors in all kinds of formats will be available.
WESTCOAST JASON
Enthusiast
The piggyback system on the kit is capable on paper to do what is needed, the trouble is getting it tuned properly. The software interface for it is terrible and very clumsy. What the splitsec computer needs is a box with the dials on it in place of a laptop. Back in my sandrail days I had an Accel DFI fuel injection system that did just that. You can use a laptop OR an Accel box with dials that adjust the maps for rough settings. Then you fine tune with a PC. With the splitsec, you have to actually turn the car off to make a change. Imagine the frustration. The newer controllers like Roes VEC2 and the soon to come (HOPEFULLY) AEM use software that is much easier. Tuning is coming around, but I really wish we had an OPEN knowledge base, but I know tuners must protect their work....
John Moore
Enthusiast
Keprght,
The Axis TT does have programmable A/F and timing that works fine. It requires tuning on a load dyno with laptop programming and downloading. It does not allow easy twirling of knobs to flex A/F ratios and timing as you please. It's half way between a factory "hands off" arrangement and a "you can do anything you want" detonator. Sticking aftermarket rheostats here and there on what ever sensor you fancy can run you into dangerously high EGTs (Exhaust Gas Temps) that will fry and crack up all kinds of expensive stainless as well as detonate the motor. My system with 6000 miles on it and some blistering hot track days hasn't cooked a thing and it doesn't even have an intercooler yet but then again I'm careful and smart enough not to destroy things. The reason some tuners would like to keep a lid on the tuning is to keep people from destroying a carefully designed system as well as trying to keep everyone else from running off with your hard earned engineering. Rob is now being very selective about anyone he works with and you're right about him not doing much for the general public anymore....just specialty racecars and engineered products for R&D firms and high performance parts distributors.
The Axis TT does have programmable A/F and timing that works fine. It requires tuning on a load dyno with laptop programming and downloading. It does not allow easy twirling of knobs to flex A/F ratios and timing as you please. It's half way between a factory "hands off" arrangement and a "you can do anything you want" detonator. Sticking aftermarket rheostats here and there on what ever sensor you fancy can run you into dangerously high EGTs (Exhaust Gas Temps) that will fry and crack up all kinds of expensive stainless as well as detonate the motor. My system with 6000 miles on it and some blistering hot track days hasn't cooked a thing and it doesn't even have an intercooler yet but then again I'm careful and smart enough not to destroy things. The reason some tuners would like to keep a lid on the tuning is to keep people from destroying a carefully designed system as well as trying to keep everyone else from running off with your hard earned engineering. Rob is now being very selective about anyone he works with and you're right about him not doing much for the general public anymore....just specialty racecars and engineered products for R&D firms and high performance parts distributors.
WESTCOAST JASON
Enthusiast
In light of forth coming issues I will restrain myself in responding to the above remarks, but let it be known that I and a real 5 Star Dodge Tech with Team Viper ties disagree with some of the statements made in the previous post.
SVS Turbo
Enthusiast
We have no issues with fuel management for turbo's on a V-10 and have pushed the Viper/V-10 to extreme limits. The reason? Motec. We have been tuning Vipers w/ Motec systems since 96 and have went through the R+D "BUGS"
If anyone is serious in having a V-10 Turbocharged, you need to contact SVS.
Whatever level of turbo HP you desire, we will build it and it will run without fuel management issues.
10cyls doesnt jive like 4,6 and 8. Have fun!
Ron Jr.
If anyone is serious in having a V-10 Turbocharged, you need to contact SVS.
Whatever level of turbo HP you desire, we will build it and it will run without fuel management issues.
10cyls doesnt jive like 4,6 and 8. Have fun!
Ron Jr.
John Moore
Enthusiast
Keprght,
If you're ever in the San Antonio area drop me an e-mail. You're welcome to a ride any time to get a feel of the TT. Although Rob isn't doing them at this time you can "test" drive a real one to form a correct opinion. No hype no gripe just the real thing.
If you're ever in the San Antonio area drop me an e-mail. You're welcome to a ride any time to get a feel of the TT. Although Rob isn't doing them at this time you can "test" drive a real one to form a correct opinion. No hype no gripe just the real thing.
