Paging all track guys...brake question

[ElDiablo Viper]

On Mon and Tus I took my car to Watkins Glen. I had a lot of fun but at the end of the first day my brake pedal started going to the floor. The next day I had to pump the pedal before breaking.
I had Porsche cooling ducts, PFC red in front and stock pads on the back, ss brake lines and DOT 4 fluid. The temp was about 40 deg.
What have you done to fix this problem? Should I go with Stoptech package because this is not fixable?

 

[SoCal Rebell]

Sounds to me like you either have air in the lines and she needs to be bled or you may of boiled the brake fluid. What kind of fluid you using? Check the WET boiling point. If you plan on doing more track events get the Stoptechs, I love em. Absolutely no fade, great bias and your pads last ALONG time.

 

[Ulysses]

I vote boiled brake fluid.

 

[GTS97]

Eldiablo, you boild your fluid just change it you will be fine
even though you have Porsche air deflectors the Glen is very ******* brakes

 

[ElDiablo Viper]

I think that it was boiled too. Bill P told me that there is some kind of cooler for the brake fluid. Does anybody have it?

 

[shifter]

I agree that you are probably boiling the fluid and have air in the lines.

Had the exact same problem. Researching the archives and taking advice from various proficient track personalities, I did the following: BM3 pads, Stoptech rotors, Stoptech SS lines, Castrol SRF fluid, Porsche deflectors, Roe Titanium pistons and Roe air deflectors.

I didn't try the brake mods in steps, but rather all at the same time. Can't say if any individual item contributed more than the other, but I can conclude that those changes combined fixed my brake fade problem. No fade, no boil, no warping, just solid brakes. I found that I don't even need to bleed the brakes while at the track.

-My experience, and I would recommend those brake mods to anyone.

 

[toddt]

I guess I want to race at a place where I can stay bone-stock.

I think this leaves out Laguna.

Perhaps autocrossing is for me?

 

[99t1]

Why get StopTechs when you have the advantage of ABS..save your money and get:

AP Racing Super 600 fluid
Brake Man #3 Pads
Archer duct kit

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Yep, sounds like you is one speedy dude, Diablo, and boiled fluid is easy to do in a Viper if you iz fastttt !!

 

[ElDiablo Viper]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bill Pemberton:
Yep, sounds like you is one speedy dude, Diablo, and boiled fluid is easy to do in a Viper if you iz fastttt !!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Funny, when I put my racing # 114 I was told by many forum guys that it was a wrong number for me. So I went with 666 plus a red tape on my lights. All Porsche and Vette guys said that the car looked scarrrrryyyy!

 

[Jim Hodel]

Shifter's advice sounds right on too me. I tried similar mods on my 99 GTS with the exception of using the much cheaper Motul 600 fluid, and Porterfiled R4s. I did not try the special caliper pistons.

Performance was much improved over stock, but in my opinion, still not proportionate with the rest of the car. I know there are lots of fast guys using stock brakes, but I installed the front Stoptech big caliper kit and Pagid Orange pads, and am glad I did.

I just got done driving at a Ferrari Club event at Laguna Seca and the brakes performed very well indeed. I had no fade, and good stopping power. I still had to watch for lock up, but I was pleased with the performance overall. I wasn't setting any track records, but was drving hard enough to test the brakes pretty thoroughly.

BTW, the Ferrari Club puts on a great event and there were quite a number of very cool cars.

Jim

 

[Rich Wesorick]

I'm with Morgan (99t1)... The cost difference is huge compared to the performance difference.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I'm with 99t1.

Save even more money by using $8 air intake ducts for brake cooling.

 

[PMUM]

I totally disagree. Porsche defectors are nearly useless and the stock brakes really do ****. I ran a LOT of track events in 3 years with my '98 Viper with just the aforementioned setup (deflectors, pads, better fluid) and I would've saved a bundle if I had just bought a Stop-Tech kit.

First, if you're driving hard, you only have no more than 3-6 hard laps depending on the track before you boil the fluid. If you're getting more hard laps than that you need to drive harder. If you're not driving that hard then you'll want to upgrade so that your brakes will be there for you when you do. Just ask the guy in that famous Viper video who flipped over the wall twice because he lost his brakes about how well Porsche deflectors work.

