Shifting Help - man, I ****...

sbkim

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Ok, let me set the stage. This old lady in newer Mustang GT lines up next to me at a stop light. I thought surely she won't want to race me but sure enough, as the light turns green she peels out. I caught up to her by 65mph and I thought I'll show you what my car can do and downshifted from 4th to 2nd (I think). I guess I was in a hurry and didn't match rev and next thing you know I am almost flying out of the front window -as if I hit the brakes hard-- and I hear my tires squealing. I was so embarassed. I am hoping my car didn't over-rev. I take it this happened because I downshifted too aggressively? I did this once before when I accidently shifted into 1st slowing down from 35mph... it felt like I slammed on my brakes... How bad is this on the car??

So, how do you execute a smooth downshift? You push in the clutch, downshift into lower gear, you blip the throttle, let out the clutch, and you floor the gas? Is that the correct order? Also, you shouldn't have to fully depress (ie. to the floor) clutch during shifts, right?

Thanks!
 

ViperGTS

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Unfortunately, my Viper has to go into hibernation soon - however, a VW GOLF (70hp!!!) is waiting for you with a 5-speed manu to practice...j/k

I will call you next week.
 
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sbkim

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ViperGTS - I knew I can count on you :) I am back!!!

I am thinking about renting a 911 over a weekend and learn to do some 6000RPM clutch drops :laugh:

Seriously, I do have MGW knob and it hasn't helped my shifting at all. Does my downshift technique above make sense???
 

Magicboy2

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Not to sound condescending but 2nd should be one of the easier gears to hit- hard to the left then down. If this confuses you, you shouldn't be trying to race people at stoplights. :)

I can understand that the car pulled back pretty hard if you hit 2nd without matching RPMs at 65 mph. If you have a stock rear gear, then you weren't at all overrevving your engine, as 2nd gear can take you to over 75 mph.

What you need to do is, pay attention to where your motor sits in each gear at various speeds. Eventually, it should become second nature to you, that at X speed in Y gear, your engine should be turning about Z RPMs. Once you can do this, it's just a question of putting in the clutch, giving the throttle a good enough stab to get the RPMs to just ABOVE where you want them, shift, then let the cluch back out. You'll be stickin' it to those old ladies in no time. :D
 

Y2K5SRT

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If you were going from 4th, you put it into 1st - not 2nd. It is virtually impossible to miss a sequential shift and hit odd-to-odd or even-to-even gears since they are right next to each other. As to missing the others, I have seen it much more on upshifting from 3rd to 4th, as many, many owners have mistakenly dropped it back into 2nd during the heat of the moment. I have also seen people go from 2nd back to 1st instead of 3rd - also one wild ride.

It really does take practice and calm shifting. Trying to "force" the gears often seems to end up in the wrong one. I am totally clueless on how the mechanics of it work, but it seems that the car naturally wants to go in the correct gear if you guide it easily. Or maybe that is because I am at one with my car. :D

Now that you are back in Kansas, let me know if you want to get together and make some practice runs. The weather is supposed to be pretty awesome the next couple days...
 

SingleMalt

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Hey man, save up and go to a track school like Bragg Smith -- you will get your money's worth!

Mike
 

Andrew/USPWR

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I hate it when your racing someone and go from 3rd to 2nd. Instead of 4th.
THAT HURTS :eek:
Done that a few times. Now I turn my hand over so my palm is on the left side of the shifter when I pull it into 4th.






2000 GTS Steel Grey
Six piston Bier claws up front, front brakes in back
Quaife Differential, GKH half shafts, alloy fly wheel,
short throw shifter, polished intakes, K&N air filters, Optima battery,
 

SNKEBIT

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So, how do you execute a smooth downshift? You push in the clutch, downshift into lower gear, you blip the throttle, let out the clutch, and you floor the gas? Is that the correct order? Also, you shouldn't have to fully depress (ie. to the floor) clutch during shifts, right?

Thanks!

