Oil Question for Tom F&L

jrkermode

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You have mentioned in the past that Mobil Delvac 1 is superior to Mobil 1, primarily due to the extra additives in the Delvac. Why then doesn't everybody use diesel engine oil in their cars? Will the additional additives harm the catalytic converters?
 

Tom F&L GoR

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Passenger cars are "supposed" to use lubricants that the OEMs recommend. Part of that recommendation is fuel economy, which then dictates the viscosity grade. To keep a consistent message to consumers, 10W30 is the highest viscosity grade recommended (5W30, 5W20 are the others)because it still fits the ILSAC GF-3 requirements and allows the "starburst" symbol on the front of the bottle. By definition, any oil that is a xxW40 is not even eligible for the starburst symbol. OEMs want this system because they can then recommend the use of any starburst oil (and not have to explain viscosity or API performance levels) and meet their obligation to the EPA to recommend fuel efficient oils.

Part two of the starburst is emissions system protection. Current oils have a limit of 0.1% phosphorus, even though current levels of phos has not been linked to catalyst degradation. The current lubricant limits are "formulation" limits (i.e. 0.1% max) because the technical groups that develop lubricant performance requirements cannot come up with an engine test that would determine the appropriate level of phos. Oh well, the OEMs got their way.

Along come diesel oils. While a 15W40 might cause a little cold starting issue sometimes, a 5W40 would not. It will perform the same as a 5W30 or 5W20 when it's cold. The -40 part will provide some added bearing protection, at the slight cost of fuel economy (maybe 1-2%?)

Diesel oils are not bound by the phos limits, so when the next category after API SL/ILSAC GF-3 comes out, they will remain at the 0.1% phos level, even as the passenger car limit will decrease to 0.08%. To me, it's a little more serious that taking the lead out of gasoline; older engines designed for older oils that had 0.12% phos will now be exposed to oils with a lot less wear protection. There has been a lot of debate between the OEMs and the oil industry about whether the 0.08% level is backwards compatible or not, and again, the OEMs got their way.

Will the current level of phos harm a catalyst? No, because even your current catalyst was designed for the current level of phos in oils. What the OEMs are getting is an oil they hope will allow them to use less precious metal loading on future catalysts (or the argument that now the catalyst will last longer.)

Diesel oils are formulated to tolerate upwards of 5% soot in the oil and still prevent wear, sludge, thickening. They are formulated to prevent varnish and ringland deposits under highly loaded, high pressure turbocharged conditions. The additive package is typically nearly twice that of a passenger car oil.

Summary: Delvac 1, Rotella T synthetic, Amsoil, or any other diesel 5W40 has as good cold starting, better bearing protection, worse fuel economy, maintains anti-wear levels, equivalent emission system effects, and has better dispersancy and detergency than a passenger car formulation.

And finally the now-obvious answer to your first question: People don't use diesel oils because the OEMs tell them not to.
 

Steve-Indy

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As always, Tom is THE MAN...knowledgable, with well thought out and articulated answers...given without brand bias !!!

One "quickie question", Tom...you said: " Will the current level of phos harm a catalyst? No, because even your current catalyst was designed for the current level of phos in oils. What the OEMs are getting is an oil they hope will allow them to use less precious metal loading on future catalysts (or the argument that now the catalyst will last longer.)"

Is the quoted paragraph talking about OEM oils or Diesel oils here ??

Thanks, as always,

Steve
 

Tom F&L GoR

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Sorry, the OEMs that are getting the advantage are the passenger car OEMs - DaimlerChrysler, GM, Ford. Now they can make cheaper (or longer-lasting) catalysts, and it doesn't cost them anything because they don't buy the oil. The oil and additive companies have to develop alternatives that provide the same protection (we all hope) but either at a research cost of higher component cost. That means in the end, the consumer will pay more.

Diesel oil OEMs are OK with having the same phos levels, they have lots of other issues... like the proliferation of diesel engine OEM specs for their own version of oils. Diesel oils might end up being developed for each brand of engine. Talk about complicated and expensive - but that's another story.
 
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jrkermode

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I'm switchin'. Just picked up 2 cases (8 gallons) at Western States Oil in San Jose, CA. They sell it by the case, but the cost works out to $5.17 per quart. It will go into the car this week.
 

Janni

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Been running Mobil DelVac 1 for over 3 years. Cars (and owners) very happy with results.

Thanks for all your help, Tom!
 

cgmaster

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One question. Why not use 10w-30. It seems that no matter the type of oil the viscosity would be the same on any 10w-30. Are you just using the 5w-30 because it is thinner. It seems this would give you more power just because it is thinner. Also it seems the oil pressures would also change going to the thinner oil. If it does how would this work out with the lifters being hydraulic. it seems that they would not pump up as high as with a heavier oil. I am thinking of doing the swap to the delvac but I am worried about those things.
 

ViperJoe

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It is still a 30wt (10/30 - 5/30)

The viscosity increasers cause the weight to increase as the temp goes up.

The lower number allows it to circulate freely in cold climates, but at operating temperature it is STILL a 30 weight.

The more viscosity improvers an oil has (the wider the range, 10-50) are not supposed to be a good thing from what I have read.
 

Ron

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I'm a Diesel oil convert (in my case Delvac 1) thanks to Tom's expertise. In fact, all of my vehicles now run Delvac 1.

Mobil 1 5w-30 and 10w-30 are in the low end of the 30w viscosity spec. I like the added cushion of a 40w and the extra additives are a nice bonus.

Thanks Tom!
 

cgmaster

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The question I was trying to ask is why are you using 5w-40 instead of 10w-30. It seems that when the engine is running the 40weight oil may be to thick to properly lubricate the engine. Also I was worried about the lifters. Since they opperate on oil pressure I was worried they may not work properly since the oil is thicker when the engine is hot.
 

Tom F&L GoR

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cg, although the "W" number was meant to designate the performance at cold temperatures, as a rule of thumb, it predicts the pumping effort to circulate the oil around the engine. So a 5W takes less horsepower than a 10W and gets to all those engine parts a little sooner.

The second number was designed to predict the oil film thickness when the oil is under pressure in a bearing, so a 40 will have a greater oil film thickness than a 30. The problem you are describing is when folks use a single grade - then the oil is too thick to circulate properly, even though it would be fine once it got there.

And the little added thing to know is that when a 5W30 is cold, it's thicker than a hot 5W40, so not to worry about excess oil pressure, pumping up lifters, or anything else.
 

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