Don't forget about the crazy amount of brake pads a stock setup eats up. I once went through 3 fresh sets of pads in two days at Road America and always killed at least 1 set every weekend regardless of the track. My first set of Stop-Tech pads lasted over 6 full weekends! I couldn't believe it. The pads seem to have 3 times the mass of a stock pad and the brake temps are so much cooler that the pad doesn't degenerate from crazy heat.

Also, the best part is that I don't have to bleed brakes every track day and constantly monitor the pad wear. When it's 95 degrees outside, the last thing I want to do is change the pads and fluid all of the time. The hassle factor alone was worth the money to me.

Finally, the car is way easier to modulate (ABS or not) and threshold brake with some actual rear brake bias. Stopping distances, especially with Hoosiers, will drop significantly after the brakes get warm and you'll also have much more confidence.

 

[SoCal Rebell]

I absolutely 100% agree with PMUM. I've never driven an ABS Viper on the track until last weeks open track challenge where I drove a stock '02 at 7 different tracks and I can tell you this the brakes sucked (sorry John) compared to my non-abs '00 with stoptechs. There is little pedal feedback and hard to threshold brake. If you do many track events the cost of NOT having to replace pads will pay for the system over time and Stoptech's customer service is second to none.

 

[onerareviper]

PMUM, SoCal Rebel1,

Do you guys have the 4-wheel upgrade, or just the fronts?

And what are the differences in performance between 2-wheel, 4-wheel upgrade? Primarily the major differences, as that 4-wheel upgrade is a lotta doe.

Thanks in advance.

 

[ElDiablo Viper]

I'm going with 4 Stoptech setup. I don't want to do it just like I did on the Vette. Upgrading and upgrading costs too much. I'll go with the best one from the start.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I didn't know the ABS brakes were still so horrible. I've never had them and figured they must be decent since everybody seemed to brag about them.

I made gradual improvements on my 97. I liked doing it this way so I could see for myself.

For the past year I've been running Stoptech fronts and just stepped up to Pagid RS 14. What a huge difference. One set of pads for the whole Iowa Viper Days weekend and they stopped like a...well, you know. I still don't get enough rear brake though. Guess I'll have to pull an O-ring for that.

70K car or not, I can't afford the $800 brake cooling kit right now. I'll keep using my $8 intake ducts until I can afford better.

 

[SoCal Rebell]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by onerareviper:
PMUM, SoCal Rebel1,

Do you guys have the 4-wheel upgrade, or just the fronts?

And what are the differences in performance between 2-wheel, 4-wheel upgrade? Primarily the major differences, as that 4-wheel upgrade is a lotta doe.

Thanks in advance.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yo onerareviper, how da ladies treating you? PMUM and I both have the 4 wheel kit, mainly because of the countless hours they spent to get the bias right. I, like you considered skimping and getting just the fronts and then putting my stock front calipers on the back but in the end decided to do all four and am REALLY happy I did. The bias is soooo good I've never locked em up, even under veerrry hard braking. It was kinda funny the first time out with them on I was going 135-140 down the front straight at Willow Springs into the 90 degree left I hit my brake in my usual zone and came up 4 car lengths short of my turn in point

.

 

[99t1]

A friend named EM, kindly explained this three times until it got through my thick scull...according to him, the only advantage a bigger caliper/rotor/pad such as Stop Tech has over the factory 01 and 02 ABS set up is heat dissipation. The Stop Tech rotor has directional fins that help remove heat...too bad Dodge can't OEM these.

As far as actual braking...if both systems can lock up a wheel...meaning your range is from 0 (no brake) to lock up (100% brake) then both systems can do the full job of stopping the wheel. Believe it or not, better braking has nothing to do with larger pad surface area or more pistons...provided the wheel can be locked up. Better breaking is getting to the threshold every time. An old used Thunderbird pad or a big Pagid will do the same job.

ABS is a great advantage over non-ABS because you can ultimately threshold brake every time and hence achieve better performance out of the brakes. For a "hack" like me, ABS has saved me $$$ on front right Hoosiers alone, besides the safety factor and better laps.

Yes...excessive heat can boil fluid and cause the brake systems to fail but good fluid and proper ducting (Porsche deflectors are useless) usually solves this...AT LEAST IN MY EXPERIENCE OF 30-40 MINUTE RACES. Maybe I would trade the factory ABS for the cooler brakes if I was running endurance races where pad life is more critical.