You should be giving it gas before you let the clutch out. Probably about 1/4 throttle should be a good starting point, a little practice & you'll figure it out soon enough! :2tu: and no, you shouldn't have to put the
clutch pedal "all" the way to the floor.
so now go practice so you can spank "gramma"!!!!!!!! :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
 
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sbkim

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Thanks guys for the reply. I guess simple rule of thumb is practice. I just wish I can practice at someone else's expsense :laugh: Thank god most rental cars in Europe are stick.

Y2k3SRT - I think you may be right, may be in the heat of the moment I hit 1st rather than 2nd - doh!!! I may have to take you up on that offer! The bad thing is I won't be back until January :(

Ok so let me rephrase my question - how much damage going from 4th to 1st around 55mph? Side note, I didn't have my foot on the gas when I was doing this (i.e., just coasting and downshifted, and immediately diengaged the clutch). Car is running fine with no vibration etc.
 
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sbkim

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Does below seem right for stock gears on 02 Viper? It seems like I am reving above 2Kprm when I going 69mph in 5th gear - more like 2.5K rpm...

RPM 1 2 3 4 5 6
2000 19 29 39 51 69 102
2100 20 30 41 53 72 107
2200 21 31 43 56 76 112
2300 22 33 45 58 79 117
2400 23 34 47 61 82 122
2500 24 36 49 64 86 127
2600 25 37 51 66 89 132
2700 26 39 53 69 93 137
2800 27 40 55 71 96 142
2900 28 41 57 74 100 147
3000 29 43 59 76 103 153
3100 30 44 61 79 106 158
3200 31 46 63 81 110 163
3300 32 47 65 84 113 168
3400 32 49 66 86 117 173
3500 33 50 68 89 120 178
3600 34 51 70 92 124 183
3700 35 53 72 94 127 188
3800 36 54 74 97 131 193
3900 37 56 76 99 134 198
4000 38 57 78 102 137 203
4100 39 59 80 104 141 208
4200 40 60 82 107 144 214
4300 41 61 84 109 148 219
4400 42 63 86 112 151 224
4500 43 64 88 114 155 229
4600 44 66 90 117 158 234
4700 45 67 92 119 161 239
4800 46 69 94 122 165 244
4900 47 70 96 125 168 249
5000 48 71 98 127 172 254
5100 49 73 100 130 175 259
5200 50 74 102 132 179 264
5300 51 76 104 135 182 269
5400 52 77 106 137 186 275
5500 53 79 108 140 189 280
5600 54 80 110 142 192 285
5700 54 81 111 145 196 290
5800 55 83 113 147 199 295
5900 56 84 115 150 203 300
6000 57 86 117 153 206 305
6100 58 87 119 155 210 310
6200 59 89 121 158 213 315
 

Miles B

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Ok so let me rephrase my question - how much damage going from 4th to 1st around 55mph? Side note, I didn't have my foot on the gas when I was doing this (i.e., just coasting and downshifted, and immediately diengaged the clutch). Car is running fine with no vibration etc.

So you had no gas at all, either when the clutch was in, or when you let it out? Yep, that's gonna hurt every time. Probably won't hurt the car too much unless you do it regularly. To drop it back a couple gears and fly, you'll need to step on the clutch, get the engine up to the speed it'll be doing in the new gear (pretty high up the range), then as you let the clutch out and it grabs, steadily add more gas.
 

KepRght

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WOW!!! STOP NOW AND DO THE FOLLOWING THINGS BEFORE YOU ATTEMPT TO RACE AGAIN

1)Take driving school with one on one instruction.
2)buy a cheap 5.0 5 speed to tear up.

You can kill yourself very easily with a bad downshift in one of two ways. (my friend in highschool cut off his legs with the first method, how do you spell wheel chair for life?)

pick one:
-You can break your driveshaft which turns into a 150 pound blender cutting through your car, and your flesh. Not cool.
-You hit a corner on a mountain road and try to impress your passenger with a downshift around a corner and hit the wrong gear. Bam, Your flying sideways with no traction right over the edge of the cliff and down the side of the mountain. If you dont have a paracute your splattered into a couple bloody chunks that some pore firefighter will need to clea up.