Changing fluids and pads is part of the process that doesn't go away by adding big brake upgrades, especially at the Glen. Any brake set up can still boil if not vented well. Yes…Stop Techs probably do require less of this maintenance but in my opinion (and Erik's) the ABS advantage far outweighs the better heat dissipation and pad life for my purposes.

If your signature did not list "02 GTS", I would have just recommended Stop Tech's too...I also believe they offer the best aftermarket kit. If I still had my 96 GTS, I would probably get them too.

Maybe the Stop Tech kit retains your ABS??? and all this is moot…THAT would be great!

 

[PMUM]

I'm not sure what Erik was conveying to you Morgan, but that guy has spent more time with my '01 ACR than I have and he recommended and installed the Stop-Tech kit. The big difference in stopping distances are gained through actually using the rear wheels to slow the car down. The additional rear bias (over stock) is definitely noticable.

I've raced my '01 with and without the Stop-Tech kit and can assure you that the car will stop better and quicker because the rear wheels are actually helping slow the car down. Just think, how often do you change rear pads in relation to fronts (I probably went through 15-20 front sets with the stock setup for every rear pad swap)? Also, the brake temps are a lot closer front to rear with the Stop-Tech kit (usually 900ish front, 600ish rear) opposed to stock.

The best part about it with the newer cars is that not only do you retain the ABS with the Stop-Tech kit, the temps are kept lower so you don't melt the sensors like John Dearing and I both did with stock brakes, so it actually helps with the ABS cars. Our fronts got so hot with the stock setup the ABS failed on both of our cars when the brakes got too hot.

Most of us will agree that it mostly depends on the amount of track time you do. Going through $200-500 in front stock pads in a weekend was getting absurd, as was bleeding fluid every other session. Because the temps are so much lower, I normally bleed the brakes at the beginning of a weekend and I'm done. When I do bleed it, the Motul isn't dark brown (like it was stock) because the front temps are a couple hundred degrees cooler.

Just my 2c.

 

[99t1]

Hey Paul,
I agree that the bias adjustment must give you more rear braking, hence better stopping distance..I can't change that with my set up but if I could wouldn't it throw off the computer since it is set to modulate based on the factory bias?

 

[Rich Wesorick]

Paul makes a very compelling argument with regard to number of pad changes, brake bleeds, etc. I guess it depends on how much track time you expect to do...

 

[Jim Hodel]

I don't see why I would pay $70,000 for a car like the Viper and then limp along using sub-standard brakes in order to save $2,500. The factory brakes on the Viper are lousy. I just don't see it as my 'red badge of courage' to put up with the lack of stopping power. My Z28 has a great ALCON system and when my Viper brakes were stock, I'd fly off the track if I used the same braking points I use in the Z28.

Jim

 

[Ulysses]

As I understand it, the ABS in the Viper only cares about cycles.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PMUM:
The additional rear bias (over stock) is definitely noticable.

how often do you change rear pads in relation to fronts (I probably went through 15-20 front sets with the stock setup for every rear pad swap)?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I need more rear brake too. How does Stoptech adjust the rear bias? I have Stoptech fronts. When I look at their website, the three packages they list all use the same ST40 four piston calipers. Does this mean all I need to do is install the rear brake kit and I'll have the correct bias for more rear brake? I would've thought you'd need to change a front piston or master cylinder.

 

[Henry Cone]

Chuck, StopTech modifies the bias between the front and the rear by changing the piston diameters from stock. More specifically, they use a smaller than stock front piston size to reduce the stock too heavy front bias. So as long as your front caliper piston diameters are the same as the ones that they sell with their 4 wheel kit you should be able to add their rear brakes and have the bias that they designed into the system.

I hope that this helps!!

 

[toddt]

My eyes are opened. PMUM's explanation was quite complelling.

I think I'm going to have to consider removing that "completely stock" from my sig.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

That's what I figured Henry, but the calipers for all of their sets is ST40. It throws me off because I would think there would be some type of designation between the fronts and the backs. Like ST40-R or something like that. I just want to make sure I get the correct rear calipers.

 

[SoCal Rebell]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck 98 RT/10:
That's what I figured Henry, but the calipers for all of their sets is ST40. It throws me off because I would think there would be some type of designation between the fronts and the backs. Like ST40-R or something like that. I just want to make sure I get the correct rear calipers.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chucky contact Matt Wiess at Stoptech, he will be happy to give you all the answers. I can tell you this the front a back caliper are the same size and use the same pad, meaning the rear Stoptech pad is about 400% larger then stock!