What you need to do is learn the speed of each gear.

The way to find this out is to rev the motor while in each gear until it hits the red line. Now you know what the max speed and the revs are, after a year or so of this you should have a good feeling of the revs and gears.

Good Luck, And I hope you dont cut off your legs any time soon.

PS. Think about getting a drive shaft safety loop, keeps the driveshaft from cutting through the car if you get too agressive.
 

ChrisXoxide

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Downshifting is a pretty basic thing man. You don't need to "blip" the throttle, you can let the clutch bite gently into the gear and raise the revs for you (without it being sudden like dropping the clutch).

Or, you can do like me and sort of give the gas as you are easy the clutch out. Its all a split second type of thing. I rev match, don't hear me wrong, but its all just an estimation sort of game.

Sounds like all you did was drop the clutch hard, and your tires bit the ground, perhaps even barked, and because you WERENT pushing the gas, you got thrown forward. Thats what happens when an engine turning 4800 rpm is let sit without acceleration. If you had just been giving gas (even without a rev match), you would have been in great powerband on your way to a third gear shift.

Go practice and see how your car works. Do the same thing again, and DROP the clutch. You will hear you tires bark and you will be thrown forward. At your 2nd gear 65mph though, your engine is turning in the 4000s, no where near overrevving. At the point of overrevving, your tires can actually be spinning because they can't "catch up" in time. Very dangerous. Once you learn your car you can catch the clutch before you overrev, even if you miss the gear.

Ive almost pushed released the clutch into 1st gear at like 65mph, but I didnt let it out in time to catch up to the drivetrain. (The only thing that was in risk on that scenario was the overrevving flywheel).

Correct?
 

ChrisXoxide

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I just read now that you thought you shifted into first. This explains you being thrown forward quite roughly.

If you did 65mph in first you overrevved your engine, your clutch, your flywheel, and every other piece of your car that wasn't made to do 65mph in first gear. Your first reaction should have been to push the clutch back in and get the car out of gear.
 

Pictureman

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KepRght
One of my racer friends had a drive shaft break and the shaft came through the car onto his leg and kept chewing a hole in his leg until he could get the car stopped. On a dirt race car not a viper. Ouch!!
 

KepRght

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KepRght
One of my racer friends had a drive shaft break and the shaft came through the car onto his leg and kept chewing a hole in his leg until he could get the car stopped. On a dirt race car not a viper. Ouch!!


that is some sad stuff, I remember when my buddy came to school for the first time in his wheelchair with no legs
 
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sbkim

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chris

you are right. I did push the clutch in the moment I felt/heard the car nearly come to a stop. I think I was probably going no faster than 55mph...Thanks again for the driving hints. My friend and I are planning to go out for some spirited driving and teach me the right way :)

Keprght - wow, you are scraying the crap out of me now.

Lee

It all happened very quick but I was trying to downshift from 4th to 3rd and I got 1st instead....
 

Paolo Castellano

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Ok, let me set the stage. This old lady in newer Mustang GT lines up next to me at a stop light. I thought surely she won't want to race me but sure enough, as the light turns green she peels out. I caught up to her by 65mph and I thought I'll show you what my car can do and downshifted from 4th to 2nd (I think). I guess I was in a hurry and didn't match rev and next thing you know I am almost flying out of the front window -as if I hit the brakes hard-- and I hear my tires squealing. I was so embarassed. I am hoping my car didn't over-rev. I take it this happened because I downshifted too aggressively? I did this once before when I accidently shifted into 1st slowing down from 35mph... it felt like I slammed on my brakes... How bad is this on the car??

So, how do you execute a smooth downshift? You push in the clutch, downshift into lower gear, you blip the throttle, let out the clutch, and you floor the gas? Is that the correct order? Also, you shouldn't have to fully depress (ie. to the floor) clutch during shifts, right?

Thanks!

sbkim,

I would not worry about over revving the car once or twice. I have friends who have done it from time to time and their cars are fine.

I think you meant you shifted from 3rd into 2nd instead of 4th if you were trying to catch her.==> The easy fix for the 3-4 shift would be to put your elbow into the 3-4 shift alignment point after the 1-2 shift. THat way, the 2-3 shift is straight up and the 3-4 shift is straight back.

As far as a smooth downshift is concerned, there are a couple of things you want to keep in mind.

1. You need to be smooth as to not upset the car.

==> If you downshift at a speed above the redline of the engine for that gear, the rear wheels will lock up a. potentially spinning the car, b. if they grab the car can over rev and exceed the capacity of the valvetrain: when this happens the valve springs can no longer keep the proper timing between the valvetrain and the pistons. To the degree the top and bottom end become out of synch, will determine the overall degree of damage to the engine.

2. You must know the speed limit of the car for each gear: Obviously you do not want to exceed the speed limit in any gear.
==> If you are above the limit, you must use the brakes to slow the car before releasing the clutch

Heel and toe downshifting is how race car drivers match the revs while slowing the car quickly and downshifting at the same time.

Heel and toe downshifting is simply 1. Brake(inner ball of foot on brake pedal) 2. Clutch in 3. Downshift 4. Blip throttle(with outer ball of foot) 5. release clutch

After this sequence, depending on the timing, the engine revs should be almost perfectly matching the exact engine speed at that MPH if you just happened to be going that fast in that gear in a normal street driving situation.

A sidenote here is that in normal street driving, you should always downshift in reverse order from the gear you are in at the moment, ie 5-4-3-2-1.

Without the ability to heel and toe, and skipping a gear in the downshift sequence, you are always in danger of spinning the car.

As far as how far to depress the clutch is concerned, you only need to go the distance to the floor that allows for the full disengagement of the clutch.

This is only for people who have mastered basic shifting.

Trying this at home so to speak without sufficient skills could lead to ruining synchros and grinding the teeth off gears when you make a mistake.

Definitely not worth it IMO.

Up and downshifting is a rythm that is learned and felt whose speed can be incrementally increased based on feel. :2tu:
 

Miles B

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Paolo,
doesn't heel and toe also involve a quick double clutch as you blip to bring up the speed of the layshaft and output gear, before you slide the lower gear in?
 

Torquemonster

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Paolo,
doesn't heel and toe also involve a quick double clutch as you blip to bring up the speed of the layshaft and output gear, before you slide the lower gear in?

Double clutching is an old technique that dates back to non synchro box days. If racers did that now you could eat a packed lunch in the time it'd take to shift gears during a race. You just blip the throttle while clutch is engaged then released when engine rpms match what they will be as clutch grabs. Its split second stuff, and not even essential of you are smooth off the clutch.

I'd first practise getting softly off the clutch - that way you can feel you've cocked up before you start locking up and get the clutch back in.

I was always taught to shift "one-pause-one" meaning I always pause as I pass neutral then slip it into the next gear. The pause is so swift it does not really slow the shift down much but it extends trans life immeasurably from the guys who just pull the shifter straight thru.
 

Paolo Castellano

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Paolo,
doesn't heel and toe also involve a quick double clutch as you blip to bring up the speed of the layshaft and output gear, before you slide the lower gear in?

Miles, with synchros, double clutching is not necessary.

On the downshifts, I never double clutched the straight cut gears, no synchros Jerico transmission either. To do a clutchless downshift, all I had to do was release the load on the gears, go to neutral, put the revs slightly higher than where they would be at that speed(MPH) in the gear I would be shifting down into....... As the revs come down, the trans goes into the next gear like butter==> not a clunk, like you can't even tell you downshifted!

I never did clutchless road race downshifts with the Jerico though. I remember seeing guys on speedvision just jamming it into the next lower gear while revving to try to match. It was clear to me they really did not care how close they got. I am sure those transmissions get rebuilt after every race. I am sure Juan Manuel Fangio would never have shifted like that!
 
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sbkim

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Paolo

"If you downshift at a speed above the redline of the engine for that gear, the rear wheels will lock up a. potentially"

What do you mean wheels locking up? WIll they be similar to hitting the brakes!?!! This could explain why I heard tires bark when I did this.

Thanks
 
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